RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ninjamilk23]

New generations of fans will look at Lebron's 45k points, 12k assists and rebounds, along with his vastly better stats and physical attributes, and wonder what exactly Jordan's argument is.

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historuc super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

[One_and_Done]

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historuc super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

[MavsDirk41]

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

Less shot attempts?

Jordan attempted 24,537 field goal attempte in his career
James so far has attempted 29,881 field goal attempts in his career

Unless the internet is wrong this is what i found in less than a minute. Jordan averaged more field goal attempte per game but overall James has over 5 thousand more shot attempts.

You’re not understanding again lol

When LeBron passed Jordan… not right this second… I believe LeBron did it on about 1300 less shots. Meaning LeBron scored the same amount as Jordan while shooting 1300 less shots. That’s wild. So we can assume that if LeBron shot as much as Jordan, he would have a wild amount of points on top of what he already has

Are you talking about the all time scoring list? Lol what are you talking about?

[MavsDirk41]

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historuc super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

Do you make it a priority to take a dig at Kobe in every post you make on here lol? So Kobe should be embarrassed but James shouldn’t be although he was outplayed by Wade and Dirk?

[KyRo23]

Less shot attempts?

Jordan attempted 24,537 field goal attempte in his career
James so far has attempted 29,881 field goal attempts in his career

Unless the internet is wrong this is what i found in less than a minute. Jordan averaged more field goal attempte per game but overall James has over 5 thousand more shot attempts.

You’re not understanding again lol

When LeBron passed Jordan… not right this second… I believe LeBron did it on about 1300 less shots. Meaning LeBron scored the same amount as Jordan while shooting 1300 less shots. That’s wild. So we can assume that if LeBron shot as much as Jordan, he would have a wild amount of points on top of what he already has

Are you talking about the all time scoring list? Lol what are you talking about?

Bro stop responding to me these experiences have been absolutely horrible

[MavsDirk41]

You’re not understanding again lol

When LeBron passed Jordan… not right this second… I believe LeBron did it on about 1300 less shots. Meaning LeBron scored the same amount as Jordan while shooting 1300 less shots. That’s wild. So we can assume that if LeBron shot as much as Jordan, he would have a wild amount of points on top of what he already has

Are you talking about the all time scoring list? Lol what are you talking about?

Bro stop responding to me these experiences have been absolutely horrible

Ill gladly stop responding to your nonsense

[KyRo23]

Are you talking about the all time scoring list? Lol what are you talking about?

Bro stop responding to me these experiences have been absolutely horrible

Ill gladly stop responding to your nonsense

I always have to explain each little point because you don't understand anything you're responding to

please save us both the time

[MavsDirk41]

Bro stop responding to me these experiences have been absolutely horrible

Ill gladly stop responding to your nonsense

I always have to explain each little point because you don't understand anything you're responding to

please save us both the time

Oh ok your hurting my feelings little fella

[One_and_Done]

:noway:

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

Do you make it a priority to take a dig at Kobe in every post you make on here lol? So Kobe should be embarrassed but James shouldn’t be although he was outplayed by Wade and Dirk?

Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson distribution role, to compensate for Wade's inability to play offball. That was a mistake, he should have just told Wade to move aside and been the focal point on O, but it stemmed out of selflessness. It also almost worked. The Heat were nearly up 3-0, in which case they'd have won (even though they had no business winning that series).

[michaelm]

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historic* super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Its funny how you hold on to that punch incident but either ignore or don't know that Mike apologized to Steve the same exact day that it happened, then he and Kerr moved past it, (as should you but it really doesn't matter) and went on to literally win the 1997 championship together. Mike went to Steve during a time out and trusted him with that game winning shot and threw the man the pass himself to win it all for Chicago. If thats not great leadership nothing is. He was a damn good leader. Clearly you don't know what great leadership is if you're going to call Jordan a terrible one.

Mike wasn't a perfect man at all, but his teammates respected him while they played together year after year. Before most recently because of the stuff with Jordans son messing with Pippens wife, Scottie always had nothing but positive things to say about his experience of playing with the Bulls and Jordan. He called Mike the greatest of all time. Mike may not have been their buddy, but always had that team ready to give it 110% along with him. That's how they as an overall core was as great as they were within that tringle offense system.

