NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sports

[GYK]

please lock this.

[Yoshun]

Why would it be beneficial to the NBA to hold back black people specifically? Im usually with people when they say things are about race, most things are. There are just too many other varibles here.

I do agree the one year thing is stupid though. People should be able to join a pro league once they reach adult age. Owners should be able to sign any adult they want. I never agreed with it in the NFL either.

[ChosunX]

See and this is the racism that people are talking about, if it was White people that wanted to go pro out of high school to play BBALL, nobody would would have a that kind of argument for it and that kind of argument is used as justification for free labor.

I never mentioned race. My perspective and argument remains the same, regardless of a person's skin colour.

Don't want to feel limited/trapped by your own physicality, with your only real adult life skill or qualification being putting a ball into a hoop, especially if a professional basketball career doesn't work out? Don't want to feel like a "slave", like your only value is your body, and that your worth expires when your athleticism fades or you get hurt? Take full advantage of the opportunities you're given, and use the full ride you're getting to college to get a degree, expand your mind and your interests, and give yourself something else to do with your life if basketball doesn't work out, or even if it does. You've got a lot of living to do beyond your early-to-mid 30s (when most basketball careers are over).

Why is college the only source for knowledge?

[Damon_3388]

Why is college the only source for knowledge?

It's not, but it's a handy tool, and provides you with an opportunity and a solid head-start in some sort of venture other than basketball (which has a limited lifespan, even if you're a good player). It's pretty hard to have much currency in the working world these days without a degree, too.

If you're getting the chance to have your education and board paid for, while getting to play sport and have your heath and wellbeing monitored and taken care of, and experience a different environment to that in which you grew up, why not take it for a few years? Allow yourself to grow up, learn something and learn how to live life and be an adult, without the pressure of travel, money, performance and expectation? Why do you have to have everything right now? And why is money the answer to all of your "problems" at age 18, when most people haven't really seen or done anything with their life beyond their local world? The whole "let these kids get paid" mentality acts like money is the only think stopping these people from ultimate life fulfillment and happiness, and like they're somehow being held back from some pre-ordained birthright.

Yes, we should all have equal opportunity to be financially secure and professionally successful, but do 18-20 year olds really need to be guaranteed millionaires, just months or years out of high school? Just leads to a bunch of people having more money than sense for the most part.

[TimRobbins]

Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

You're right that it definitely hurts the players and helps the NCAA. I don't know how much of it has to do with race, but I will ask you this - do you think it makes the league better to have an age limit? If so, then I'd say you need to keep it, and there needs to be some sort of insurance policy for the top NCAA recruits that will pay them in case they get injured.

[Nazrmohamed]

Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

Thats **** Bill. You think the powers that be, who have put billions of dollars into the hands of young black players for decades and fully plan on paying large sums of money to these same players a mere 1 yr later( which still isn't enough) have a racist agenda for telling them to wait for it?

Cmon, use your brain. I cannot pay you today because I don't think you're ready. Train and learn hard and the very next year I will pay you that money. Hows that racist of all agendas. The nba is in the business of making black people famous. Just stop.

If there is some agenda then its simple. To put the best product out on the floor as possible. And guess what? The nba is better for it. The whole 2000's was a decade of nba teams littered with failed high schoolers and young Euros. Cause when teams have then exhausted HS seniors they then turn to 17yr old unproven euros.

This league is for professionals. And I don't think the once per decade Phenom like Lebron or Kobe or Garnett disprove all the failures that come out of that protocol. Go get an education, go get some structure, tell your family to stop being so thirsty and in a year you'll have the world at your fingertips.

And here Im pissed that its a year. In my opinion it should be raised to two years after HS.

[MilesTeg]

American ideology is so strange to me. The cold war really messed up your brains.

'Capitalism means that if you're 17, 18 years old and you're a geek and you want to drop out of college and invent Apple or something else, you can do it,'' Kohlman said.

Go ahead and invent another league or something else then, you can do it! It's capitalism right? You can do anything!

[Parataxis]

Tennis players reach their peak at like 24 years old. Its different. Hockey and baseball have minor league systems. You're not stepping in at the highest level immediately very often, unless you're really ready for it.

