The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Litany]

You are missing my point. This wasn't a game where no other Jazz player had it going and only DM got going to carry them to a win. Rubio scored 2x above his season average, Ingles and Gobert were both 8 or more points above season average.

The Jazz don't win by 17 and likely would have lost without those guys going off. Yes DM scoring late helped secure the win but it hardly carried the team. If anything, the Jazz teammates carried DM until he got hot.

But please, continue your hero worship, nothing wrong with that.

If you didn't watch the game, and you clearly didn't, you should probably keep your trap shut. Mitchell absolutely carried the team in the second half. He was unbelievable.

I saw the game, but clearly you are ignoring my point. You have no freaking clue what "carrying a team" means.

DM took over in the 4th to put the game away, but it wasn't a game where all his teammates struggled and he turned on the jets to pick up their slack and carried them all game long.

Ingles, Gobert and Rubio scored a total of 36 points above their averages. They weren't struggling. DM put them over the top for sure, but HE DID NOT CARRY his team.

Whoops sorry my post above caught the IQ insult...

[Black Mage]

If you didn't watch the game, and you clearly didn't, you should probably keep your trap shut. Mitchell absolutely carried the team in the second half. He was unbelievable.

I saw the game, but clearly my logic is beyond your IQ. You have no freaking clue what "carrying a team" means.

DM took over in the 4th to put the game away, but it wasn't a game where all his teammates struggled and he turned on the jets to pick up their slack and carried them all game long.

Ingles, Gobert and Rubio scored a total of 36 points above their averages. They weren't struggling. DM put them over the top for sure, but HE DID NOT CARRY his team.

He said Donovan "Willed the team to victory" which he absolutely did.

As explained (and as you glossed over en route to your personal attack on a poster and fanbase) DM scored 18 points in 3 minutes, to get the jazz from down 5 to up 7 in that timeframe. Without that offensive explosion, they lose. Did he say "DM was the only player that contributed anything of value to the team and this victory." No. He freaking didn't. He said he willed them to a win.

When Kobe has taken over games late, or closed games and has willed his team to wins, people didn't throw up their arms saying "BUT BUT BUT his team did stuff too." They didn't because thats an obvious statement...nobody does the whole thing themselves . He's just saying if DM doesn't pull that out, they don't win the game. Sorry if it makes DM look good and you're so insecure about how it influences the ROY race you can't handle it. Geez.

Way too many fans of Ben Simmons unnecessarily feel insecure about the race and jump on any positive mention of DM. Simmons doesn't need that from people he's fantastic on his own. Twitter is especially pathetic and hilarious. Makes me think of that graphic illustrating how any mention by the media of DM has Ben Simmons fans breaking through the wall to tout stats about Simmons and diminishing DM. It's stuff like this that makes me hope Simmons loses. I personally think Simmons will win it, but it's a tight race and it wouldn't' surprise me if they give it to Mitchell.

Willing a team to win or carrying a team, in this context, they are interchangeable. My point was simply there was way too much praise on DM in a game where 3 other starters ALL played well above their season average and shot high percentages.

It was a team win and DM came alive in the third and fourth and looked amazing. If his teammates weren't having great games and he blew up like he did to steal a win I would agree completely with the OP. I could easily argue that if those guys didn't chip in 36 points above their averages then DM second half scoring means nothing cause the team would have lost.

I am not taking away what DM did, it was amazing and fun to watch. I am just saying the hype and praise is ignoring how good his teammates were in this game.

[Black Mage]

If you didn't watch the game, and you clearly didn't, you should probably keep your trap shut. Mitchell absolutely carried the team in the second half. He was unbelievable.

I saw the game, but clearly you are ignoring my point. You have no freaking clue what "carrying a team" means.

DM took over in the 4th to put the game away, but it wasn't a game where all his teammates struggled and he turned on the jets to pick up their slack and carried them all game long.

Ingles, Gobert and Rubio scored a total of 36 points above their averages. They weren't struggling. DM put them over the top for sure, but HE DID NOT CARRY his team.

Whoops sorry my post above caught the IQ insult...

No worries, it was my fault for not editting it sooner to fix the choice of words.

