Was Kobe Bryant ever the best player in the league?

[starvinmarvin17]

again let me reiterate 09 is not even close so forget that. 09 might have been a lebrons goat level. kobe was best from 06-08 though

[Lightning25]

Some people have low standards for "the best" player in the NBA.
Kobe's best season was 05-06.
The unbiased stats say that Dirk was the best that year.
Dirk was 1st in PER, 1st in Win Shares, and 1st Win Shares per 48.
Kobe was 3rd in PER, 4th in Win Shares, and 8th Win Shares per 48.

Try to be objective and unbiased.

Many people are trolling.

Many know Kobe has never been the best yet keep saying he was in hopes that gullible, uneducated people will believe them.

Can you tell me when it was a requirement that in order to be the best player you had to be top 2-3 in PER? I don't remember this requirement/rule/law about it though but let me know when it was instilled and then I'll take you seriously.

I would rather rely on myself to make the decision of who was the best in a season rather than some possible misleading stat like all stats are.

[starvinmarvin17]

per is a good stat if it is accompanied by other stats like win shares and win shares per 48. eiother way an eye test and an opinion is just as good. Yes kobe was the most talented and best from as early as 03 04 ish with duncan on the same level. In 06 kobe was clear cut the best til about 07 08 ish. 09 going on bron been the best. I expect durant to overtake him in two years maybe though

[AcecardZ]

I absolutely love that Kobe is still getting the haters mad after all these years.

Sorry your favorite team will never have a player that plays as well as Kobe for as long as Kobe has.

Keep talking about your peak performance, win shares and per. It's all you have to hang on to.

[clipocketurs]

Can you tell me when it was a requirement that in order to be the best player you had to be top 2-3 in PER? I don't remember this requirement/rule/law about it though but let me know when it was instilled and then I'll take you seriously.

I would rather rely on myself to make the decision of who was the best in a season rather than some possible misleading stat like all stats are.

If you look at the history of PER in relation to the MVP award you will see there is a strong correlation.

30 of the past 35 MVPs finished with a top 4 PER.

The 5 execptions were Iverson, Nash, Nash, Kobe, Rose.

Those 5 MVP selections were the most controversial compared to the other selections.

I only used the past 35 since they started keeping track of turnovers in 77-78.

Also, year after year, the All-NBA First Team is filled with players in the top 10 in PER.

11-12 PER
LeBron 1
Paul 2
Durant 4
Dwight 6
Kobe 16

I thought Wade (3) or Westbrook (9) should have been on the first team.

[Volcano]

I absolutely love that Kobe is still getting the haters mad after all these years.

Sorry your favorite team will never have a player that plays as well as Kobe for as long as Kobe has.

Keep talking about your peak performance, win shares and per. It's all you have to hang on to.

how does the truth and stating facts = haters + mad?

This thread is about a one year performance, not longevity. You butthurt? I think Kobe may have been the best in 05-06 anyways. I'm not sure if there was any year that was clear cut.

PER, win shares and stuff only matter to a certain point. You have to check out the D, intangibles, hustle, team chemistry..etc. yourself. This part of Kobe's game isn't exactly his strong suit though..he's only elite in volume scoring. So against guys like KG, Duncan..etc. he should be knocked down a few pegs from his PER, but against guys like Dirk, he should be higher or similar.

[Volcano]

I like how you only reflected on the role players and rightfully accepted the fact that they hadd Kidd/Yao and won nothing.

good, move on then.

I doubt you even followed either VC/Tmac. Your a joke. If Alston was on the Lakers, you'd replace Smush Parker with him in your excuses. You'd call him the worst PG of all time.

Houston's supporting cast was ok, but flawed. Yao only had one year in which he was able to put it all together. He had stamina issues for most of his career and was a walking mismatch. If the mismatch didn't go in his favor, his impact was greatly reduced. Tmac in Houston was also heading out of his prime and dealing with back issues.

