2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[Pablo Novi]

Somebody this very evening made a post that pointed out a QUINTUPLE-DOUBLE by Wilt (in a game for which they counted blocks). As usual; I neither made a copy of that post nor can I find it.

I don't even remember which thread it was in. Getting old really just SUCKS!

Anybody point me to that post; or can re-post the info it contained? Much appreciated.

lol

Seventh post
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1545106&start=20

Thanx so much.

But now I have just one more plea for help... If I weren't so helplessly hopeless AND USED TO IT; I'd be terribly embarrassed.
Well, I AM terribly embarrassed - but it can't be helped ! (lol) ...

Now that I have the post; to which BLEEPING thread did I just promise to copy-paste it?

By way of explanation (yeah right!) I'm copying-pasting a post I just made in that other thread - you just so helpfully linked me to.

IF this clarifies for anybody anything at all - I guess that'd be something to be happy about.
Just read the following at your own risk:

Re: GOAT Trip Double Stat Line Ever
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Post#32 » by Pablo Novi » 5 minutes ago




markjay wrote:
Wilt Chamberlain:
3/18/1968 Sixers vs Lakers, W
53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks, 11 steals (24/29FG, 5/10FT)

I copied this off a board somewhere. The blocks and steals must be unofficial.
There's no end to my embarrassment this evening (why I should try to single out this evening as if it's some kind of exception - beats me ...)
I post asking about this, your, very post. I don't see this, your, very post. I go to some other thread; beg for some help find a copy of this, your, very post, made earlier in some other thread (I think/hope?). Somebody links me back here.

Now what do I do?

And I can't even thank THEM for linking back to here; because I can't find where-when they linked it/you for me.

It's late; I better call it a night - tomorrow could not be more humiliating!
Could it? lol

P.S. It SEEMS to me that when I originally saw a (your?) post about Wilt's game that it included the phrase: that night/game they did count blocks (unofficial though it was). Got any idea what I'm talking about? I sure don't!

lol

[antonac]

Curry beats Thunder, Houston and Spurs on the road without Durant. Best record nearly clinched. Still can't get a single MVP vote. Will anyone even bother to explain why they absolutely refuse to consider him? Stay tuned for not a lot of suspense in the "winning is irrelevant" thread.

Because the season is longer than this super hot stretch and those guys have been better than him throughout the course of the whole season. Is Curry better in a vacuum than Harden, RW, Kawhi? Yes. Has he had a better entire season? No.

I have no issues with Curry not being in the MVP running, but many people don't even give him the credit you're giving him and would claim Harden, Westrbook and Kawhi are better players, which imo they're clearly not.

[Impuniti]

Curry beats Thunder, Houston and Spurs on the road without Durant. Best record nearly clinched. Still can't get a single MVP vote. Will anyone even bother to explain why they absolutely refuse to consider him? Stay tuned for not a lot of suspense in the "winning is irrelevant" thread.

Because the season is longer than this super hot stretch and those guys have been better than him throughout the course of the whole season. Is Curry better in a vacuum than Harden, RW, Kawhi? Yes. Has he had a better entire season? No.

I have no issues with Curry not being in the MVP running, but many people don't even give him the credit you're giving him and would claim Harden, Westrbook and Kawhi are better players, which imo they're clearly not.

I don't know if those he's not a top 5 player anymore are more funny or cringe worthy to quote now, and there's been a lot of posts like that this season. But I feel the same as you overall. Steph's just not been as consistent as he was esp last season, regardless of his overall quality.

[jg77]

I'd be more upset with people saying Curry is the 2nd best player on his team. While KD is obviously more talented I think Curry is the better player. Curry is the Warriors system, if he goes down then the teams goes down. Warriors without KD...still a favorite to go the finals. Warriors without Curry...ehh not so much.

I was listening to ESPN LA and the 4 guys on voted 3 (Westbrook) - 1 (Harden) for the MVP. The media is really pushing for Westbrook to win. I don't necessarily agree that they're equally deserving. I think Harden should be the winner but I wouldn't be surprised if they're co-MVP's.