[CoreConcept]

Weren't the Jazz a 50 win team last season? Sixers won like 28 games last year lol. I am not quite understanding the Mitchell is leading a playoff team angle.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

[Young gun 6]

Weren't the Jazz a 50 win team last season? Sixers won like 28 games last year lol. I am not quite understanding the Mitchell is leading a playoff team angle.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

But the thing is

Hayward is out; yes. Without his scoring input others have had to stand up. As such, Mitchell has free reign to do whatever he likes on offsense, Jingles has increased his workflow and having his best individual season yet.

Hill: Rubio has replaced his output and been arguably as good if not better when adding in his defense this year.

Gobert: can be argued he is the main catalyst and without him on that tough one run Mitchell could only take the team to 4 wins 11 losses in that run. Gobert is the forgotten man. When people look at it and say Mitchell is ‘leading’ the way that’s only partially true in the offensive side. I think most would agree Gobert’s defense is what’s actually causing this team to do incredibly well and he is the ‘leader’ of this current charge. 26-15 with him in the lineup and 12-15 without him.

Hodd: has been either playing all year or when traded has been replaced with a better player anyway in Crowder.

Exum: is trash and added basically nothing last season as a backup anyway. Not sure why he’s even been mentioned?

Obviously what Mitchell is doing is great and he is really making an impact but let’s not pretend like it’s just him. Gobert has been incredible this season, Joe Ingles and Rubio defensively have been stellar and both putting up great offensive numbers and Crowder is looking really good too as a 3 & D guy in a structured system. This is Gobert’s team but everyone will try to pin it on Mitchell because he’s flashy and the media and casual fans all love flashy offense over amazing defenders in Gobert, Ingles, Rubio and Crowder.

Ben Simmons is the rookie of the year. Nothing to discredit Mitchell, he’s been great but Simmons has been better point blank.

[The_Hater]

Weren't the Jazz a 50 win team last season? Sixers won like 28 games last year lol. I am not quite understanding the Mitchell is leading a playoff team angle.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

All this and it should be noted that Nic Stauskas and TJ McConnell led the 28 win Sixers in minutes played last season.

I would still give it to Simmons but that was a terrible argument on his behalf.

[cl2117]

Watched a bit of the Memphis/Milwaukee game last night and was impressed with Dillon Brooks.

Didn't stand out as a guy who is going to break out and be a superstar or anything of the sort, but definitely struck me as a guy who had the talent to be a really useful bench piece. I had him pegged as someone that I wouldn't mind the C's taking a flyer on with one of their 2nd rounders because, despite a relatively low ceiling, he seemed like he could contribute sooner rather than later especially given his age and that's what I saw last night.

Checked out his stats and it seems like he's having a pretty productive year overall. I think he's the type of guy who could help a team build a Raptors style really deep bench. Nothing extraordinary, but just a really good cog in the overall machine.

Also saw a bit of the Heat/Trailblazers game. Wasn't overly impressed with Bam or Collins. Both looked like rookies, but they've both clearly got some potential. I think given how good some of the guys from this draft have been, there are going to be some sleepers that bloom in the later years of their rookie contracts and this draft is going to look even more stacked with 20/20 hindsight.

[Litany]

Weren't the Jazz a 50 win team last season? Sixers won like 28 games last year lol. I am not quite understanding the Mitchell is leading a playoff team angle.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

But the thing is

Hayward is out; yes. Without his scoring input others have had to stand up. As such, Mitchell has free reign to do whatever he likes on offsense, Jingles has increased his workflow and having his best individual season yet.

Hill: Rubio has replaced his output and been arguably as good if not better when adding in his defense this year.

Gobert: can be argued he is the main catalyst and without him on that tough one run Mitchell could only take the team to 4 wins 11 losses in that run. Gobert is the forgotten man. When people look at it and say Mitchell is ‘leading’ the way that’s only partially true in the offensive side. I think most would agree Gobert’s defense is what’s actually causing this team to do incredibly well and he is the ‘leader’ of this current charge. 26-15 with him in the lineup and 12-15 without him.