Nets were a big time lotto team before VC joined. Kidd was a playmaker with no talent on his team. Nets had like guys Mikki Moore and Collins as their starting big men. Their D was inconsistent and their O relied on one player. VC single-handedly carried them to the playoffs and 2nd round.

[AcecardZ]

I like how you only reflected on the role players and rightfully accepted the fact that they hadd Kidd/Yao and won nothing.

good, move on then.

I doubt you even followed either VC/Tmac. Your a joke. If Alston was on the Lakers, you'd replace Smush Parker with him in your excuses. You'd call him the worst PG of all time.

Houston's supporting cast was ok, but flawed. Yao only had one year in which he was able to put it all together. He had stamina issues for most of his career and was a walking mismatch. If the mismatch didn't go in his favor, his impact was greatly reduced. Tmac in Houston was also heading out of his prime and dealing with back issues.

Nets were a big time lotto team before VC joined. Kidd was a playmaker with no talent on his team. Nets had like guys Mikki Moore and Collins as their starting big men. Their D was inconsistent and their O relied on one player. VC single-handedly carried them to the playoffs and 2nd round.

The Eastern Conference was a massive joke in the early 2000's. The fact VC got a team to the 2nd round of the playoffs means very little or nothing.

[microfib4thewin]

If you look at the history of PER in relation to the MVP award you will see there is a strong correlation.

30 of the past 35 MVPs finished with a top 4 PER.

The 5 execptions were Iverson, Nash, Nash, Kobe, Rose.

Those 5 MVP selections were the most controversial compared to the other selections.

I only used the past 35 since they started keeping track of turnovers in 77-78.

Also, year after year, the All-NBA First Team is filled with players in the top 10 in PER.

11-12 PER
LeBron 1
Paul 2
Durant 4
Dwight 6
Kobe 16

I thought Wade (3) or Westbrook (9) should have been on the first team.

In the case of Nash I thought that the way his team performed he should get a pass. It may seem hypocritical to judge someone only on their team success, but did anyone expect an Amare-less Suns to get 54 wins and push their run to 6 games in the WCF?

I don't use PER and WS for player comparisons, but players that are regarded as the best is usually the leader in those categories.

Code: Select all

WS leader                      PER leader

2000 - Shaq                     Shaq
2001 - Shaq                     Shaq
2002 - Duncan                   Shaq
2003 - Duncan                   T-Mac
2004 - KG                       KG
2005 - KG                       KG
2006 - Dirk                     Dirk
2007 - Dirk                     Wade
2008 - CP3                      Lebron
2009 - Lebron                   Lebron
2010 - Lebron                   Lebron
2011 - Lebron                   Lebron
2012 - Lebron                   Lebron


The odd man out here is T-Mac, 05 KG, and Wade for PER and 05 KG for WS. For 2005, KG really got screwed because his team didn't make the playoffs, so people are stuck between Duncan, Nash, or Shaq as the best player that year. 03 T-Mac was arguably the best perimeter player that year and we have Shaq and Duncan take 2nd and 3rd place. 07 Wade only played 51 games and it was considered to be an off year due to his injuries, Dirk was 2nd place in PER that season. Outside of Wade and T-Mac it's pretty consistent with how people view these players.

It's not a definitive argument that Kobe cannot claim that he was the best in any year, but when a statistic approach echoes the sentiments of the ROY project which is more subjectivity based than number based you would have to wonder why people feel Kobe got robbed he was never considered the best in any given year. In what year did he really stand out amongst the rest? Is it compiling a lot of points on a garbage team? Is it winning an MVP in a year where his team didn't have the best record and he didn't have the greatest individual performance? Is it winning two titles even though he played worse than another player against the same teams in both years?

[Alex_De_Large]

His best season was in 2007, but he was not CLEARLY the best.

[Prolific Scorer]

No, Kobe has never been the best player in the league.

[MannyRam99]

I like how you only reflected on the role players and rightfully accepted the fact that they hadd Kidd/Yao and won nothing.

good, move on then.

I doubt you even followed either VC/Tmac. Your a joke. If Alston was on the Lakers, you'd replace Smush Parker with him in your excuses. You'd call him the worst PG of all time.