[Doctor MJ]

Curry beats Thunder, Houston and Spurs on the road without Durant. Best record nearly clinched. Still can't get a single MVP vote. Will anyone even bother to explain why they absolutely refuse to consider him? Stay tuned for not a lot of suspense in the "winning is irrelevant" thread.

Simple answer is that he hasn't been playing like this all season. You can argue what he's doing now is so impressive it should catapult him over the competition, but you have to at least recognize the change and its consequences on the MVP race.

Also, I always saw it as something of a given once Durant came to the Warriors that it would take something essentially perfect for one of them to win MVP. And perfection has not happened. The teams record is worse, Curry has much weaker stats than the previous year and went through a big slump, and Durant got hurt.


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[warriorschamps]

I'd be more upset with people saying Curry is the 2nd best player on his team. While KD is obviously more talented I think Curry is the better player. Curry is the Warriors system, if he goes down then the teams goes down. Warriors without KD...still a favorite to go the finals. Warriors without Curry...ehh not so much.

I was listening to ESPN LA and the 4 guys on voted 3 (Westbrook) - 1 (Harden) for the MVP. The media is really pushing for Westbrook to win. I don't necessarily agree that they're equally deserving. I think Harden should be the winner but I wouldn't be surprised if they're co-MVP's.

Agreed. Curry is what the Warriors go. Even though Durant is just as good if not a better player.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Curry shouldn't even finish top 5 in MVP voting. He's not having a season even better than John Wall and IT. Harden, Westbrook, Leonard, KD(before injury), and Lebron are having better years than him.

[Impuniti]

I'd be more upset with people saying Curry is the 2nd best player on his team. While KD is obviously more talented I think Curry is the better player. Curry is the Warriors system, if he goes down then the teams goes down. Warriors without KD...still a favorite to go the finals. Warriors without Curry...ehh not so much.

I was listening to ESPN LA and the 4 guys on voted 3 (Westbrook) - 1 (Harden) for the MVP. The media is really pushing for Westbrook to win. I don't necessarily agree that they're equally deserving. I think Harden should be the winner but I wouldn't be surprised if they're co-MVP's.

It was really disappointing when reading in the Warrior forum when people were saying that the system should change to fit around KD instead of Curry this season when KD was playing as he was. From Warrior fans.

Agreed. Curry is what the Warriors go. Even though Durant is just as good if not a better player.

I disagree. KD might get the better stats, but Curry impacts games far more than KD ever could (generally speaking). Only Lebron affects the team as much as Steph does but in other manners.

[K_chile22]

I'd be more upset with people saying Curry is the 2nd best player on his team. While KD is obviously more talented I think Curry is the better player. Curry is the Warriors system, if he goes down then the teams goes down. Warriors without KD...still a favorite to go the finals. Warriors without Curry...ehh not so much.

I was listening to ESPN LA and the 4 guys on voted 3 (Westbrook) - 1 (Harden) for the MVP. The media is really pushing for Westbrook to win. I don't necessarily agree that they're equally deserving. I think Harden should be the winner but I wouldn't be surprised if they're co-MVP's.

Seems like National media has been team Westbrook for the most part, while Local media has been team Harden. I think it will come down to second place votes
Hopefully Harden can get his wrist right and finish strong. A lot of voters have short attention spans lol

[The Box Office]

Westbrook is having a season for the ages. He's going to finish the season averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring. That's the first in NBA history and OKC has a respectable season record. That's historic league MVP stuff.

I don't even care what Harden is doing. He's having a great season, too, but his stats pale in comparison to Russell Westbrook.

[Shock Defeat]

Westbrook is having a season for the ages. He's going to finish the season averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring. That's the first in NBA history and OKC has a respectable season record. That's historic league MVP stuff.

I don't even care what Harden is doing. He's having a great season, too, but his stats pale in comparison to Russell Westbrook.

Harden has way better efficiency and averages more assists. Harden has better stats than Westbrook not including meaningless 2 rebounds.

[The-Power]

Simple answer is that he hasn't been playing like this all season. You can argue what he's doing now is so impressive it should catapult him over the competition, but you have to at least recognize the change and its consequences on the MVP race.