Hodd: has been either playing all year or when traded has been replaced with a better player anyway in Crowder.

Exum: is trash and added basically nothing last season as a backup anyway. Not sure why he’s even been mentioned?

Obviously what Mitchell is doing is great and he is really making an impact but let’s not pretend like it’s just him. Gobert has been incredible this season, Joe Ingles and Rubio defensively have been stellar and both putting up great offensive numbers and Crowder is looking really good too as a 3 & D guy in a structured system. This is Gobert’s team but everyone will try to pin it on Mitchell because he’s flashy and the media and casual fans all love flashy offense over amazing defenders in Gobert, Ingles, Rubio and Crowder.

Ben Simmons is the rookie of the year. Nothing to discredit Mitchell, he’s been great but Simmons has been better point blank.

Really? haha.

Donovan Mitchell leads his team in usage and ppg as a rookie and they're a playoff caliber team...that doesn't happen, almost ever. I think it's like Michael Jordan who has done something like that and a few others.

The roster completely turned over...yes they have some of the players but there was a huge change. Is Mitchell doing everything by himself? No...sigh...I dont' get why this concept is hard to grasp. Nobody is arguing that Mitchell has no help in making this team a playoff team...what people are arguing is what he's doing leading a playoff team in usage and ppg as a rookie is truly historic as HOFers are like the only ones who have done it...if that makes you uncomfortable because it's so impressive and makes him look good and makes an argument for ROY I'm sorry...not sure what to tell you

[JAYZGOAT]

Weren't the Jazz a 50 win team last season? Sixers won like 28 games last year lol. I am not quite understanding the Mitchell is leading a playoff team angle.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

All this and it should be noted that Nic Stauskas and TJ McConnell led the 28 win Sixers in minutes played last season.

I would still give it to Simmons but that was a terrible argument on his behalf.

I wasn't really lobbying for Simmons. I was genuinely curious about the Mitchell leading his team to playoffs argument. Sure they lost some good players, but they also still retained some good players as well. I just think Philadelphia's playoff push is more impressive considering where they were the past few years. To hold the Mitchell is leading his team to the playoffs over Ben's head is quite foolish to me.

[The_Hater]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

All this and it should be noted that Nic Stauskas and TJ McConnell led the 28 win Sixers in minutes played last season.

I would still give it to Simmons but that was a terrible argument on his behalf.

I wasn't really lobbying for Simmons. I was genuinely curious about the Mitchell leading his team to playoffs argument. Sure they lost some good players, but they also still retained some good players as well. I just think Philadelphia's playoff push is more impressive considering where they were the past few years. To hold the Mitchell is leading his team to the playoffs over Ben's head is quite foolish to me.

Fair enough. But before the current season began, most media had predicted Philadelphia making the playoffs and had Utah missing the playoffs. The Vegas odds also has it this way. And that was before Rudy Gobert missed 20 games digging a huge early hole for the Jazz. All that seems more relavent than their 2016-17 team records so I can definitley see Mitchell getting credit for a playoff push.

[HartfordWhalers]

All this and it should be noted that Nic Stauskas and TJ McConnell led the 28 win Sixers in minutes played last season.

I would still give it to Simmons but that was a terrible argument on his behalf.

I wasn't really lobbying for Simmons. I was genuinely curious about the Mitchell leading his team to playoffs argument. Sure they lost some good players, but they also still retained some good players as well. I just think Philadelphia's playoff push is more impressive considering where they were the past few years. To hold the Mitchell is leading his team to the playoffs over Ben's head is quite foolish to me.

Fair enough. But before the current season began, most media had predicted Philadelphia making the playoffs and had Utah missing the playoffs. The Vegas odds also has it this way. And that was before Rudy Gobert missed 20 games digging a huge early hole for the Jazz. All that seems more relavent than their 2016-17 team records so I can definitley see Mitchell getting credit for a playoff push.

There wasn't a dramatic difference in their win-loss predictions, and that was accounting for what was expected of each rookie.

