Kobe agrees to contact extension with Lakers

[Ettorefm]

Flip back a page and see he where you said Kobe hasn't played defense since 2007 and has been a top 5 player. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&p=37596286#p37596286

.
Nash is a worse defender and rebounder than Kobe and was top 5 for many years. And did deserve (at least the second one, if you prefered another guy in 2004/05) his MVPs.
.
Defense is important, but you have to balance it out, get an average 'rating' and impact. Nash was always just average on defense, but he was the best offensive player for tons of seasons, and his impact is much bigger than just his numbers. On average, he got just being 'great', not 'superstar' like LBJ because of his defense. And MElo is the same thing. Amazing offense, poor defense, on average, just great player.
.
Kobe is the best scorer in the league (or was, let's say), and played good defense for most of his career, than starter gambling and being lazy. Last season, he was a mess, but had his best offensive season in the last 4 years. He was so good that he was voted for MVP for many coaches and was 5th in my MVP list. Almost 6th, and I would even agree putting him on 6th, but anyway...
.
Defense is important, sure, but you have to see the average impact.
.
And I'm not even a Kobe/Laker fan, I'm a Suns fan that doesn't like Kobe

[RayBan-Sematra]

Do you know what the definition of a first option is? What exactly do you mean by first option? Yes, Kobe is still a capable first option unless he has some drastic decline, nothing suggests otherwise.

I don't think Kobe has been a capable first option since 2011.
Now when I say that I only mean he isn't a good first option if he wants a very hige usage + volume shooting role.

I think his performance in playoff elimination in 2011 & 2012 proves the above opinion.

He could still be a "first option" technically on a more balanced offense where he would tone down his usage rate and ppg.

[Picklewagon]

In this thread all the Kobe Stans rush to defend their hero.

[Ettorefm]

A 1st option is a player who can be the best player on a team that can make a deep run in the playoffs. Kobe is being payed like the greatest 1st option in history at this stage in his career, he's not worth that. I really expect Kobe to look like Wizards Jordan when he comes back. But he's being played 48.5 mil over two years, that's an expensive farewell tour. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&start=165#sthash.7Uz1SId6.dpuf

.
Finally something we agree. First, I don't care about his paycheck. That's not what I'm talking about here. He is overpaid, of course. This is obvious
.
But Kobe is still a capable first option. Was his last season worse than Duncan's/Dirk's (forget the playoffs, just regular season)?
.
Kobe can't get a team to win in the playoffs because he doesn't have...a team. No coach, no players, no defensive scheme (and he became lazy, obviously).
.
Let's put first option as this - if you put him to be the primary scorer and leader of a good team, can he do it? I think he can
.
Just imagine him playing with a good supporting cast such as the Grizzlies. Let's subtract Tony allen and put Kobe.
.
Conley/Kobe/Prince/Randolph/Gasol. Do you think this team is a contender now? Do you think he can take the scoring load and make the difference in the playoffs against other teams, or at least be a leader and top scorer?
.
If he can, he IS a first option. You don't need to be top 3 in teh league or in your prime to do that. Change Kobe for Joe Johnson in that Grizzlies team and they don't get that much better. Put Gay and they get worst. But put Kobe, or Melo, or Curry (not top 5) and that team now is a clear contender with no problems on offense
.
Being a 1st option is being a go-to guy on offense when the team needs it. Is drawing attention so that other players can get more space and open looks. Being a 1st option is being doubled and having defensive schemes drawn to get you not to score. And my friend, teams still do that against Kobe, no matter against who, where or when. That is because he can still have many (MANY) 35+ point games as he already did last season. And in a good efficiency, as he was a 46% FG player last season
.
Is he the old kobe? No. Is he as good as he was in his last championship run? No. Is he top 3, or top 5? I don't think so, because of his injury. But we all thought he was over, and he was one game away from being the season's top scorer in 12-13. Best career averages in the last 4 years. 5th highest PER in his career. Amazing athleticism when we thought he was over.

[JellosJigglin]

I'm thrilled Kobe will finish his career a Laker. It's amazing to see the two greatest players of this generation stay with one team their entire careers.

[Talent Chaser]

A 1st option is a player who can be the best player on a team that can make a deep run in the playoffs. Kobe is being payed like the greatest 1st option in history at this stage in his career, he's not worth that. I really expect Kobe to look like Wizards Jordan when he comes back. But he's being played 48.5 mil over two years, that's an expensive farewell tour. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&start=165#sthash.7Uz1SId6.dpuf