This is just trying too hard to find a race issue.

THere's nothing stopping the NBA from developing a minor league system. It seems a bit perverse to not set one up, and then claim that you need to restrict entry to your league because you don't have a minor league system.

[Frank Lee]

They can always choose to not go to college, too.

I just find it a bit rich that underprivileged people who feel like they're being treated like commodities, or only valued for their physical/athletic traits, being provided with the opportunity of a college education, and to develop some interests/qualifications outside of their sporting ability, treat it like it's some sort of punishment.

Nobody is going to value you for your intelligence and or as a person beyond being "just an athlete" if you see developing your mind and expanding your abilities/skills/knowledge as some sort of imposed burden.

See and this is the racism that people are talking about, if it was White people that wanted to go pro out of high school to play BBALL, nobody would would have a that kind of argument for it and that kind of argument is used as justification for free labor.

I actually used to think that it was good deal - free education for playing a sport - when I was younger but then I had to go college...

Who the hell cares about college in itself. You go to college to get money. You don't go to "learn" anything unless you wanna be a researcher and then yeah, you decided to be in debt the rest of your life.

I am Black and in college...why? I want money. If I could get money without being in college, I would rather spend my youth doing other crap than wasting 4 years of my life paying somebody for a piece of paper that allows me to get more money than other piece of paper I got at 18 would've allowed me. And thank god I am almost done so I can move on.

I even picked the degree that would get me the most money. It's not even what I am interested in. Do I care about the "education" no. Do I care about being perceived "intelligent"? Do I care about "developing skills" ? No no no no no no, I want money so I can take care of myself and family.

There are a lot of broke smart, well perceived people in the world.

Plus people use the idea college as a taming school for Black Americans. You go to get "educated" and "cultured" and all that other fluffy crap that is thrown at Black athletes and Black people. Like that stuff matters when you are poor. You go to college to get paid. Damn interests and hobbies. You pick the degree that yields the most money and you try to finish as fast as possible you so can start earning money. People think education = money, especially Black people who they market that crap at. when it's really about skills you obtain for jobs that pay the most. If athletes at the age of 17 got the skills to play pro, then dammit they should be able to play pro instead of wasting their life in school generating millions of dollars that they can't even get.

You see what athletes major in...communications, sociology, general studies...You don't see them majoring in accounting or finance or computer science. So what the hell is fuss about athletes getting "free education"? They getting BS degrees literally. The degrees they get couldn't even feed a family. The degree earnings are at the USA poverty line.

Perry Jones had his mother with a heart condition, he had to go college, he probably would've been the 1st pick if he came out right out of high school. He actually needed that money. He stayed in college 2 years and fell out the lottery. Perry Jones was homeless while in high school taking care of his mother. His parents was homeless while he was in college. Yeah learning about Western Civilization was sure a good thing while he had the capability of making money at 18 but had to sit around BSing in Baylor and losing money.

They even said, "Stay another year Perry! Improve your stock and get the college experience!"

The funny thing is, Dante Exum came right out of high school basically and nobody really had a problem with it. Nobody said "Stay in school and learn something." And he's of African descent. African American players wanna go pro young because they need money but they gotta go to the NCAA and get pimped out for a year or two since it's better than pulling a Brandon Jennings and being away for a year and getting paid and not playing at all and going in the late lottery.

NBA and NCAA are colluding. Both don't want minor pro leagues in the USA like in Europe where you can go pro at 16. Dennis Schroder and Giannis Antekunmpo benefited from this. Even going back, Roddy Beabouis and Serge Ibaka benefited from this.

There are countless of international players of African descent that didn't go to college and went pro before the age of 18 and the world didn't fall apart.

African American players wanna go pro..."Noooo you gotta learn stuff first while you play for free and be poor while you got million dollar talent."

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Basketball is not a physically demanding sport like American Football for those that got that football argument.

After hacking through 9 pages I'm glad I found this post. Nice one Cpool. King Ken was making my eyes bleed logical tears. Though it is good to get a no holds barred viewpoint on occasion. I don't really know much about racism being a pasty white guy, and I don't claim to....but there are some very good human points above. Human does not have a color.