Come October given the money on the two options, it would actually make sense to consider Utah favored if anything:

PHILADELPHIA 76ERS
OVER 41.5 +145
UNDER 41.5 -175

UTAH JAZZ
OVER 41 -130
UNDER 41 EVEN

https://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-season-win-totals-betting-odds

Earlier lines typically had Philly 2 games higher such as:

Philadelphia 76ers
Over 40 ½
Under 40 ½

Utah Jazz
Over 38 ½
Under 38 ½

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/story.cfm/story/1865923

And

Philadelphia 76ers - 42.5

Utah Jazz - 40.5

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/08/29/2017-18-nba-season-over-under-win-totals-all-30-teams-released/614279001/

Espn's summer forecast had:

T-8. Philadelphia 76ers
Projected record: 37-45

8. Utah Jazz
Projected record: 44-38

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20353282/2017-summer-forecast-eastern-conference-standings
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20361276/2017-summer-forecast-western-conference-standings

So Utah 7 games better...


So, I don't see a dramatic difference in their preseason expectations being a real compelling argument for Mitchell.

[Young gun 6]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but implying that this is the same team is a strange argument. There are EIGHT new players on the team this year.

Gordon Hayward: All-star, #1 in PPG and #2 APG on the team. Gone

George Hill: #2 on the team in PPG, #1 in APG. Gone

Rudy Gobert: 2nd team all nba, DPOY runner up. Gone for 2 months including during our toughest stretch of the year.

Rodney Hood: #4 in PPG and a starter. Gone at trade deadline

Dante Exum: Backup PG. Played 0 games this year.

But the thing is

Hayward is out; yes. Without his scoring input others have had to stand up. As such, Mitchell has free reign to do whatever he likes on offsense, Jingles has increased his workflow and having his best individual season yet.

Hill: Rubio has replaced his output and been arguably as good if not better when adding in his defense this year.

Gobert: can be argued he is the main catalyst and without him on that tough one run Mitchell could only take the team to 4 wins 11 losses in that run. Gobert is the forgotten man. When people look at it and say Mitchell is ‘leading’ the way that’s only partially true in the offensive side. I think most would agree Gobert’s defense is what’s actually causing this team to do incredibly well and he is the ‘leader’ of this current charge. 26-15 with him in the lineup and 12-15 without him.

Hodd: has been either playing all year or when traded has been replaced with a better player anyway in Crowder.

Exum: is trash and added basically nothing last season as a backup anyway. Not sure why he’s even been mentioned?

Obviously what Mitchell is doing is great and he is really making an impact but let’s not pretend like it’s just him. Gobert has been incredible this season, Joe Ingles and Rubio defensively have been stellar and both putting up great offensive numbers and Crowder is looking really good too as a 3 & D guy in a structured system. This is Gobert’s team but everyone will try to pin it on Mitchell because he’s flashy and the media and casual fans all love flashy offense over amazing defenders in Gobert, Ingles, Rubio and Crowder.

Ben Simmons is the rookie of the year. Nothing to discredit Mitchell, he’s been great but Simmons has been better point blank.

Really? haha.

Donovan Mitchell leads his team in usage and ppg as a rookie and they're a playoff caliber team...that doesn't happen, almost ever. I think it's like Michael Jordan who has done something like that and a few others.

The roster completely turned over...yes they have some of the players but there was a huge change. Is Mitchell doing everything by himself? No...sigh...I dont' get why this concept is hard to grasp. Nobody is arguing that Mitchell has no help in making this team a playoff team...what people are arguing is what he's doing leading a playoff team in usage and ppg as a rookie is truly historic as HOFers are like the only ones who have done it...if that makes you uncomfortable because it's so impressive and makes him look good and makes an argument for ROY I'm sorry...not sure what to tell you

What you’re failing to grasp is usage doesn’t mean a guy is ‘leading’ the team. They are focused on defense at the forefront and Gobert is 100% leading that team.

Gobert is ‘leading’ them to the 3rd best defensive rank and Mitchell is ‘leading’ them to the 17th best offensive rank.

They are beating teams with defense primarily above their offense which is lead by Gobert, Joe Ingles, Rubio and Crowder. This allows Mitchell to be free on offense and lead his team to wins scoring 85+ Team points..

