RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#12 2018-19

[Mickey8]

Wow you Jokic lovers are outrageous.

How is Jokic at #12 outrageous?

Doesn't play a lick of defense, hasn't sniffed the playoffs in his career but he's somehow better than Paul George, Kyrie and Oladipo? OK.

Well thats not the true, Denver is better both offensively and defensively with him on the court. Also team is improving with him every season, the last two season, Denver was so close to play off's , without single all star player on the roster in tough Conference. You can easily notice that he makes difference in the winning column for his team,also Malone was yanking him a lot in those two seasons, probably contributing in Denver missing play off .

[nolang1]

Exactly, should just look at RPM or RAPM instead of wins. Those don't change based on # of games played.

I think the context here would be that a common criticism of Jokic is that per minute/possession numbers overrate his standing in the league since his conditioning has been poor and he simply can't play as many minutes as someone like Westbrook. Looking at RPM wins shows that even when you factor in minutes played he still does pretty well.

Can't really see how that is even a big criticism anymore. He played 32.5mpg this past season which was good for 49th in the league. Nobody plays big heavy minutes anymore. Lebron led the league at only 36.9mpg.

It's less of a concern than before but over the course of a season that's essentially the same as playing 8-9 fewer games than a player who plays 36 mpg, which certainly matters at some level. Especially when a lot of the stars playing 32 minutes are doing so because they can get their team to the playoffs while playing that much and then will play 40+ minutes a game, which we have yet to see Jokic do.

[Funcrusher]

Wow you Jokic lovers are outrageous.

How is Jokic at #12 outrageous?

Doesn't play a lick of defense, hasn't sniffed the playoffs in his career but he's somehow better than Paul George, Kyrie and Oladipo? OK.

Yes.

[Mickey8]

Oladipo and Kyrie are placed in crappy conference, we all remember Oladipo in Orlando and Kyre without Lebron, both way outside of the play off picture back then in a weak Conference.

[Tai]

No matter what the formula is, the general point is the same: Kyrie Irving didn’t make the Celtics a much better team if at all last year. You can use RPM, RAPM, on/off, team record with and without, or you could just watch the team in the playoffs and see what a dynamic defensive juggernaut they were without Kyrie constantly getting caught out of position or blown by. If you can get replaced by a third-string PG with a career PER of 12.8 and the team doesn’t miss a beat and is arguably better afterwards, you’re not one of the Top 15 players in the league.

And people wonder why Celtics fans aren't clamoring for this topic? Outside of clear masochists like me, who wants to argue points like "Kyrie didn't make the Celtics a much better team if at all"?

And let me just make something clear; if RPM really says what you claim it does, it shouldn't matter where the Celtics finished last season. Cause you can't marginalize Kyrie to virtually nothing with RPM and then claim where the Celtics finished proves or disproves his ineffectiveness; either RPM proves he didn't make the team better and them sucking these past playoffs wouldn't change that fact, or he actually did make them better and they were just that good anyway. But you don't get to tell me after the fact that the Celtics making the ECF proves Kyrie isn't this or isn't that (not top 15, not someone who makes the Celtics better, etc.) if RPM can say so before the fact.

[iggymcfrack]

No matter what the formula is, the general point is the same: Kyrie Irving didn’t make the Celtics a much better team if at all last year. You can use RPM, RAPM, on/off, team record with and without, or you could just watch the team in the playoffs and see what a dynamic defensive juggernaut they were without Kyrie constantly getting caught out of position or blown by. If you can get replaced by a third-string PG with a career PER of 12.8 and the team doesn’t miss a beat and is arguably better afterwards, you’re not one of the Top 15 players in the league.

And people wonder why Celtics fans aren't clamoring for this topic? Outside of clear masochists like me, who wants to argue points like "Kyrie didn't make the Celtics a much better team if at all"?

And let me just make something clear; if RPM really says what you claim it does, it shouldn't matter where the Celtics finished last season. Cause you can't marginalize Kyrie to virtually nothing with RPM and then claim where the Celtics finished proves or disproves his ineffectiveness; either RPM proves he didn't make the team better and them sucking these past playoffs wouldn't change that fact, or he actually did make them better and they were just that good anyway. But you don't get to tell me after the fact that the Celtics making the ECF proves Kyrie isn't this or isn't that (not top 15, not someone who makes the Celtics better, etc.) if RPM can say so before the fact.

How’s this? RPM said Kyrie wasn’t making the Celtics much better. I took that at face value and started betting the Celtics a bunch after he got hurt. Then the data of the future games confirmed my hypothesis as the Celtics played just as good the rest of the season and made me a bunch of money.

FWIW, I’m not trying to talk **** about the Celtics at all. I think they’re an excellent team that’s either 3rd or 4th best in the NBA. I just think Kyrie’s probably not going to be one of their top 3 players this year. As a Celtics fan, do you really think Kyrie’s gonna be more valuable than Horford this year who carried you to the conference finals? Or Tatum who was almost as good of an offensive player as a rookie by the playoffs while also playing elite D and playing way more games than Kyrie’s ever played in a season in his life? I don’t see it.

[deneem4]

Replace kyrie with i.t. Boston is still the same team

Replace kyrie with oladipo Boston become better

Cousins is the best player out of this list even if he comes back 80%

[Jadoogar]

People really underrating Irving just because they don't like him (i also don't like him). He's amazing and his lack of defense is not as big a concern as Jokic just due to his position. He can be the centre of your offense and has already shown he can get it done on the big stage.

The only problem with this is Jokic isn't even a bad defensive player. Nice try, though.

Nuggets were 25th in defensive rating. He personally ranked 22nd in defensive rating for centres that play more than 25 minutes (108 per 100 possessions)