To me, the root of this problem is Big Business/Corporations. Big Biz runs the show in the NBA, NCAA, and this country now. Their preferred color is Green. True, our corporate world is top loaded with starchy white men, but its still a green playing field to them and they will squash the RED BLOOD out of all of us, with little regard to anything but soiling their shoes. To think the NCAA is not in the ear of the NBA on this defies business sense, but I am not buying into the racial intentions of their efforts to thwart the age limit movement. As with everything anymore, just follow the money. The young athlete (black, white,?) is unfortunately just collateral damage.

Its a shame you have to go out of this supposedly free-est country in the world to find a workplace that operates on what looks like a true market system. One that is giving everyone the same chance to succeed while providing a reasonable profit on all levels (In this case... 'Only NOT in 'Merica). Heck, their product looks ten times more enjoyable to participate in as a fan compared to many of the morgue-ish arenas the NBA operates. I am sure there are some unseen drawbacks in their system too though. However it seems their sports leagues are independent of their universities, and its working out fine. Just a completely different system.

May be the players union is creating some leverage with their approach, but as Dan the Lawyer (assumption. Did you learn that.... in college? ) pointed out a few pages back, it will still come down collective bargaining rules and a court system that has been walking a fine line between business and labor. And another poster wisely added some cold reality for the union to consider.....for every 18 yr old rookie, a 32-33 yr old vet says see ya .

Seems one solution is to expand the roster and the draft, with semi-guaranteed contracts/signing bonuses like MLB. Invest heavily in the D-League... and for G-sakes... get rid of the age limit. Shoot (see told I was a pasty ), this season, I'd rather watch a group of young up and comers in Bakersfield than my own chosen team. One problem does exist though, and that is the unwillingness of players to play in the D, and that is why the environment needs to improve dramatically, league wide. Again, money would sure help comfort.

Face it, these youngsters are attempting to defy the odds and they have essentially a 4-5 yr window to grab a golden ticket. If their efforts do not pan out, they then can go to college/trade school... whatever is needed to better their lives. It will be up to them and if they don't make it, they will just melt back into society and join the rest of us. I'm sure some will still opt in for the university experience, even with no age limit, as college it turns out, is pretty damn fun.

[Bergmaniac]

The NBA owners want to make as much money as possible. They feel that the age limit helps them in that so they pushed for it in the CBA negotiations. The NBA players agreed to it either because it helps their own selfish interests since it means less competition for them or they conceded this in order to get another benefit for themselves from the owners in return. Textbook example of capitalism at work (which makes the capitalism mention in the article hilarious). Screwing over the poor in order for the millionaires and the billionaires to get ever richer is what capitalism is all about after all.

You can go into the military at age 18, you can play basketball at age 18, simple as that.

Because there is no basketball outside of the NBA, right?

[Damon_3388]

there needs to be some sort of insurance policy for the top NCAA recruits that will pay them in case they get injured.

Why are they entitled to this, based on what they might do in the future? Again, it's just placing being a professional athlete and the money associated with it on the wrong kind of aspirational pedestal IMO.

If they want to insure themselves against possible injury, they can take out an insurance policy for personal injury like anyone else.

[Parataxis]

See and this is the racism that people are talking about, if it was White people that wanted to go pro out of high school to play BBALL, nobody would would have a that kind of argument for it and that kind of argument is used as justification for free labor.

I never mentioned race. My perspective and argument remains the same, regardless of a person's skin colour.

Don't want to feel limited/trapped by your own physicality, with your only real adult life skill or qualification being putting a ball into a hoop, especially if a professional basketball career doesn't work out? Don't want to feel like a "slave", like your only value is your body, and that your worth expires when your athleticism fades or you get hurt? Take full advantage of the opportunities you're given, and use the full ride you're getting to college to get a degree, expand your mind and your interests, and give yourself something else to do with your life if basketball doesn't work out, or even if it does. You've got a lot of living to do beyond your early-to-mid 30s (when most basketball careers are over).