I’m far more impressed in what Gobert, Joe Ingles and Rubio are doing in that team over the ‘hype’ and flashiness of the pure offense of Mitchell.

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

[Young gun 6]

All this and it should be noted that Nic Stauskas and TJ McConnell led the 28 win Sixers in minutes played last season.

I would still give it to Simmons but that was a terrible argument on his behalf.

I wasn't really lobbying for Simmons. I was genuinely curious about the Mitchell leading his team to playoffs argument. Sure they lost some good players, but they also still retained some good players as well. I just think Philadelphia's playoff push is more impressive considering where they were the past few years. To hold the Mitchell is leading his team to the playoffs over Ben's head is quite foolish to me.

Fair enough. But before the current season began, most media had predicted Philadelphia making the playoffs and had Utah missing the playoffs. The Vegas odds also has it this way. And that was before Rudy Gobert missed 20 games digging a huge early hole for the Jazz. All that seems more relavent than their 2016-17 team records so I can definitley see Mitchell getting credit for a playoff push.

As shown above the Vegas odds were pretty much identical and I don’t think Gobert missing supports the argument. It more hinders it as HE is the much bigger difference maker in wins or losses.

Gobert when playing is leading this team to a 26-15 (.634) record and without him they are 11-15 (.423).

[slc24]

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

You rate defense over offense yet your pic is Steve Nash?

[Litany]

But the thing is

Hayward is out; yes. Without his scoring input others have had to stand up. As such, Mitchell has free reign to do whatever he likes on offsense, Jingles has increased his workflow and having his best individual season yet.

Hill: Rubio has replaced his output and been arguably as good if not better when adding in his defense this year.

Gobert: can be argued he is the main catalyst and without him on that tough one run Mitchell could only take the team to 4 wins 11 losses in that run. Gobert is the forgotten man. When people look at it and say Mitchell is ‘leading’ the way that’s only partially true in the offensive side. I think most would agree Gobert’s defense is what’s actually causing this team to do incredibly well and he is the ‘leader’ of this current charge. 26-15 with him in the lineup and 12-15 without him.

Hodd: has been either playing all year or when traded has been replaced with a better player anyway in Crowder.

Exum: is trash and added basically nothing last season as a backup anyway. Not sure why he’s even been mentioned?

Obviously what Mitchell is doing is great and he is really making an impact but let’s not pretend like it’s just him. Gobert has been incredible this season, Joe Ingles and Rubio defensively have been stellar and both putting up great offensive numbers and Crowder is looking really good too as a 3 & D guy in a structured system. This is Gobert’s team but everyone will try to pin it on Mitchell because he’s flashy and the media and casual fans all love flashy offense over amazing defenders in Gobert, Ingles, Rubio and Crowder.

Ben Simmons is the rookie of the year. Nothing to discredit Mitchell, he’s been great but Simmons has been better point blank.

Really? haha.

Donovan Mitchell leads his team in usage and ppg as a rookie and they're a playoff caliber team...that doesn't happen, almost ever. I think it's like Michael Jordan who has done something like that and a few others.

The roster completely turned over...yes they have some of the players but there was a huge change. Is Mitchell doing everything by himself? No...sigh...I dont' get why this concept is hard to grasp. Nobody is arguing that Mitchell has no help in making this team a playoff team...what people are arguing is what he's doing leading a playoff team in usage and ppg as a rookie is truly historic as HOFers are like the only ones who have done it...if that makes you uncomfortable because it's so impressive and makes him look good and makes an argument for ROY I'm sorry...not sure what to tell you

What you’re failing to grasp is usage doesn’t mean a guy is ‘leading’ the team. They are focused on defense at the forefront and Gobert is 100% leading that team.

Gobert is ‘leading’ them to the 3rd best defensive rank and Mitchell is ‘leading’ them to the 17th best offensive rank.

They are beating teams with defense primarily above their offense which is lead by Gobert, Joe Ingles, Rubio and Crowder. This allows Mitchell to be free on offense and lead his team to wins scoring 85+ Team points..

I’m far more impressed in what Gobert, Joe Ingles and Rubio are doing in that team over the ‘hype’ and flashiness of the pure offense of Mitchell.