As far as your stuff about the 80s Lakers goes, They were absolutely different. Kareem was the only established star with a ring to his name before Magic got there. He had 1 ring. 1. in 1971, after that the Bucks lost every single other time, then he jumped to the Lakers and didn't get a single ring until young Magic showed up. Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and the rest of those guys build a actual team chemistry that is in no way shape or form anything similar to Lebron jumping to other teams to join up with Wade and Bosh or Kyrie and Love. You've made it pretty clear that you don't know much about this stuff. so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Adios.

Kareem is arguably the 2nd best player of all-time after Lebron, it's a no brainer to take him over Wade (who started declining quickly once Lebron arrived). Whether Worthy was 'established' is meaningless, Wemby wasn't 'established' when he entered the league. He's still better than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh.

You can win titles while being a terrible leader, and a terrible person. Jordan and Kobe are 2 good examples of that, heck Kareem is a good example if that.

So despite LeBron choosing his coaches and having more control over the composition of his teams than pretty much any player ever, including having his own player agency, Jordan should be downgraded in a comparison with LeBron because he had “stacked” teams ?. As has been said two threepeat teams were built around Jordan, Pippen developed next to him, Rodman who nobody wanted played a great role on the second threepeat etc etc. I also don’t recall him throwing team mates under the bus as LeBron has repeatedly done when his teams started going south when he was an active player

[MavsDirk41]

:noway:

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

Do you make it a priority to take a dig at Kobe in every post you make on here lol? So Kobe should be embarrassed but James shouldn’t be although he was outplayed by Wade and Dirk?

Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson distribution role, to compensate for Wade's inability to play offball. That was a mistake, he should have just told Wade to move aside and been the focal point on O, but it stemmed out of selflessness. It also almost worked. The Heat were nearly up 3-0, in which case they'd have won (even though they had no business winning that series).

Lol has James ever lost a game or series in your eyes because he stunk up the joint? (All players have) Including the playoffs Miami was 70-27 before the finals. You mean they didn’t understand how to run the offense effectively the first 97 games but still won 70 of them? It only didnt work in the finals?

[Homer38]

:noway:


Do you make it a priority to take a dig at Kobe in every post you make on here lol? So Kobe should be embarrassed but James shouldn’t be although he was outplayed by Wade and Dirk?

Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson distribution role, to compensate for Wade's inability to play offball. That was a mistake, he should have just told Wade to move aside and been the focal point on O, but it stemmed out of selflessness. It also almost worked. The Heat were nearly up 3-0, in which case they'd have won (even though they had no business winning that series).

Lol has James ever lost a game or series in your eyes because he stunk up the joint? (All players have) Including the playoffs Miami was 70-27 before the finals. You mean they didn’t understand how to run the offense effectively the first 97 games but still won 70 of them? It only didnt work in the finals?

LeBron was awful in the finals and deserve all the blame for that but this is also true that the heat offense were horrible all season long against a zone defense.The mavs had the best zone defense in the NBA

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson distribution role, to compensate for Wade's inability to play offball. That was a mistake, he should have just told Wade to move aside and been the focal point on O, but it stemmed out of selflessness. It also almost worked. The Heat were nearly up 3-0, in which case they'd have won (even though they had no business winning that series).

Lol has James ever lost a game or series in your eyes because he stunk up the joint? (All players have) Including the playoffs Miami was 70-27 before the finals. You mean they didn’t understand how to run the offense effectively the first 97 games but still won 70 of them? It only didnt work in the finals?

LeBron was awful in the finals and deserve all the blame for that but this is also true that the heat offense were horrible all season long against a zone defense.The mavs had the best zone defense in the NBA

Yea, Dirk won mvp in 07 and the Mavs were the 1# seed. They lost to 8th seed GS in the first round of the playoffs. Dirk was awful in that series shooting 38%. GS was a bad matchup for us. Dirk ate crow for that poor showing. It happens.

[One_and_Done]

Its funny how you hold on to that punch incident but either ignore or don't know that Mike apologized to Steve the same exact day that it happened, then he and Kerr moved past it, (as should you but it really doesn't matter) and went on to literally win the 1997 championship together. Mike went to Steve during a time out and trusted him with that game winning shot and threw the man the pass himself to win it all for Chicago. If thats not great leadership nothing is. He was a damn good leader. Clearly you don't know what great leadership is if you're going to call Jordan a terrible one.

Mike wasn't a perfect man at all, but his teammates respected him while they played together year after year. Before most recently because of the stuff with Jordans son messing with Pippens wife, Scottie always had nothing but positive things to say about his experience of playing with the Bulls and Jordan. He called Mike the greatest of all time. Mike may not have been their buddy, but always had that team ready to give it 110% along with him. That's how they as an overall core was as great as they were within that tringle offense system.