That's a bit of a red herring though, and here's why : Colleges will still exist at the end of their basketball career as well.

And the economics aren't even close. Largely, we're talking about players who are going to get drafted in the first round (because they're phenoms, right? We're not talking about the players who won't get drafted, or who aren't good enough to get guaranteed contracts - those aren't the people who GMs would be drafting). If you're picked 30th in the NBA draft, you're guaranteed to make a little over $900,000 in your first year.

$900,000. And you're guaranteed a three year contract. But lets forget about year 2 and 3. Lets pretend you've played one year in the NBA, and then decided that pro-basketball life isn't for you, and what you really wanted was to get a BA. Let's pretend you went to your GM and asked him to tear up the rest of the contract, with a $0 buyout. Won't ever happen (you'll walk away with at least another million or so) but let's pretend it will.

So now you're 19, and you've made $900,000. Half of that went to taxes, and you bought yourself a car, but didn't really spend like crazy, because you realised early on you'd be leaving to go back to school. Lets say you have $350,000 left at the end of the year.

Harvard estimates that a year at their school, including Tuition, Fees, Room&Board, books, personal expenses, and travel costs will run, on average, $65,000 (https://college.harvard.edu/financial-a ... attendance) That makes $260,000 for a four year degree.

That still puts you $90,000 up on somebody who got a full ride scholaraship (and maybe risked breaking their leg, or still deciding they didn't love basketball, or not getting drafted because college showed GMs that they weren't as good as they looked in High School).

AND you get to dedicate all of your time to your studies, so you're getting a better education.

In summary: the 'Have to go to college first, for your own good' argument is crap. Especially when it's only one year.

[jokeboy86]

I guess I'm missing the part where players have to go to college out of high school. There's no law or mandate saying they have to. Every top prep player has the option of going overseas and getting paid immediately. If this is that big a problem why dont some ex players who were preps to pros try to startup another pro league here(I know it would be extremely difficult) or more players convince the NBA to strengthen the D-league and make it a true minor league with better wages. I understand why high school players are upset cause the rule stops guys from making money right away. But the NBA is a private organization and they can do what they want. Being an african American myself lets stop with this racism charge, or that guys should "have a right to play" because on the grand scheme of things this is not that important. This is still just entertainment. I get angry when someone uses race in a situation like this because it just seems like a way to get attention with a headline.

[TimRobbins]

there needs to be some sort of insurance policy for the top NCAA recruits that will pay them in case they get injured.

Why are they entitled to this, based on what they might do in the future? Again, it's just placing being a professional athlete and the money associated with it on the wrong kind of aspirational pedestal IMO.

If they want to insure themselves against possible injury, they can take out an insurance policy for personal injury like anyone else.

I believe they are entitled to it based on the fact that they are playing for free and the NCAA is making a lot of money off their backs. I think it would also help players remain in college for more years.

they obviously don't have the money to get the insurance themselves.

[Parataxis]

r. And another poster wisely added some cold reality for the union to consider.....for every 18 yr old rookie, a 32-33 yr old vet says see ya .

That's not even true though, at least not as it regards the age limit.

60 players are drafted into the NBA every year (30 with guaranteed contracts). That number doesn't change. It doesn't change if the drafting age limit is 25, or if it's 16. You still have the exact same number of players coming in, and so the same number of players going out - it's a fixed system.

The only people that lowering the age limit will genuinely hurt (beyond GMs being exposed for bad scouting) are the kids with one year of college already - suddenly they're competing with twice as many people for the same number of draft slots. But even that's only for one year.

[jmomcc]

I mean they are a business but the players have to agree to any terms.

I'd argue that sitting on a bench for a year prepares a player for NBA life more than playing in college.

Also, I don;t think it makes sense to say that someone shouldn't complain because someone else has it worse. Someone always has it worse.

Sitting on a bench wastes a roster spot when that spot could go to a veteran. Thats an issue. Some raw 19 year old whose 30 pounds underweight and has little skills besides athleticism/dunking shouldn't be in the league if they can't play right now. I agree with a better minor league/D League system at the very least, but another year of scouting before the draft would reduce busts as we will see who steps up or regresses after their freshman year. That's not saving GMs from themselves. That's a business requiring a certain amount of experience to work for them, which is pretty much the same for every job.

