Has Lebron always been this whiny dude that doesn't take accountability for himself/failures?

[LKN]

Some of you anti-Lebron people are nuts.

I'm not even that huge of a Lebron fan; I don't find his style of play particularly entertaining and I think MJ was clearly better.

That being said, I can't deny the guy is an awesome player and is IMO a top-3 player of all time (I don't think anyone could put him out of the top 5 - even if you really don't like him). Comparing him to Kobe is absurd. Come on; there are things to criticize with Lebron, but this absurd hater nonsense makes it difficult to have a real conversation.

People are allowed to have different opinions. Ask former players and you get a much different opinion of Lebron. Message boards try to bully a generation into agreeing with one opinion. I've been watching the NBA for 35 years and I just flat out don't like this guy. I don't enjoy watching him play and I don't like his God complex personality. Don't care for his self-praise when the team succeeds and finger-pointing when they lose. I've seen enough greats in my lifetime to form my own opinion. I don't need people telling me what I should think. Looking forward to the day he retires.

None of that has anything to do with how good he is on the court though.

Hey, as I just said; I'm not a huge Lebron fan either... Do I think people over-rate him? Absolutely... he's not MJ; that ship sailed in 2011 (if not earlier). ... but he's clearly an all time great.

[Lalouie]

all this stuff negates whatever "goat greatness" he has to just "great".

he is not a good teammate. there seems to be a universal understanding that if you're a star and you're his teammate, be prepared to deal with his drama. vets may tolerate it because they have experience and can assume the responsibility. ain't working with the lakers though. klove is really the perfect example of life with lebron - his conclusion "there's a a lot of cr@p to deal with but the ring makes it worth it."

Kobe raped a woman and Jordan was a compulsive gambler and womanizer, but LeBron's comments to the media negate his "goat greatness"? Got it.

are we talking about what goes on on the floor and within the team or not??!!

if you want to hand out humanitarian awards, i'll nominate lebron too.

[thebigbird]

Some of you anti-Lebron people are nuts.

I'm not even that huge of a Lebron fan; I don't find his style of play particularly entertaining and I think MJ was clearly better.

That being said, I can't deny the guy is an awesome player and is IMO a top-3 player of all time (I don't think anyone could put him out of the top 5 - even if you really don't like him). Comparing him to Kobe is absurd. Come on; there are things to criticize with Lebron, but this absurd hater nonsense makes it difficult to have a real conversation.

People are allowed to have different opinions. Ask former players and you get a much different opinion of Lebron. Message boards try to bully a generation into agreeing with one opinion. I've been watching the NBA for 35 years and I just flat out don't like this guy. I don't enjoy watching him play and I don't like his God complex personality. Don't care for his self-praise when the team succeeds and finger-pointing when they lose. I've seen enough greats in my lifetime to form my own opinion. I don't need people telling me what I should think. Looking forward to the day he retires.

Former players are motivated by their own agendas. Guys like Paul Pierce are jealous as hell of Lebron and therefore bash him at any opportunity.

[MrPerfect1]

No one sane denies that he's an all time great... I think that can be true while also being annoyed at how he throws his team under the bus in a passive aggressive fashion. There are a lot of superstars who don't do that and who shoulder the blame regardless of whether they are to blame or not.

To be fair he has to do a lot of heavy lifting.

He knew who was on the roster when he signed. They weren't a playoff team last year, and they dumped two of their better players to make cap space.

LeBron failing to make the playoffs his first year coming out West is going to be funny though. Regular season actually matters out here Bron.

They shaped the team how Lebron specifically wanted. They got rid of good players like Randle and Lopez partly to make room for Clutch client KCP as a favor since Rich Paul messed up his Free Ageny 2 years ago.

Following this, they signed Rondo, Lance, and McGee because Lebron wanted veterans who "played the right year". Lebron trying to trade the rest of the team midseason was great for chemistry too.

