Rookie Play, Highlights & Discussion

wolves_89 · Post #1781 » by **wolves_89** » Mon May 17, 2021 8:56 pm

First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%

Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Big J · Post #1782 » by **Big J** » Mon May 17, 2021 8:59 pm

wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%

Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

It's more valuable to actually play the games. The best ability is availability.

HotelVitale · Post #1783 » by **HotelVitale** » Tue May 18, 2021 12:47 am

wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%
Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

Big J wrote: It's more valuable to actually play the games. The best ability is availability.

LOL no, even if the phrase is cute. It wasn't good for the Wolves' win column to have Edwards 'available' in those first 35+ games of the season, he was a big negative for them. No knock on him--he figured the game out and turned everything around--but it's clearly not good to be playing big minutes and taking tons of shots when you're playing really badly. (Unless you're honestly going to argue that, say, Dean Wade was better than KD or AD this year because he played more minutes.)

Quentin · Post #1784 » by **Quentin** » Tue May 18, 2021 12:52 am

HotelVitale wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%
Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

What? Edwards had a **** coach and injured teammates to deal with as a 19yo rookie. Would love to have seen how Ball would have dealt with that. Instead he had consistency. You have a slant for sure against Edwards.

Big J · Post #1785 » by **Big J** » Tue May 18, 2021 12:57 am

HotelVitale wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%
Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

Big J wrote: It's more valuable to actually play the games. The best ability is availability.

LOL no, even if the phrase is cute. It wasn't good for the Wolves' win column to have Edwards 'available' in those first 35+ games of the season, he was a big negative for them. No knock on him--he figured the game out and turned everything around--but it's clearly not good to be playing big minutes and taking tons of shots when you're playing really badly. (Unless you're honestly going to argue that, say, Dean Wade was better than KD or AD this year because he played more minutes.)

By your logic Joel Embiid shoulda won the ROY when he only played 31 games.

rzzzzz · Post #1786 » by **rzzzzz** » Tue May 18, 2021 1:57 pm

Big J wrote:By your logic Joel Embiid shoulda won the ROY when he only played 31 games.

As opposed to Michael Carter Williams? (At least them folks had enough sense to put him on the all rookie team.)

Big J · Post #1787 » by **Big J** » Tue May 18, 2021 5:02 pm

rzzzzz wrote:
Big J wrote:By your logic Joel Embiid shoulda won the ROY when he only played 31 games.

As opposed to Michael Carter Williams? (At least them folks had enough sense to put him on the all rookie team.)

No Brogdon won that year bro.

rzzzzz · Post #1788 » by **rzzzzz** » Wed May 19, 2021 1:24 pm

Big J wrote:No Brogdon won that year bro.

I stand corrected. Much more exemplary for a 2nd round pick to break through.

thinktank · Post #1789 » by **thinktank** » Wed May 19, 2021 10:08 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%
Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

Big J wrote: It's more valuable to actually play the games. The best ability is availability.

LOL no, even if the phrase is cute. It wasn't good for the Wolves' win column to have Edwards 'available' in those first 35+ games of the season, he was a big negative for them. No knock on him--he figured the game out and turned everything around--but it's clearly not good to be playing big minutes and taking tons of shots when you're playing really badly. (Unless you're honestly going to argue that, say, Dean Wade was better than KD or AD this year because he played more minutes.)

The first 35 games was good for the Wolves / Edwards because he needed that time to learn. Win column later benefited due to that.

The bottom line is not the ROY award.

Quentin · Post #1790 » by **Quentin** » Wed May 19, 2021 11:27 pm

thinktank wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:First Half of season:
Ball: 35 G, 15.8 PT, 6.0 RB, 6.3 AS, 1.6 ST, 0.4 BL, 56.1 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 14.9 PT, 4.0 RB, 2.5 AS, 0.9 ST, 0.4 BL, 46.6 TS%

Second Half of season:
Ball: 16 G, 15.6 PT, 5.7 RB, 5.8 AS, 1.5 ST, 0.3 BL, 49.6 TS%
Edwards: 36 G, 23.8 PT, 5.3 RB, 3.4 AS, 1.4 ST, 0.6 BL, 56.7 TS%
Ball easily was the best rookie in the first half and Edwards was easily the best rookie in the second half. The question for ROY seems to be whether it's more valuable to miss games (Ball second half of season) or to play while struggling to produce on the court (Edwards first half of season).

Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

Big J wrote: It's more valuable to actually play the games. The best ability is availability.

LOL no, even if the phrase is cute. It wasn't good for the Wolves' win column to have Edwards 'available' in those first 35+ games of the season, he was a big negative for them. No knock on him--he figured the game out and turned everything around--but it's clearly not good to be playing big minutes and taking tons of shots when you're playing really badly. (Unless you're honestly going to argue that, say, Dean Wade was better than KD or AD this year because he played more minutes.)

The first 35 games was good for the Wolves / Edwards because he needed that time to learn. Win column later benefited due to that.

The bottom line is not the ROY award.

Jeez really? So Edwards last 35 games are impressive while Ball was not. Edwards trending upward and Ball trending downward. But it's cemented in your noggin because of the first half only? Ok. Edwards deserves the ROY. Improved every month into an absolute beast.

Post #1791 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Thu May 20, 2021 1:21 am

Edwards ended the year as the better player IMO, but Ball did enough work in the long haul for ROY. Pretty simple for me. I'm not sure why people are so angry about giving another guy ROY that they didn't think would win, or didn't want to win. I was super low on Ball, and he came out super hot, and even his worse end of season was still not bad for his age, development, and his role on the team. He did well for a full season and that's enough for me.