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

What are we even arguing at this point...talk about constantly moving the goal posts

You wanted to make an argument that Mitchell isn't doing this alone...which nobody said he's doing...Simmons isn't doing it alone either.

What people are pointing to is how exceptional it is that a rookie is leading the teams offense in usage and points and they are winning!!!! Do you know what the word leading means? It means he has more ppg and a higher usage than anyone else. It doesnt mean people are arguing "nobody else on the team does anything of value"

I think Gobert is a superstar. Absolutely. I would argue he's a top 10 player in the league and everyone would think I'm nuts, Idc. Does that make Donovan less special because Gobert has a huge role in their winning? No...I don't know why it has to be that Mitchells team has to suck hard outside of him for the argument that he's a leader on this team and he's leading them in usage and ppg as a rookie to be something truly remarkable. Embiid is a superstar and a HUGE part of what the sixers do. It doesn't mean Simmons is a lesser player or not valuable.

I took issue with this notion that the Jazz making it into the playoffs with this team that's had half of it's roster turned over and their leading scorer leaving and Donovan is leading the offense as a rookie isn't a big deal. It's hard to do that and I don't think you're giving that enough credit...

[Young gun 6]

Really? haha.

Donovan Mitchell leads his team in usage and ppg as a rookie and they're a playoff caliber team...that doesn't happen, almost ever. I think it's like Michael Jordan who has done something like that and a few others.

The roster completely turned over...yes they have some of the players but there was a huge change. Is Mitchell doing everything by himself? No...sigh...I dont' get why this concept is hard to grasp. Nobody is arguing that Mitchell has no help in making this team a playoff team...what people are arguing is what he's doing leading a playoff team in usage and ppg as a rookie is truly historic as HOFers are like the only ones who have done it...if that makes you uncomfortable because it's so impressive and makes him look good and makes an argument for ROY I'm sorry...not sure what to tell you

What you’re failing to grasp is usage doesn’t mean a guy is ‘leading’ the team. They are focused on defense at the forefront and Gobert is 100% leading that team.

Gobert is ‘leading’ them to the 3rd best defensive rank and Mitchell is ‘leading’ them to the 17th best offensive rank.

They are beating teams with defense primarily above their offense which is lead by Gobert, Joe Ingles, Rubio and Crowder. This allows Mitchell to be free on offense and lead his team to wins scoring 85+ Team points..

I’m far more impressed in what Gobert, Joe Ingles and Rubio are doing in that team over the ‘hype’ and flashiness of the pure offense of Mitchell.

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

What are we even arguing at this point...talk about constantly moving the goal posts

You wanted to make an argument that Mitchell isn't doing this alone...which nobody said he's doing...Simmons isn't doing it alone either.

What people are pointing to is how exceptional it is that a rookie is leading the teams offense in usage and points and they are winning!!!! Do you know what the word leading means? It means he has more ppg and a higher usage than anyone else. It doesnt mean people are arguing "nobody else on the team does anything of value"

I think Gobert is a superstar. Absolutely. I would argue he's a top 10 player in the league and everyone would think I'm nuts, Idc. Does that make Donovan less special because Gobert has a huge role in their winning? No...I don't know why it has to be that Mitchells team has to suck hard outside of him for the argument that he's a leader on this team and he's leading them in usage and ppg as a rookie to be something truly remarkable. Embiid is a superstar and a HUGE part of what the sixers do. It doesn't mean Simmons is a lesser player or not valuable.

I took issue with this notion that the Jazz making it into the playoffs with this team that's had half of it's roster turned over and their leading scorer leaving and Donovan is leading the offense as a rookie isn't a big deal. It's hard to do that and I don't think you're giving that enough credit...

I'm arguing it's Goberts team as originally stated and that HE is leading the way with his defense.

Once again you're failing to address the issue that Usage doesn't mean a guy is "leading" the team, either does simply leading PPG on a team.

The team is being lead behind Gobert's stellar defense. He is "leading" the team to the 3rd best defense while Mitchell is "leading" the team to a 17th ranked offense..