[Greyhound]

I don't enjoy watching Lebron play. He just kind of floats and fills the stat box with little effort. I don't think he's nearly as good as his numbers indicate. He's always been aware of his stats and analytics and I think he shapes his game in a very stat friendly way, and rarely takes risks. I think he's a guy who is extremely sensitive to failure. He feels as long as he puts up stats he has done his part, and if the team fails it's because other guys didn't do the same. Guys who are killers just put themselves all out there and don't hold anything back. They want to rip your heart out at all costs. Lebron doesn't naturally have that in him. That's why he talks about being "activated". It's something he has to make a conscious effort to do. He's a great physical talent, but I don't see this "greatness" that fans from the east claimed since he was a teenager. Former greats seem to agree as well. He is no MJ or Kobe.

LeBron was indeed great and is flat out better then Kobe from a career perspective. Beyond that, I agree with your assessment on current LeBron.

He currently plays to avoid blame (first and foremost).

[GrandTheftRondo]

I think it’s gotten worse since Golden State came along. There’s no doubt in my mind that LeBron saw himself finishing off his career winning several more times with the new young star in Kyrie. Instead the Warrior juggernaut comes along, he only wins one, the Cavs team falls apart and he has no reason to stay there.

The frustration with the Lakers stems from how poor the roster is, I think LeBron went there just expecting things would fall into place soon enough like they did in Miami and Cleveland the second time.

You’re now watching a frustrated veteran player still playing at a high level wasting a season.

[Hobo4President]

He made the Finals out of the EC though. I give Kobe & TD more credit for making the Finals out of the WC 7 & 6 times...while winning it 5 times. Lebron's has a losing record in the playoffs against WC teams.

Everyone is aware that the east isn’t as strong but he made the finals 8 straight seasons and won 3 titles. And the season before the streak his Cavs team won 60 games with Mo Williams as the 2nd best players.

So what numbers are you looking for before you’re going to concede that he’s a winner? 8 finals and 7 titles? 8 titles? 9 titles??? Or is he automatically a loser because he was in the weaker conference? Is thst how it works?

Not sure how people are going to spin his track record into losing but they certainly seem to be giving it a shot these days. As ridiculous as that notion is. Even Laker fans such as yourself can’t appreciate his greatness. Too funny

The problem for Lebron is he's 3-6 in the Finals. Other stars have winning records, so when people bring up 8 FInals.....others will point out that Lebron wouldn't have made the Finals 8 straight timein the West.
It's weird how people use his FInals appearances to elevate Bron, but get upset when his bad Finals record is brought up. They go hand in hand. Then you compound things by Bron forming his Wade/Bosh and Love/Kyrie teams, and the results really are unimpressive.

What's weird is every year every player is playing for a title and people act like losing in the finals is somehow a bad thing yet missing the playoffs isn't.

[IG2]

It is still endlessly amusing to see Kobe/Laker fans who've absolutely despised LeBron for a decade+ give their opinion on the guy as if we can't see right through their BS. The whole "I always knew LeBron was...." Righttttttt . They will just never forgive the guy for never letting Kobe have his day in the 00's to eventually surpassing him in the 10's.

btw, Lakers' win % with LeBron this season would currently be good for 6th seed in the West. Pretty much exactly where we expected them to be prior to the season's beginning. All with a roster that wouldn't win 30 games without LeBron (as clearly exemplified by that 6-12 stretch).

[BeatDaCavs420]

Also Lebron is never one to take responsible, anytime he loses in the finals he starts bringing up his kids and how he doesn’t REALLY care.

Also fakes injuries....Remember the "broken hand" last year? Didn't put on a cast till the end lmao

[Mulhollanddrive]

Every teammate already knew this.

Team wins = LeBron credit
Team loses = Teammates fault

EG. Kyrie Irving hits a contested 3 to win the championship, it makes LeBron (or in his words me) the GOAT.

[LKN]

I don't enjoy watching Lebron play. He just kind of floats and fills the stat box with little effort. I don't think he's nearly as good as his numbers indicate. He's always been aware of his stats and analytics and I think he shapes his game in a very stat friendly way, and rarely takes risks. I think he's a guy who is extremely sensitive to failure. He feels as long as he puts up stats he has done his part, and if the team fails it's because other guys didn't do the same. Guys who are killers just put themselves all out there and don't hold anything back. They want to rip your heart out at all costs. Lebron doesn't naturally have that in him. That's why he talks about being "activated". It's something he has to make a conscious effort to do. He's a great physical talent, but I don't see this "greatness" that fans from the east claimed since he was a teenager. Former greats seem to agree as well. He is no MJ or Kobe.