As far as your stuff about the 80s Lakers goes, They were absolutely different. Kareem was the only established star with a ring to his name before Magic got there. He had 1 ring. 1. in 1971, after that the Bucks lost every single other time, then he jumped to the Lakers and didn't get a single ring until young Magic showed up. Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and the rest of those guys build a actual team chemistry that is in no way shape or form anything similar to Lebron jumping to other teams to join up with Wade and Bosh or Kyrie and Love. You've made it pretty clear that you don't know much about this stuff. so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Adios.

Kareem is arguably the 2nd best player of all-time after Lebron, it's a no brainer to take him over Wade (who started declining quickly once Lebron arrived). Whether Worthy was 'established' is meaningless, Wemby wasn't 'established' when he entered the league. He's still better than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh.

You can win titles while being a terrible leader, and a terrible person. Jordan and Kobe are 2 good examples of that, heck Kareem is a good example if that.

So despite LeBron choosing his coaches and having more control over the composition of his teams than pretty much any player ever, including having his own player agency, Jordan should be downgraded in a comparison with LeBron because he had “stacked” teams ?. As has been said two threepeat teams were built around Jordan, Pippen developed next to him, Rodman who nobody wanted played a great role on the second threepeat etc etc. I also don’t recall him throwing team mates under the bus as LeBron has repeatedly done when his teams started going south when he was an active player

Jordan is downgraded because he is a less impactful player. That is the only factor worth considering. This other stuff about rings and who was a worse 'leader' etc is irrelevant.

[bledredwine]

Watch on YouTube

Legendary stuff. This is the only guy who
is talented enough to just decide to score 50 and call it before the game.


31 50 point games, including 8 in the playoffs.
Just insane.

[michaelm]

Kareem is arguably the 2nd best player of all-time after Lebron, it's a no brainer to take him over Wade (who started declining quickly once Lebron arrived). Whether Worthy was 'established' is meaningless, Wemby wasn't 'established' when he entered the league. He's still better than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh.

You can win titles while being a terrible leader, and a terrible person. Jordan and Kobe are 2 good examples of that, heck Kareem is a good example if that.

So despite LeBron choosing his coaches and having more control over the composition of his teams than pretty much any player ever, including having his own player agency, Jordan should be downgraded in a comparison with LeBron because he had “stacked” teams ?. As has been said two threepeat teams were built around Jordan, Pippen developed next to him, Rodman who nobody wanted played a great role on the second threepeat etc etc. I also don’t recall him throwing team mates under the bus as LeBron has repeatedly done when his teams started going south when he was an active player

Jordan is downgraded because he is a less impactful player. That is the only factor worth considering. This other stuff about rings and who was a worse 'leader' etc is irrelevant.

No it isn’t. You appear not to have noticed that it is a team game. LeBron very publicly declared that his objective was rings for that matter, which seems to have morphed into statistical dominance when he (and his fans) realised he wasn’t going to match Jordan for team achievements.

Sure it is multi factorial and a dynasty may have been more easily achievable in Jordan’s time, but being the leading player of teams which were built around him and won 6 titles is not negligible. Tim Duncan managed 5 titles with the same franchise with teams which were built around him in a career which significantly overlapped LeBron’s, including a title in his mid 30s on a team which beat LeBron’s Heatles, imo significantly because the Spurs played a team game and Duncan accepted being coached. KD and LeBron would have doubtless won titles with even an average supporting cast, but I can’t see a team playing LeBron ball being as good as the 2017 GSW team was playing a team game that year, nor KD being as good as he was, and definitely couldn’t see KD being facilitated somewhat to the detriment of his own game including counting statistics by LeBron as he was by Curry.

For me what counts the most in a team game is how good a team can be built around a player. There is a ceiling with LeBron ball, only imo of course.

[OdomFan]

Its becoming more and more clear that Lebron fans don't understand that every player doesn't have the same primary roles.

[One_and_Done]

So despite LeBron choosing his coaches and having more control over the composition of his teams than pretty much any player ever, including having his own player agency, Jordan should be downgraded in a comparison with LeBron because he had “stacked” teams ?. As has been said two threepeat teams were built around Jordan, Pippen developed next to him, Rodman who nobody wanted played a great role on the second threepeat etc etc. I also don’t recall him throwing team mates under the bus as LeBron has repeatedly done when his teams started going south when he was an active player

Jordan is downgraded because he is a less impactful player. That is the only factor worth considering. This other stuff about rings and who was a worse 'leader' etc is irrelevant.