Yes, he struggled to some extent (relative to the high bar he set himself that is) in terms of individual shooting numbers but aside from the recent road trip the team has been incredible. So what happens if we look beyond the individual boxscore numbers? I'll argue that Curry hasn't lost one bit of his offensive impact irrespective of inferior boxscore numbers.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=53948641#p53948641
In this post I've broken down WOWY numbers and considering considerably larger samples for many line-ups they are more reliable than they have been in the past (especially regarding the Curry/Green collinearity) or at the beginning of the season. And well, Curry not only looks like the clear MVP of his own team which is again on pace to win 66-67 games again; the numbers even surprised me as someone who believes that most of the offense revolves around Curry.

Not saying Curry is the MVP of the league based on past voting behavior - something that lead to him being the unanimous MVP last year - but if we put less emphasis on boxscore production (and I know you're not particularly fond of boxscore metrics yourself) and narrative then Curry checks a lot of boxes. Team success, impact on his team, anchoring a GOAT-type level offense, 'goodness' as a player, versatility and demeanor to incorporate a recent an MVP and allowing all players to play to their strength and showing up against good teams far more often than not.

Harden, Westbrook and Leonard deserve the spotlight they are currently in - the MVP award belongs to one of them this year. But this doesn't mean Curry isn't playing at a level that warrants legitimate MVP considerations or that - narrative and raw production aside - he wouldn't be deserving. For the Warriors it's all about playoffs this year and beyond, though. Durant and Curry knew that they were extremely unlikely to be named MVP anytime soon when they decided to team up and that's totally fine by me.

Give Green his DPOY award, though. He would have been deserving two years ago and had the best argument among all players last year, imo. He's again up there with anybody and it would only feel right to see him finally receiving the award and recognition it comes with it.

MVP, COY, EOY or 6th-Man OY - those awards can all go to other players, coaches and organizations this year and I'd be totally fine with it even though the Warriors' have legitimate candidates for all the awards imo (minus COY but only because Mike D'Antoni and Brad Stevens - as well as Pop as always - are doing such an amazing job that deserves more recognition than what Kerr has done this particular year even though I've been and continue to be on team Team Kerr from day one and believe he's not only a phenomenal human being but also a great coach).

[bmurph128]

Westbrook is having a season for the ages. He's going to finish the season averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring. That's the first in NBA history and OKC has a respectable season record. That's historic league MVP stuff.

I don't even care what Harden is doing. He's having a great season, too, but his stats pale in comparison to Russell Westbrook.

Harden has way better efficiency and averages more assists. Harden has better stats than Westbrook not including meaningless 2 rebounds.

It's ironic to me that you say "averages more assists" and then "better stats not including meaningless 2 rebounds"..

So I could say that Harden averages a meaningless 1 more assist than Westbrook?

Westbrook's rebounds have been talked to death here, but I want to point out that OKC is the best rebounding team in the NBA - and HAS to be, because they're limited offensively. They can't afford to give up many 2nd chance points, and they need all the 2nd chance points they can get - that should be clear by watching them play.

So it's critical that they're the best rebounding team in the NBA, and Westbrook helps with that. People seem to forget that rebounding is a skill like anything else - there are several big men that are bad at it in the NBA.

And considering the difference in shooters between Houston and OKC, it's no surprise that Harden averages 1 more assist per game than Westbrook does.

That coupled with how much OKC falls apart without Westbrook - he's AT LEAST dead even with Harden for MVP.

[HotTubMike]

Westbrook is having a season for the ages. He's going to finish the season averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring. That's the first in NBA history and OKC has a respectable season record. That's historic league MVP stuff.

I don't even care what Harden is doing. He's having a great season, too, but his stats pale in comparison to Russell Westbrook.

Harden has way better efficiency and averages more assists. Harden has better stats than Westbrook not including meaningless 2 rebounds.

It's ironic to me that you say "averages more assists" and then "better stats not including meaningless 2 rebounds"..

So I could say that Harden averages a meaningless 1 more assist than Westbrook?

Westbrook's rebounds have been talked to death here, but I want to point out that OKC is the best rebounding team in the NBA - and HAS to be, because they're limited offensively. They can't afford to give up many 2nd chance points, and they need all the 2nd chance points they can get - that should be clear by watching them play.