LeBron was indeed great and is flat out better then Kobe from a career perspective. Beyond that, I agree with your assessment on current LeBron.

He currently plays to avoid blame (first and foremost).

It's weird how insecure he still is. I'm not usually one for remote psychoanalysis... but with Lebron it is very obvious that he's quite insecure. (Granted, it's very common for humans to be insecure). Maybe because he grew up without a father? Not sure; he really does care what people think about him though, way more than he should given his level of success.

Well, none of us humans are perfect.

[LKN]

Every teammate already knew this.

Team wins = LeBron credit
Team loses = Teammates fault

EG. Kyrie Irving hits a contested 3 to win the championship, it makes LeBron (or in his words me) the GOAT.

Yeah - so that's a problem. IMO it's the star players JOB (like any good leader's job) to praise his team mates and try to shoulder the blame.

Good coaches do this also.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread... but good managers/leaders in any line of work should know it's best to shift praise to those you lead and take the blame on yourself (or the whole unit)

[thebigbird]

It is still endlessly amusing to see Kobe/Laker fans who've absolutely despised LeBron for a decade+ give their opinion on the guy as if we can't see right through their BS. The whole "I always knew LeBron was...." Righttttttt . They will just never forgive the guy for never letting Kobe have his day in the 00's to eventually surpassing him in the 10's.

btw, Lakers' win % with LeBron this season would currently be good for 6th seed in the West. Pretty much exactly where we expected them to be prior to the season's beginning. All with a roster that wouldn't win 30 games without LeBron (as clearly exemplified by that 6-12 stretch).

They love acting like their LeBron hate isn't motivated by insecurity about Kobe. LeBron never faced the Lakers in the playoffs. There was never a rivalry there. They just played twice a year, and only once in LA. They really had no reason to ever hate him, yet such a large percentage of their fans do. It's just because they wanted the conversation to be MJ v. Kobe, but because LeBron came along it never will be. He ruined it for them.

[thebigbird]

Every teammate already knew this.

Team wins = LeBron credit
Team loses = Teammates fault

EG. Kyrie Irving hits a contested 3 to win the championship, it makes LeBron (or in his words me) the GOAT.

It made LeBron the GOAT because he had back to back 40 point games while facing elimination and led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals for the series. When a team wins the player who played the best gets the credit. That's pretty simple to understand.

[Hobo4President]

It is still endlessly amusing to see Kobe/Laker fans who've absolutely despised LeBron for a decade+ give their opinion on the guy as if we can't see right through their BS. The whole "I always knew LeBron was...." Righttttttt . They will just never forgive the guy for never letting Kobe have his day in the 00's to eventually surpassing him in the 10's.

btw, Lakers' win % with LeBron this season would currently be good for 6th seed in the West. Pretty much exactly where we expected them to be prior to the season's beginning. All with a roster that wouldn't win 30 games without LeBron (as clearly exemplified by that 6-12 stretch).

They love acting like their LeBron hate isn't motivated by insecurity about Kobe. LeBron never faced the Lakers in the playoffs. There was never a rivalry there. They just played twice a year, and only once in LA. They really had no reason to ever hate him, yet such a large percentage of their fans do. It's just because they wanted the conversation to be MJ v. Kobe, but because LeBron came along it never will be. He ruined it for them.

The funny thing is Kobe isn't close to MJs level regardless of Lebron. You'd think they'd hate Tim Duncan and Shaq just as much because they're also his peers who pushed him outside of the top 10.

[LeonGenesis]

Of course..that's why he is GM Lebron. He was the one who force Cleveland to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson when Cleveland knew they weren't good enough for big money.... Cleveland had no choice but to make him happy. And that's why Cleveland owner was fed up with him. He is chasing after Jordan ring count..and he knows that but won't admit it. The guy will do anything to achieve that...and he will trade the whole Lakers team to select all 15 All-Stars players....he needs ALL of them

[An Unbiased Fan]

It is still endlessly amusing to see Kobe/Laker fans who've absolutely despised LeBron for a decade+ give their opinion on the guy as if we can't see right through their BS. The whole "I always knew LeBron was...." Righttttttt . They will just never forgive the guy for never letting Kobe have his day in the 00's to eventually surpassing him in the 10's.

btw, Lakers' win % with LeBron this season would currently be good for 6th seed in the West. Pretty much exactly where we expected them to be prior to the season's beginning. All with a roster that wouldn't win 30 games without LeBron (as clearly exemplified by that 6-12 stretch).