With Gobert they are 26-15, without him they are 11-15. He is the leader of the team and the main reason they are winning.

I'm not arguing with you that they should be losing or anything with Mitchell for him to be more recognised. The point i'm making is Gobert is the best player on the team and their leader. Do you agree with that? Or, is the leader of a team simply the guy with the highest usage and PPG even if they are winning off of being ranked 17th in offense and 3rd in defense?

If this was basically any other year, Mitchell would be winning in a landslide and would be destroying Brogdon from last year for example. What he IS doing is great and shouldn't be understated. I'm simply saying he could continue being historic and even get better this year but he is unfortunately 2nd in the rookie of the year, and rightfully so with what Simmons is doing. Any other year, against opponents not doing what Simmons is doing on both sides of the court, Mitchell would win in a land slide.

[michaelm]

Really? haha.

Donovan Mitchell leads his team in usage and ppg as a rookie and they're a playoff caliber team...that doesn't happen, almost ever. I think it's like Michael Jordan who has done something like that and a few others.

The roster completely turned over...yes they have some of the players but there was a huge change. Is Mitchell doing everything by himself? No...sigh...I dont' get why this concept is hard to grasp. Nobody is arguing that Mitchell has no help in making this team a playoff team...what people are arguing is what he's doing leading a playoff team in usage and ppg as a rookie is truly historic as HOFers are like the only ones who have done it...if that makes you uncomfortable because it's so impressive and makes him look good and makes an argument for ROY I'm sorry...not sure what to tell you

What you’re failing to grasp is usage doesn’t mean a guy is ‘leading’ the team. They are focused on defense at the forefront and Gobert is 100% leading that team.

Gobert is ‘leading’ them to the 3rd best defensive rank and Mitchell is ‘leading’ them to the 17th best offensive rank.

They are beating teams with defense primarily above their offense which is lead by Gobert, Joe Ingles, Rubio and Crowder. This allows Mitchell to be free on offense and lead his team to wins scoring 85+ Team points..

I’m far more impressed in what Gobert, Joe Ingles and Rubio are doing in that team over the ‘hype’ and flashiness of the pure offense of Mitchell.

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

What are we even arguing at this point...talk about constantly moving the goal posts

You wanted to make an argument that Mitchell isn't doing this alone...which nobody said he's doing...Simmons isn't doing it alone either.

What people are pointing to is how exceptional it is that a rookie is leading the teams offense in usage and points and they are winning!!!! Do you know what the word leading means? It means he has more ppg and a higher usage than anyone else. It doesnt mean people are arguing "nobody else on the team does anything of value"

I think Gobert is a superstar. Absolutely. I would argue he's a top 10 player in the league and everyone would think I'm nuts, Idc. Does that make Donovan less special because Gobert has a huge role in their winning? No...I don't know why it has to be that Mitchells team has to suck hard outside of him for the argument that he's a leader on this team and he's leading them in usage and ppg as a rookie to be something truly remarkable. Embiid is a superstar and a HUGE part of what the sixers do. It doesn't mean Simmons is a lesser player or not valuable.

I took issue with this notion that the Jazz making it into the playoffs with this team that's had half of it's roster turned over and their leading scorer leaving and Donovan is leading the offense as a rookie isn't a big deal. It's hard to do that and I don't think you're giving that enough credit...

Either player would be a landslide winner in most years, and particularly last year.

I don’t understand the vehemence about who should win ROTY, an award which seems relatively unimportant to an overseas NBA fan such as me. Despite being a Simmons partisan, I tend to favour Mitchell because the current Utah full team looks better than the Sixers are just now, with Mitchell playing a large part in that. I don’t agree about the relative quality of the supporting casts though, if Gobert/Mitchell and Embiid/Simmons are approximately equal I like Rubio, Ingles, Favors and Crowder, who are exceeding all expectations, at this point in time. Recent acquisitions do appear to have improved the Sixers bench which has been problematic for most of the season.

If Simmons develops some sort of jumper he will possibly be the superior player eventually, but Mitchell bids fair to be one of the top offensive players in the NBA for years to come anyway.