No it isn’t. You appear not to have noticed that it is a team game. LeBron very publicly declared that his objective was rings for that matter, which seems to have morphed into statistical dominance when he (and his fans) realised he wasn’t going to match Jordan for team achievements.

Sure it is multi factorial and a dynasty may have been more easily achievable in Jordan’s time, but being the leading player of teams which were built around him and won 6 titles is not negligible. Tim Duncan managed 5 titles with the same franchise with teams which were built around him in a career which significantly overlapped LeBron’s, including a title in his mid 30s on a team which beat LeBron’s Heatles, imo significantly because the Spurs played a team game and Duncan accepted being coached. KD and LeBron would have doubtless won titles with even an average supporting cast, but I can’t see a team playing LeBron ball being as good as the 2017 GSW team was playing a team game that year, nor KD being as good as he was, and definitely couldn’t see KD being facilitated somewhat to the detriment of his own game including counting statistics by LeBron as he was by Curry.

For me what counts the most in a team game is how good a team can be built around a player. There is a ceiling with LeBron ball, only imo of course.

All I see here are a bunch of selective narratives that have nothing to do with who is better at playing basketball.

[ninjamilk23]

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historuc super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

But LeBron did have a super team in Miami. He had Bosh and Wade who were both top 5 in their respectable position prior to joining together. LeBron's 4 years in Miami was actually underwhelming. Yes, he won 2 but he should've won at least 3 out of 4. I agree with you, LeBron lost in 2011 because his team was worse than Dallas and majority of the blame is on him. He choked and underperformed really bad. Wade and Bosh couldn't make up for his shortcoming. This is the LeBron who already won 2 MVP the prior 2 seasons. You cannot ask for a better 2nd option and 3rd option with Wade and Bosh. You cannot deny that Miami Heat was the heavy favorite coming into the 2011 Finals. LeBron just needed to outplay Jason Terry and he would have 5 rings and 4 FMVP today.

Why should Kobe be embarrassed for losing to Mavs in 2011? Should LeBron be embarrassed for losing to Spurs in 2014? Because that is an identical situation. Lakers were the back to back champion before they lost to Mavs. Miami were also the back to back champion when they lost to Spurs and were the heavy favorites to win after beating the same exact Spurs the previous year. Kobe lost to Prime Dirk at 32 years old. LeBron lost to Duncan at 37 years old and Manu at 36 years old. Tony Parker was the only one in his Prime and Kawhi wasn't the Kawhi we know today.

I don't criticize LeBron for losing to Warriors in 2015, 2017, and 2018, but he also made it easier for KD to go to GSW because of what he did with the Miami Heat. LeBron started it but KD was the one who really benefitted the most.

[One_and_Done]

Why do we have to downplay Wade and Bosh to elevate LeBron? Wade finished 3rd and 5th in MVP prior to teaming up with LeBron. You claim LeBron's team in his first 7 years is not stacked. I completely agree with you, but LeBron had better teammates than Bosh during his time in Toronto in comparison to LeBron's Cavs. Anthony Parker is the 2nd best player when Toronto made the playoffs twice. Anthony Parker wasn't even the 4th best player in Cavs when he joined in 2010. LeBron had enough talent to beat Mavs in 2011. He just choked and it's okay to admit that.

"The 98 bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today". This is just hypothetical but I'll play along. LeBron wouldn't make 8 straight Finals if his Miami and Cavs (2nd stint) was playing in the West as well.

Wade is a top 20-25 all-timer, and Bosh is a fine 3rd star. Nobody is downplaying them at all. People are downplaying the ridiculous comments that 'Lebron had unprecedented super team support' as though teams like the Showtime Lakers didn't exist.

I actually don't care how many finals Lebron makes. He's still the best ever. Finals, like titles, are a team accomplishment. Lebron lost in 2011 because his team was worse, though it's also true he had a subpar series. It's Kobe who should be embarrassed losing to the Mavs that year, most had them as the favourites heading into the year and they were brutally swept.