Yeh weird, why do Laker fans talk about....the Lakers. We should be totally cool with the Luke whispers, the AD debacle and our roster being offered publicly, or Lebron now calling out the same roster he tried to move, despite not playing defense himself this season.

Lakers are bigger than Lebron, they are bigger than Kobe, they are bigger than Sahq. You think Kobe didn't get crap from Laker fans? Or Shaq when they were getting bounced by Utah? Or Magic when he was getting called Tragic? Or Kareem when they missed the playoffs? This isn't Cleveland, and no one is happy without contending.

[clyde21]

I literally just showed you that the drops in advanced numbers were not substantial. But don't let the facts get in the way of a narrative.

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

so what's the notion that LeBron 'makes everyone around him better' based on if we can't see it in the box scores or advanced metrics?

[AmusingFiddle]

I honestly don’t see the intensity level activated. You want to see intensity, go watch some footage of Kobe in the years leading up to his ACL injury.

I think, as he did in Clev, he is being passive on purpose to prove a point. It really bothers me that he doesn’t just take over the game if the others don’t bring it every night.


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He probably thinks that if he just tried to do everything himself ever game the team will never get better around him. Logically that makes sense for most things. He probably also doesn't want to injury himself again trying to go for 40 every game, because that would certainly make the situation worse.

With the Cavs last yet and even for a few years, there were a lot of games where he just seemed to always do enough to keep it close. Score a basket here and there to keep the deficit to 8-9-10 points or so. Go hard for a possession to end a scoreless streak. Like he was always waiting to see if someone else would take over the game.

Compared to a lot of guys LeBron seems much more big picture and long term focused than most. Guys like Kobe or WB, MJ or whomever treated just about every game like a war, they didn't care about the next one or next season. LeBron, or even guys like Tim Duncan and Magic Johnson seemed to take a different approach, big picture guys. Most players are probably somewhere in the middle, and are more at the mercy of the game or the pace than anything.

With this team he probably wants those guys to show urgency or intensity to win now, rather than just waiting around for it to happen. Maybe that's just part of the culture this Lakers crew has established the past few years, not really any sense of urgency and always a "it'll get better next year" pov that isn't really the case. It certainly took some time for the Cavs to get that in 2014-15, and outside of some short stretches I'm not sure they really ever did. So many times in 2017 and even 2018 it just seemed like no one cared and just knew that no matter what they'd probably end up in the playoffs or in the Finals even if individually players performed poorly. With this team it sort of feels like a number of guys don't seem invested in the long term and have no reason to care, or are young enough they don't feel any sense of urgency.

Couldn’t have said it any better myself.


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[Nutty Nats Fan]

Some of you anti-Lebron people are nuts.

I'm not even that huge of a Lebron fan; I don't find his style of play particularly entertaining and I think MJ was clearly better.

That being said, I can't deny the guy is an awesome player and is IMO a top-3 player of all time (I don't think anyone could put him out of the top 5 - even if you really don't like him). Comparing him to Kobe is absurd. Come on; there are things to criticize with Lebron, but this absurd hater nonsense makes it difficult to have a real conversation.

People are allowed to have different opinions. Ask former players and you get a much different opinion of Lebron. Message boards try to bully a generation into agreeing with one opinion. I've been watching the NBA for 35 years and I just flat out don't like this guy. I don't enjoy watching him play and I don't like his God complex personality. Don't care for his self-praise when the team succeeds and finger-pointing when they lose. I've seen enough greats in my lifetime to form my own opinion. I don't need people telling me what I should think. Looking forward to the day he retires.

Former players are motivated by their own agendas. Guys like Paul Pierce are jealous as hell of Lebron and therefore bash him at any opportunity.

Yeah, at least Lebron isn't doing that. He only bashes his own team mates at any opportunity.