Cubbies2120 wrote:eyeatoma wrote:Cubbies2120 wrote:See sig...these were literally your words. I guess a 20 game sample size changes your mind? Or rather, a 1 game sample size? What do we say about people who have their mind changed so quickly? There's a word for that, I'm sure we can find what that is
Because going from "Jokic is the best player in the world" - eyeatoma (your quote, I didn't login to your account and write it for you)...what changed in the 20 games they've both played since? What specifically made you completely re-evaluate your decision from last year's Finals, to the first ~20 or so games of the season (and Jokic's bad game last night)?
Because if you're setting the precedent of changing your mind every 20 games (or 1 game), then that means the best in the world can change from game to game...and we never get a consensus...?
So let me get this straight. Me saying Jokic is the best player int he world takes Embiid out of contention for the MVP?
LOl, tell that to LeBron who could have won far more MVPs as the best player then.
Jokic is the best because he's consistent. Embiid will be the best if he can translate his regular-season dominance to the playoffs. Until then it's Jokic, But by no means is Embiid not right up there for the MVP. it's probably interchangeable between Embiid/Jokic right now, with a slight lead for Embiid. In the end, stats, and record will come into play. Can Philly make a run for the #1 spot? Can the Nuggets become consistent again, they have their championship squad back minus Bruce Brown.
You have others who are nipping at their heels in SGA, Giannis, Hali and Luka, but in the end it'll be between those two again.
You completely ignored my question.
1. How many games does it take to swing the pendulum?
2. In these ~17 games, did one COMPLETELY fall off while the other rose?
3. You were HUGE on the MVP Voting odds being a measure of probability back in the day. Do we need to drag those posts back up? If not, are you admitting you were wrong then? Or are you still believing the odds are a big indicator? If so, Jokic is a pretty massive favorite right now compared to Embiid.
Embiid is not OUT OF THE CONVERSATION, absolutely not he's a top 3 player in the world. When he's playing like he is now, he's probably top 2 with Jokic IMO. But you just said "just because you're not top 1 doesn't mean you aren't in conversation for MVP" (I agree with you now when reading your point - point is taken - I am admitting my MISTAKE of framing my argument that way). I think we'll find common ground if we clearly articulate our stances:
Cubbies2120 believes that:
- Best player in the world (my opinion, and yours 17 games ago, Jokic)
will not always win MVP (and MVP
- Voting odds are a good INDICATOR (your words AND mine last year) of who will win
- Voting odds have Jokic (followed by Luka) as the biggest favorite
If I misunderstood ANY of these points above, I'd love to debate it - I'm trying to think more logically instead of emotionally as I have in the past - let's make it fun and debate
Edit - Also, I'll remove my sig because if your thoughts on the best in the world (not MVP) have changed, I don't want to misrepresent your current thoughts - people & ideas change. Let me know, in PM if you want.
1. I think we need atleast 50 to 60 games to make it clear who is in the lead. It's too early to tell right now. The pendulum is swinging back and forth as we speak.
2. No neither has fallen off, I do feel a slight lead to Embiid. Sixers are without their star, and have a replaced star in Maxey, who is still coming into his own. I feel this is another version of the Sixers right after Simmons left but before Harden arrived, and Embiid carried. This time Maxey is helping big time. Nuggets have been inconsistent. Jokic is passing, scoring and boarding great, but something is off. He seems frustrated. Maybe with Murray's constant injuries. Maybe that he hasn't gotten calls that he deserves (we saw the big flop). He just had one of the worst games in his career, but I do think it's still probably 1/2 Jokic/Embiid or back and forth.
3. Odds play a big role, I think that Vegas has a good pulse on how things are moving. Vegas had Jokic until the very end, until Embiid became relentless, and Jokic started taking games off, and sitting out last year. So they do play a big role at some point. It's another indicator. I think the straw poll also helps.
So to answer your question, right now the picture is far from clear. Think we need to get to all star break to form our first picture. The next 10 games after that will solidify it.
We shall see. I'm willing take emotion out of it as well. I think both of these guys are the best players in the world to be frank. I think Embiid has had **** luck, he succumbs to pressure in the playoffs, and has had some of the worst teammates/coaches in the playoffs compounding his injures. Jokic rises despite not having Murray in the playoffs, and does all he can do, even when Murray wasn't there, they were 1st/2nd round exits. When Murray was around they won a chip.
I feel like I want to see Embiid have one run were everything falls into place. That will be my final indicator on who is the best. If Embiid can't do it, then then I will 100% concede Jokic is better, until I guess Embiid finally does it, but even then, you have to take Jokic's consistency into consideration.
But it's hard with Embiid because so much of his past has been fraught with injury while Jokic's past prior to winning a chip, although not tremendous in success, was incredible in individual performance.