But LeBron did have a super team in Miami. He had Bosh and Wade who were both top 5 in their respectable position prior to joining together. LeBron's 4 years in Miami was actually underwhelming. Yes, he won 2 but he should've won at least 3 out of 4. I agree with you, LeBron lost in 2011 because his team was worse than Dallas and majority of the blame is on him. He choked and underperformed really bad. Wade and Bosh couldn't make up for his shortcoming. This is the LeBron who already won 2 MVP the prior 2 seasons. You cannot ask for a better 2nd option and 3rd option with Wade and Bosh. You cannot deny that Miami Heat was the heavy favorite coming into the 2011 Finals. LeBron just needed to outplay Jason Terry and he would have 5 rings and 4 FMVP today.

Why should Kobe be embarrassed for losing to Mavs in 2011? Should LeBron be embarrassed for losing to Spurs in 2014? Because that is an identical situation. Lakers were the back to back champion before they lost to Mavs. Miami were also the back to back champion when they lost to Spurs and were the heavy favorites to win after beating the same exact Spurs the previous year. Kobe lost to Prime Dirk at 32 years old. LeBron lost to Duncan at 37 years old and Manu at 36 years old. Tony Parker was the only one in his Prime and Kawhi wasn't the Kawhi we know today.

I don't criticize LeBron for losing to Warriors in 2015, 2017, and 2018, but he also made it easier for KD to go to GSW because of what he did with the Miami Heat. LeBron started it but KD was the one who really benefitted the most.

Yeh, we disagree.

Firstly, the Lakers were the favourites according to most pundits heading into the 2011 season. The Lakers were 100% the favourites heading into their series with Dallas. The Heat were one of the top teams, but critics thought they might need a year or two to get enough talent around Lebron to overcome the other superteams in the league like LA and Boston. Once the Heat made the finals of course, sentiment shifted to “Heat have this in the bag”, because nobody respected Dallas (especially after their 2006 and 2007 choke jobs). In hindsight, people should have paid more attention to how Dallas stomped other teams in the lead in to the finals (including the favoured defending champs) and adjusted accordingly. In that sense it was a lot like Detroit in 04, where they were really underestimated going into the finals.

You definitely can ask for a better 2 and 3 than Wade and Bosh. A big part of the reason why is because Wade’s skillset duplicated Lebron. They both wanted to handle the ball a lot and be the primary options. That just wasn’t a natural fit at all. If you want a perfect synergy between 2 players, some examples would include Lebron and AD, or Curry and Draymond, or Curry and Durant, or Curry and Klay. Bosh is a good 3rd option, the problem was that in 2011 they were still playing him as a jump shooting 4 who never took 3s.

The 2011 finals was not Lebron’s fault. He definitely had a subpar series, and we can blame that on him a bit, but the Heat were not balanced enough to beat Dallas. Other stars have had sub-par series too, including Jordan. The degree to which it was bad is exaggerated. If you pace adjusted the stats for the 2011 finals, Lebron’s numbers look comparable or better than what Magic got in the 1980 finals. That’s worth noting, because to try and combat the duplication Wade created Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson facilitator role, where he ceded the primary offensive role to Wade. It actually almost worked. If not for a blown lead that wasn’t Lebron’s fault at all then the Heat go up 3-0 and win, which would have been a huge upset in reality (though nobody would have recognised it as such). The real problem in 2011 was that Lebron had no spacing around him, which was the tried and true method to maximise his impact. His fellow starters were Wade (who was bad at shooting 3s, especially at this point in time), Bosh (who wasn’t taking any 3s), Bibby (who was too washed to still hit 3s), and Joel Anthony (who couldn’t shoot at all).

In 2012 the Heat addressed the flawed structure of the Heat by getting rid of Joel Anthony, adding Battier to play the 4, moving Bosh to the 5 and ordering him to shoot 3s, and starting Chalmers (who was also instructed to shoot 3s). The result was a very 5 out type line-up that also switched a lot, and leveraged their speed and athleticism on both ends. Lebron and Wade still were a bit duplicative, but they learned ways to minimise this on offense.

As for the 2014 series, Wade was already declining in 2013, and by 2014 he wasn’t the same player at all. He honestly wasn’t even a all-star anymore, though he continued to get some selections due to his fame and rep. They also lost to an all-time team. Lebron played great in 2014. That loss wasn’t on him at all. In contrast, Kobe played like ass in the 2011 loss to Dallas, which the Lakers entered as huge favourites. Unlike Lebron, he had a great team that fit very well around him and complemented his strengths. If you replaced Lebron with Kobe or Jordan in 2011, the Heat don’t make the finals in the first place.