.
Finally something we agree. First, I don't care about his paycheck. That's not what I'm talking about here. He is overpaid, of course. This is obvious
.
But Kobe is still a capable first option. Was his last season worse than Duncan's/Dirk's (forget the playoffs, just regular season)?
.
Kobe can't get a team to win in the playoffs because he doesn't have...a team. No coach, no players, no defensive scheme (and he became lazy, obviously).
.
Let's put first option as this - if you put him to be the primary scorer and leader of a good team, can he do it? I think he can
.
Just imagine him playing with a good supporting cast such as the Grizzlies. Let's subtract Tony allen and put Kobe.
.
Conley/Kobe/Prince/Randolph/Gasol. Do you think this team is a contender now? Do you think he can take the scoring load and make the difference in the playoffs against other teams, or at least be a leader and top scorer?
.
If he can, he IS a first option. You don't need to be top 3 in teh league or in your prime to do that. Change Kobe for Joe Johnson in that Grizzlies team and they don't get that much better. Put Gay and they get worst. But put Kobe, or Melo, or Curry (not top 5) and that team now is a clear contender with no problems on offense
.
Being a 1st option is being a go-to guy on offense when the team needs it. Is drawing attention so that other players can get more space and open looks. Being a 1st option is being doubled and having defensive schemes drawn to get you not to score. And my friend, teams still do that against Kobe, no matter against who, where or when. That is because he can still have many (MANY) 35+ point games as he already did last season. And in a good efficiency, as he was a 46% FG player last season

The Grizzlies with Kobe are not anymore of a threat than they are currently. The Grizzlies with Melo are a contender. Putting Kobe and Melo in the same tier in their current forms is hilarious. I don't think you understand how much this injury is going to slow him down. He won't be able to drive and will struggle to create his own shot consistently.

[j-ragg]

I'm thrilled the Lakers are paying him that much money

[RayBan-Sematra]

.
Let's put first option as this - if you put him to be the primary scorer and leader of a good team, can he do it? I think he can
.

Look at 2011 & 2012.
He tried to anchor the offense those two years the way he did from 09-10 and failed miserably (in the playoffs).

And he had good teams those two years.

He could probably still be a first option on a contender but he probably cannot be the main offensive anchor for a contender.

[DreamShakeFTW]

But they still can sign productive free agents. Even if they re-sign Pau, they'll have around 13 million left over in cap room.

Some of you guys don't have a clue how salary cap works.

First you'll have cap holds on your free agents....

Some Laker cap holds next year:

Gasol: 20,000,000
Blake: 7,600,000
Hill: 6,650,000
Kaman: 3,819, 600
Etc....

Then, if you renounce all of those free agents, you will have roster charges for players you don't have signed yet.

So, yeah, your 'cap space' isn't what you think it is.

[Ettorefm]

The Grizzlies with Kobe are not anymore of a threat than they are currently. The Grizzlies with Melo are a contender. Putting Kobe and Melo in the same tier in their current forms is hilarious. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&p=37596426#p37596426

.
The Knicks have a better supporting cast (healthy) and Melo didn't get anywhere What? How is Melo way over what Kobe was last season?
.
Of course they're not in the same tier today because Kobe doesn't play This is pretty obvious
.
I'd like to quote your statement, because it's too beautiful to be forgotten
.
The Grizzlies with Kobe are not anymore of a threat than they are currently

[UnbelievablyRAW]

So basically Laker fans think Kevin Love/Westbrook gonna leave their teams to join their poverty Lakers team in 2 years

Okay

[Fat]

Mike Bresnahan ‏@Mike_Bresnahan 19s
Kobe will still be NBA's highest-paid player, according to sources. He'll total between $40 mill and $50 mill his last 2 seasons.

WoW.

[og15]

He's obviously not a first option. Have you ever heard of this thing called defense? Kobe hasn't played that for a while now. If he is a true #1 option why couldn't he lead a team with the best center in the game out of the first round? Let's not act like Kobe isn't going to be slowed down by his Achilles either, that's a devastating injury for a player who has played as many minutes over his career as he has. He's going to be a glorified jump-shooter at this point in his career. Father Time is undefeated. Not to mention the Lakers handed out this contract before even seeing him play in a game post-injury.

Do you know what the definition of a first option is? What exactly do you mean by first option? Yes, Kobe is still a capable first option unless he has some drastic decline, nothing suggests otherwise.

A 1st option is a player who can be the best player on a team that can make a deep run in the playoffs. Kobe is being payed like the greatest 1st option in history at this stage in his career, he's not worth that. I really expect Kobe to look like Wizards Jordan when he comes back. But he's being paid 48.5 mil over two years, that's an expensive farewell tour.

Sure, Kobe isn't a $24M/year first option at this stage, but that's certainly different from him not being a first option at all. He should be quite a bit better than a 38-40 year old guy who hadn't played basketball in a couple of years.

Still, maybe he isn't worth $24M (okay he probably isn't) in terms of basketball ability and impact, but that's different from him not being a first option. If the Lakers put together a strong high level defensive team, then yes, Kobe can be the best player on a team that makes a deep playoff run (now I know MDA is the coach).