Go on a job interview and you will be asked a million questions about all of the times you led a project, how you work with a team, how you handled a difficult boss, etc. They want to know your experience and that you're proven because they don't want to waste money on a bust hire. No different than the NBA. Let's just compare having to wait 2 years to play basketball with say having to wait 8 years (college+law school) to be a lawyer. Oh and you make much more playing basketball while waiting 1/4 of the time and not having to pay a cent for education. Think of slavery those poor souls go through.

Give the kids another year to gain some weight, work on their game, and prove themselves more. This is a man's league. No more babysittin.

There are tons of guys on the end of benches who can't play right now. I don't see why a handful of high school guys getting experience instead of wasting their time in college is such a big deal.

Experience is basically irrelevant for guys who are skilled enough to go in the lottery out of high school. This isn't law school. It is not the same. Lawyers are a dime a dozen. Elite basketball players are not.

[jmomcc]

there needs to be some sort of insurance policy for the top NCAA recruits that will pay them in case they get injured.

Why are they entitled to this, based on what they might do in the future? Again, it's just placing being a professional athlete and the money associated with it on the wrong kind of aspirational pedestal IMO.

If they want to insure themselves against possible injury, they can take out an insurance policy for personal injury like anyone else.

I believe they are entitled to it based on the fact that they are playing for free and the NCAA is making a lot of money off their backs. I think it would also help players remain in college for more years.

they obviously don't have the money to get the insurance themselves.

Anecdotally, I heard that in football, schools are paying for these policies. For players coming back for their redshirt junior or senior year.

[Sting3r]

Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

What about all of the white athletes? This is a serious question, I am not being facetious, what about the white athletes?

Oh wait, I understand the sentiment completely. White people are simply not part of the mix because the percentages show that the majority of the athletes are African American. Those white guys are not prone to the exploits, just the African Americans.

Listen, I think that the age limit should be lowered for a variety of reasons, but the double-standard that National Basketball Player's Association (and to a minor extent you) are blatantly flaunting is pretty disgraceful. This is clearly a corrupt system that, as you state, "lines the NCAA's pockets", but the idea that race is involved is absolutely flawed logic that causes more separation between different racial communities.

Not everyone is trying to exploit African Americans, hell, even the NCAA is not trying to just simply exploit African American athletes. They are exploiting everybody! Inserting race into a situation that clearly does not involve it is a spineless, yet intelligent, tactic that the NBAPA is using to force the NBA into an awful political situation. It is nothing more, and nothing less.

Do not let flawed politics corrupt common sense. Racism is alive, and it exists, but for people to use race as an issue for absolutely anything really sets the world back. I would say it helps nobody, but sadly it is often times the best tactic to receive what somebody wants. If anything, it promotes racism, but that is a hypocrisy that does not need to be dove into at this time.

EDIT: In addition, this argument is highly flawed. The National Football League's system is far more corrupt, and yet it is not mentioned in the article. Why? Because it does not fit the imagery that the NBAPA's lawyers are trying to create. It is pure silliness.

EDIT2: Other people beat me to the NFL comments, but the point still stands. In addition, what about the fantastic European players that this affects? Often they are not considered, but impressive players exist in Europe quite often. It is not as prevalent, but Europeans also miss out on making NBA money because of the system. Now, my argument is flawed because they receive pay in Europe, but it does postpone their dreams and forces them to stay in a place where their Draft stock can plummet considerably. Totally different situation, but not just African Americans are screwed by the scummy system.

I agree i cant wait for the day a white player complains against the NBAPA. They act as if they only represent black basketball players.

[TKainZero]

Gary kohlman is a racist PoS lawyer
I don't even know where to begin...

Makes Saul goodman looks like a standup lawyer!

[basketball royalty]

Its not a race issue and I doubt the lawyer believes it is one. He realizes though that the race card is the best way to get what he wants from the PC and image conscious whiteys that run the NBA. Sterling losing his team proved that.