_AIJ_ · Post #1792 » by **_AIJ_** » Thu May 20, 2021 1:34 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:Edwards ended the year as the better player IMO, but Ball did enough work in the long haul for ROY. Pretty simple for me. I'm not sure why people are so angry about giving another guy ROY that they didn't think would win, or didn't want to win. I was super low on Ball, and he came out super hot, and even his worse end of season was still not bad for his age, development, and his role on the team. He did well for a full season and that's enough for me.

Because its obvious that ball should not win roy. The media outlets all over his body doesnt help either. But who cares? Its done.

thinktank · Post #1793 » by **thinktank** » Thu May 20, 2021 4:44 am

Quentin wrote:
thinktank wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:Right, and Edwards was worse and for far more games when he wasn't the best rookie. So overall Ball was better on balance. Plus his good parts outweighed his bad ones while Edwards didn't, hence Ball having very good overall advanced stats while Edwards has bad ones.

Like I said I don't have any dog in this fight, just seems like the obvious conclusion.

LOL no, even if the phrase is cute. It wasn't good for the Wolves' win column to have Edwards 'available' in those first 35+ games of the season, he was a big negative for them. No knock on him--he figured the game out and turned everything around--but it's clearly not good to be playing big minutes and taking tons of shots when you're playing really badly. (Unless you're honestly going to argue that, say, Dean Wade was better than KD or AD this year because he played more minutes.)

The first 35 games was good for the Wolves / Edwards because he needed that time to learn. Win column later benefited due to that.

The bottom line is not the ROY award.

Jeez really? So Edwards last 35 games are impressive while Ball was not. Edwards trending upward and Ball trending downward. But it's cemented in your noggin because of the first half only? Ok. Edwards deserves the ROY. Improved every month into an absolute beast.

I do think Edwards still deserves ROY, but it’s still just an award.

bake51 · Post #1794 » by **bake51** » Thu May 20, 2021 1:02 pm

As a wolves fan, I am hoping Ant doesn't get ROY. Add more fuel to the fire.

AbeVigodaLive · Post #1795 » by **AbeVigodaLive** » Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm

bake51 wrote:As a wolves fan, I am hoping Ant doesn't get ROY. Add more fuel to the fire.

Yes.

It's one of the most meaningless awards in the NBA.

Post #1796 » by **Michael Jackson** » Thu May 20, 2021 11:11 pm

_AIJ_ wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Edwards ended the year as the better player IMO, but Ball did enough work in the long haul for ROY. Pretty simple for me. I'm not sure why people are so angry about giving another guy ROY that they didn't think would win, or didn't want to win. I was super low on Ball, and he came out super hot, and even his worse end of season was still not bad for his age, development, and his role on the team. He did well for a full season and that's enough for me.

Because its obvious that ball should not win roy. The media outlets all over his body doesnt help either. But who cares? Its done.

I think the Ball is overrated and just hype factor, and him coming out and shutting people up about that got him the award. That being said I would Edwards, he really did consistently improve.

righterwriter · Post #1797 » by **righterwriter** » Fri May 21, 2021 8:06 am

Maybe we just keep it simple....

Ball stats on the season: 803pts, 302 rebs, 313 asts, 81 stls, 18 blks, 145 TOs, 44/35/76%

Edwards stats on the season: 1392pts, 336reb, 211asts, 82 stls, 36 blks, 160 TOs, 42/33/78%

Who did more?

ElectricMayhem · Post #1798 » by **ElectricMayhem** » Sat May 22, 2021 4:09 am

bake51 wrote:As a wolves fan, I am hoping Ant doesn't get ROY. Add more fuel to the fire.

How would you project his stats in his peak year if he got the ROY vs. if he didn't get the ROY?

bigheadburton · Post #1799 » by **bigheadburton** » Sat May 22, 2021 1:02 pm

righterwriter wrote:Maybe we just keep it simple....

Ball stats on the season: 803pts, 302 rebs, 313 asts, 81 stls, 18 blks, 145 TOs, 44/35/76%

Edwards stats on the season: 1392pts, 336reb, 211asts, 82 stls, 36 blks, 160 TOs, 42/33/78%

Who did more?

This is honestly the only case in favor of Edwards, he played 21 games more than LaMelo (72 vs 51) and therefore had higher stat totals.

Ball stats per game: 15.7 pts, 5.9 rebs, 6.1 asts, 1.6 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.8 TOs, 44/35/76%, 53.9 TS%

Edwards stats per game: 19.3 pts, 4.7 rebs, 2.9 asts, 1.1 stls, 0.5 blks, 2.2 TOs, 42/33/78%, 52.3 TS%

In the games they played LaMelo was the more productive player. Edwards scored more, but both players had way belov averave effiency so not much value there and the gap in the other statistical categories are bigger. LaMelo is also better in all advanced stats (on bballref).

Edwards came on strong at the end of the season and it would not surprise me if he ends up becoming the better player, but if you look at production this year I would give the award to Ball. To me games played isn't important enough to sway my opinion, especially as Ball still played 50+ games.

BadWolf · Post #1800 » by **BadWolf** » Sat May 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Imo Edwards.at his best was better then Ball at his best. He also improved steadily and was a beast in the end. Ball regressed after he came back and was borderline unplayable, much like Ant in the beginning. Might be due to injury , but it wasn't just shooting.
It will be interesting to see how they come back next year.

Who are your top 3?