Basically think of it like inserting Kobe on the Bulls at SG, he's the best player and that team can make a deep run powered primarily by defense, but secondarily by his individual scoring ability. So sure, he can't carry a team far by himself, but he couldn't do that when he was in his prime either, he won 45 and 42 games at 27/28 with first round exits. No one does it alone so that doesn't really say anything.

Do you know what the definition of a first option is? What exactly do you mean by first option? Yes, Kobe is still a capable first option unless he has some drastic decline, nothing suggests otherwise.

I don't think Kobe has been a capable first option since 2011.
Now when I say that I only mean he isn't a good first option if he wants a very hige usage + volume shooting role.

I think his performance in playoff elimination in 2011 & 2012 proves the above opinion.

He could still be a "first option" technically on a more balanced offense where he would tone down his usage rate and ppg.

That's a reasonable conclusion, but I don't think we can conclude that he is just flat out no longer a first option. Again, assuming he's fine from the injury and doesn't have some sharp decline. He's still a very capable scorer and playmaker. Sure he can't all offense a team to victory and his defense hasn't been specifically great. And yes, with D'Antoni, the Lakers won't be a defensive team, but Kobe surrounded by an elite defense can still be a high usage option and help the team win a ton of games.

Of course that isn't something singular to him, a lot of high level players with that luxury would do very well, but Kobe can also do that. He's not Lebron, but no one is claiming that he's going to be playing at a Lebron level the next two seasons, at least I don't think anyone is claiming that.

[Ettorefm]

.
Let's put first option as this - if you put him to be the primary scorer and leader of a good team, can he do it? I think he can
.

Look at 2011 & 2012.
He tried to anchor the offense those two years the way he did from 09-10 and failed miserably (in the playoffs).

And he had good teams those two years.

He could probably still be a first option on a contender but he probably cannot be the main offensive anchor for a contender.

.
True, I agree. And as our discussion was about that absurd statement that Kobe is not a 1st option anymore, I think you're on our side in this. He clearly can be a first option on a contender - obviously on the Lakers he is and will be. That's it. If he can be MVP and destroy the league, I don't think so. Not anymore.

[Ettorefm]

Sure, Kobe isn't a $24M/year first option at this stage, but that's certainly different from him not being a first option at all. He should be quite a bit better than a 38-40 year old guy who hadn't played basketball in a couple of years.

Still, maybe he isn't worth $24M (okay he probably isn't) in terms of basketball ability and impact, but that's different from him not being a first option. If the Lakers put together a strong high level defensive team, then yes, Kobe can be the best player on a team that makes a deep playoff run (now I know MDA is the coach).

Basically think of it like inserting Kobe on the Bulls at SG, he's the best player and that team can make a deep run powered primarily by defense, but secondarily by his individual scoring ability. So sure, he can't carry a team far by himself, but he couldn't do that when he was in his prime either, he won 45 and 42 games at 27/28 with first round exits. No one does it alone so that doesn't really say anything. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&p=37596550#p37596550

.
Brilliant post, og15

[wutevahung]

While I understand it from the Lakers management point of view, the only way to interpret this from Kobe's point of view is that he is selfish and does not care about winning anymore. I mean, he has made 280 million in his career, and that is not counting all of the endorsement money he has made. I really do not think there is anyway fans can argue that.

ya, all players after they have reached 100 mil in their career should be restricted only to vet min and disobey all economic principle. After all, they are set for life and additional incomes are just pure greed, right?

[Talent Chaser]

The Grizzlies with Kobe are not anymore of a threat than they are currently. The Grizzlies with Melo are a contender. Putting Kobe and Melo in the same tier in their current forms is hilarious. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1286212&p=37596426#p37596426

.
The Knicks have a better supporting cast (healthy) and Melo didn't get anywhere What? How is Melo way over what Kobe was last season?
.
Of course they're not in the same tier today because Kobe doesn't play This is pretty obvious
.
I'd like to quote your statement, because it's too beautiful to be forgotten
.
The Grizzlies with Kobe are not anymore of a threat than they are currently

You just compared Kobe to Dirk and Duncan last year while excluding the playoffs. Yet when Melo losing to the Pacers in the playoffs benefits your argument you bring it up, you're cherry-picking. The grizzlies have a worse supporting cast than the 2012 Knicks? When you say "healthy" are you including a healthy (not washed up) Amari? Because that's the only way that statement makes any sense. You really think a washed up Kobe is the difference between 2nd round and WCF for the Grizzlies?

[TheBargnaniRule]

I'm thrilled Kobe will finish his career a Laker. It's amazing to see the two greatest players of this generation stay with one team their entire careers.

Duncan fair call but Shaq played on numerous teams.

[Slava]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/405022587396169728[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/405030654930202624[/tweet]

I don't understand basketball loyalty but this is inexplicable.

[TheBargnaniRule]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/405022587396169728[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/405030654930202624[/tweet]

I don't understand basketball loyalty but this is inexplicable.

It really is. Couldn't they at least have waited to see what he would look post-torn achilles?