So it's critical that they're the best rebounding team in the NBA, and Westbrook helps with that. People seem to forget that rebounding is a skill like anything else - there are several big men that are bad at it in the NBA.

And considering the difference in shooters between Houston and OKC, it's no surprise that Harden averages 1 more assist per game than Westbrook does.

That coupled with how much OKC falls apart without Westbrook - he's AT LEAST dead even with Harden for MVP.

Funny how that line of thinking didn't help Harden when he lead his team to 2nd in the West with an even worse team.

[bmurph128]

Harden has way better efficiency and averages more assists. Harden has better stats than Westbrook not including meaningless 2 rebounds.

It's ironic to me that you say "averages more assists" and then "better stats not including meaningless 2 rebounds"..

So I could say that Harden averages a meaningless 1 more assist than Westbrook?

Westbrook's rebounds have been talked to death here, but I want to point out that OKC is the best rebounding team in the NBA - and HAS to be, because they're limited offensively. They can't afford to give up many 2nd chance points, and they need all the 2nd chance points they can get - that should be clear by watching them play.

So it's critical that they're the best rebounding team in the NBA, and Westbrook helps with that. People seem to forget that rebounding is a skill like anything else - there are several big men that are bad at it in the NBA.

And considering the difference in shooters between Houston and OKC, it's no surprise that Harden averages 1 more assist per game than Westbrook does.

That coupled with how much OKC falls apart without Westbrook - he's AT LEAST dead even with Harden for MVP.

Funny how that line of thinking didn't help Harden when he lead his team to 2nd in the West with an even worse team.

Every year is different. But I will say that the Warriors beat the Rockets by 11 games that year - 67 wins to 56 wins - unless OKC falls apart, it seems like it will stay within 8 games or so.

Also, I know the Rockets had injuries that year, but they had 8 players - EIGHT - average double figure scoring per game. That's pretty insane.

Also, Dwight Howard, even though he only played half the season, was really good that year. I think that race should have been closer, but throughout history I wouldn't be surprised if every team that won 67 games had an MVP on it.

[StepBackCrack]

Co-MVP is a BS idea imo. It will be unfair to several strong MVPs candidates in the past. Kobe deserved to be a Co-MVP with Nash in 2006 for example (if voters did not care about team record). Kobe should have 2 MVPs if voters did not care about team record. Harden deserved to be Co-MVP with Steph as well in 2015. Gotta stay consistent. Harden should win it this season.

[cpower]

Curry shouldn't even finish top 5 in MVP voting. He's not having a season even better than John Wall and IT. Harden, Westbrook, Leonard, KD(before injury), and Lebron are having better years than him.

He absolutely should. He has a down year but his impact is still one of the best in the league. Better than IT and Wall, on par with Lebron and Kawhi. I will put him at No.5 right now , after Harden/Westbrook, Lebron, Kawhi and I am being generous to the two SFs.

[NaturalThunder]

Westbrook is having a season for the ages. He's going to finish the season averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring. That's the first in NBA history and OKC has a respectable season record. That's historic league MVP stuff.

I don't even care what Harden is doing. He's having a great season, too, but his stats pale in comparison to Russell Westbrook.

Harden has way better efficiency and averages more assists. Harden has better stats than Westbrook not including meaningless 2 rebounds.

Westbrook; 30.6 PER 56.9% AST%, 16.8 TRB%, 15.7% TOV%, 12.0 WS, .223 WS/48, 15.1 BPM, 11.1 VORP

Harden: 27.7 PER, 51.2% AST%, 12.1 TRB%, 19.6% TOV%, 14.4 WS, .255 WS/48, 10.3 BPM, 8.4 VORP

If you start delving into advanced numbers, then the numbers start to tip in Westbrook's favor. I didn't include efficiency numbers because you already mentioned them, but you're right, Harden does have an advantage when it comes to efficiency. However, the Thunder pretty much fall into shambles when Westbrook isn't on the court. OKC is -9.9 this year with Russ off the floor compared to the Rockets being +1.8 when Harden is off the floor.

[inquisitive]

these comebacks by RW might actually put him on top now. this will be a closer race.

[Impuniti]

Does it matter whose number 3, 4, 5 etc? The point is as of right now due to media and what's been shown, it's between WB and Harden.