Houston's supporting cast was ok, but flawed. Yao only had one year in which he was able to put it all together. He had stamina issues for most of his career and was a walking mismatch. If the mismatch didn't go in his favor, his impact was greatly reduced. Tmac in Houston was also heading out of his prime and dealing with back issues.

Nets were a big time lotto team before VC joined. Kidd was a playmaker with no talent on his team. Nets had like guys Mikki Moore and Collins as their starting big men. Their D was inconsistent and their O relied on one player. VC single-handedly carried them to the playoffs and 2nd round.

You're still trying to damage control VC and T-Mac not winning with Kidd/RJ and then a top 10 peak center ?
dude take your ball and go home, there is no excuse in the world you can make for those guys. They failed themselves. Kobe endured losses and when he finally got Gasol he never looked back, he won back to back titles. You're so caught up in your hate and its hilarious.

lol @ VC single handedly carried them to the playoffs, nice revisionist history. RJ was the one who lead that team in scoring before they inevitably broke it up in 07' when they realized that VC couldn;t get them to the promise land, even when VC first arrived RJ was 20ppg night in and night out thats VC's second option guy and then you had a constant triple double threat in Jason Kidd. Kidd averaged a triple double for the entire 07' playoffs, that your 3rd option guy. But you're trying to paint a "Woe is me" story for VC.

[YFZblu]

Nash is being criminally underrated ITT.

[Paydro70]

I thought Kobe's 05-06 season was the best of any player's that year. His advanced stats put him in with the top tier (Dirk, LeBron, Wade), but he put them together on a wildly inferior team. To some degree these stats attempt to correct for the load that Kobe shouldered, but I don't think that they fully can. He was absolutely incredible that year, and THAT should have been his MVP season rather than getting the make-up award over Paul in '08.

However, before that it has to be Duncan or KG (and in the early 00's Shaq), and from 2008 onward it's been LeBron no contest. In 2007 things are a little dicier because the guy having the best season (Wade) missed a big chunk of games. LeBron hadn't quite made the leap yet, so the discussion becomes Kobe vs. Dirk, which is a close comparison. I'd take Dirk, but I would understand saying Kobe was the best for that season as well.

[JDRochholz]

Sorry fan boys, but Kobe was the best for the majority of the 00's. And it's not even close. It's not easy for me to admit it, but it's true.

[JDRochholz]

Btw, we are talking "best player" not "best numbers"...Kobe was clearly the best player for many years

[Joker]

I think Lebron established himself in the 2007 playoffs as the best player in the league, when he carried a horrendous cavs team past the pistons and to the finals, and he's been the best player ever since. You could make the argument that Kobe was the best in 05-06 and 06-07, but it's debatable.

[GetItDone]

Btw, we are talking "best player" not "best numbers"...Kobe was clearly the best player for many years

No he wasn't.

He has never been the best player.

Duncan, Shaq, Nash, CP3 in 08, Garnett, LeBron, Dwight, were all guys better than Kobe in years people are calling him the best. He was probably top 5 in a few, but definitely never clearly #1.

[primecougar]

Btw, we are talking "best player" not "best numbers"...Kobe was clearly the best player for many years

No he wasn't.

He has never been the best player.

Duncan, Shaq, Nash, CP3 in 08, Garnett, LeBron, Dwight, were all guys better than Kobe in years people are calling him the best. He was probably top 5 in a few, but definitely never clearly #1.

Lol Nash has never been better than Kobe and most of the guys on your list are laughable. Really Duncan in 07? Shaq? Plz

[MannyRam99]

Btw, we are talking "best player" not "best numbers"...Kobe was clearly the best player for many years

No he wasn't.

He has never been the best player.

Duncan, Shaq, Nash, CP3 in 08, Garnett, LeBron, Dwight, were all guys better than Kobe in years people are calling him the best. He was probably top 5 in a few, but definitely never clearly #1.

so many people here post like they're Kobe's bastard child.