[Young gun 6]

What's funny is how being an awful team shapes the argument though. Neither is on a poor team, but someone like Devin Booker who gets no acknowledgement at all is 1 month older than Donovan Mitchell and having a much better year. Be it a result of being in the system for a few more years (not that Phoenix is much of a development place anyway) they are still only separated by 1 month of age.

[mtron929]

What you’re failing to grasp is usage doesn’t mean a guy is ‘leading’ the team. They are focused on defense at the forefront and Gobert is 100% leading that team.

Gobert is ‘leading’ them to the 3rd best defensive rank and Mitchell is ‘leading’ them to the 17th best offensive rank.

They are beating teams with defense primarily above their offense which is lead by Gobert, Joe Ingles, Rubio and Crowder. This allows Mitchell to be free on offense and lead his team to wins scoring 85+ Team points..

I’m far more impressed in what Gobert, Joe Ingles and Rubio are doing in that team over the ‘hype’ and flashiness of the pure offense of Mitchell.

I rate defense above offense and Simmons is absolutely killing Mitchell in that this year and is arguably on par offensively too.

What are we even arguing at this point...talk about constantly moving the goal posts

You wanted to make an argument that Mitchell isn't doing this alone...which nobody said he's doing...Simmons isn't doing it alone either.

What people are pointing to is how exceptional it is that a rookie is leading the teams offense in usage and points and they are winning!!!! Do you know what the word leading means? It means he has more ppg and a higher usage than anyone else. It doesnt mean people are arguing "nobody else on the team does anything of value"

I think Gobert is a superstar. Absolutely. I would argue he's a top 10 player in the league and everyone would think I'm nuts, Idc. Does that make Donovan less special because Gobert has a huge role in their winning? No...I don't know why it has to be that Mitchells team has to suck hard outside of him for the argument that he's a leader on this team and he's leading them in usage and ppg as a rookie to be something truly remarkable. Embiid is a superstar and a HUGE part of what the sixers do. It doesn't mean Simmons is a lesser player or not valuable.

I took issue with this notion that the Jazz making it into the playoffs with this team that's had half of it's roster turned over and their leading scorer leaving and Donovan is leading the offense as a rookie isn't a big deal. It's hard to do that and I don't think you're giving that enough credit...

Either player would be a landslide winner in most years, and particularly last year.

I don’t understand the vehemence about who should win ROTY, an award which seems relatively unimportant to an overseas NBA fan such as me. Despite being a Simmons partisan, I tend to favour Mitchell because the current Utah full team looks better than the Sixers are just now, with Mitchell playing a large part in that. I don’t agree about the relative quality of the supporting casts though, if Gobert/Mitchell and Embiid/Simmons are approximately equal I like Rubio, Ingles, Favors and Crowder, who are exceeding all expectations, at this point in time. Recent acquisitions do appear to have improved the Sixers bench which has been problematic for most of the season.

If Simmons develops some sort of jumper he will possibly be the superior player eventually, but Mitchell bids fair to be one of the top offensive players in the NBA for years to come anyway.

In general, these awards are kind of stupid. However, upon deciding to give out these awards, I think it is utmost important that one establishes a consistent criterion. And I feel like this year, the criterion for ROTY is different from every other year. In the past, ROTY was never ever about winning. ROTY recipients like Andrew Wiggins, Kevin Durant, etc. put up good stats but made negative contributions to team's winning. This is understandable given that most rookies just do not know how to win and majority of the best rookies are on bad teams. Now, I suspect that there are some rookies who contributed to winning by being good role players (e.g. Larry Nance Junior). However, these rookies were never considered for ROTY awards because in this award, we all largely agreed that winning is secondary/tertiary to putting up impressive stats.

So if we agree that this is the case, this should always be the case. That is, you cannot say winning is important one year and not important the next year. There is this argument about who is making more contribution to winning: Mitchell on the Jazz or Simmons on the Sixers. But for the ROTY award, this should be an irrelevant conversation because it was never ever important for this award. So I just find it disingeneous that many people are completely revamping their ROTY criterion for this particular award.

[Black Mage]

Shame, Simmons should have his 7th triple double tonight if his teammates could hit an open shot.