What exactly makes Tatum more talked about/ranked higher than Pascal Siakim?

[TheGameWinner]

This can't be a real question.

Jason Tatum is clearly as good as Pascal at the age of 20. His value universally around the league is also higher. I love Spicy P, but lets not get carried away.

The "mileage" theory also is one that's played out. Both guys have a bright future and lets leave it at that.

I'm also ok with Pascal being under the radar - means we'll pay him less than max as an FA.

[The_Hater]

This can't be a real question.

Jason Tatum is clearly as good as Pascal at the age of 20. .

You think it’s ‘clear’. Most others, even Celtic fans posting in this thread, seem to disagree.

There is literally zero chance that Tatum is having the same impact as Siakam this season. Statistically it’s not even close. And I like Tatum and I’m constantly propping him up as a future star. But he’s played well below thst level the current season.

[dhsilv2]

I think part of it is looks that helps Tatum to be honest. Male fans don’t want to admit it but when their prospects look like guys they can imagine in commercials physically due to their looks they tend to boost their support of the player more. The prospects in the league that are more traditionally good-looking always tend to be more popular in comparison to the more average looking dudes. For a long time I’ve heard stuff like “He just has the looks of a Star.” I remember when people used to say the same thing of Rudy Gay when he was young.

Most male fans won’t admit they’re influenced by it but all sports fans want to imagine their prospects becoming the next big thing and Tatum has a look to him that’s easier to advertise than someone like Siakam.

If Kris Middleton’s game somehow transferred to Chandler Parsons he’d be way more popular than Middleton is. It’s just how people are.

Siakim is way more jacked...so I'm not following the looks thing. Siakim would be way better in a male forward action flick. Tatum would be the guy Siakim was shooting.

Also, don’t forget the prejudicial element that Shaq dropped on national TV at the all star game about about Stephen Curry. There’s truly some resentment in black America over a perception that lighter-skinned black Americans seem to perceived separately and more favorably in many ways including popularity in movies, music and on TV.

Tatum looks like someone Disney would cast. Pascal does not. And this can influence bias in people perceive Star power without even realizing it.

All of this stuff adds up. It’s not the main reason obviously. It may only be a small tiny reason but it contributes on a subconscious level toward how fans view players and star potential. Tatum was seen by some as a future face of the league in part, but obviously not limited to, the fact that he “looks the part” to a lot of people.

If Aminu had Giannis game would he be seen as the face of the sport the way Giannis is?

I get why women might like Tatum...he looks like some kinda young model dude, but men? Siakim is way more manly looking. Guys want to be Arnold, not brad pitt.

[HollowEarth]

[ . . . ]
neither of them are particularly good looking. one is just lighter.

You're crazy. I'd be heart broken if I got Freaky Fridayed with Pascal Siakim. He's got that I-just-watched-my-dog-get-runover-in-the-highway resting face.

And that shouldn't be a big deal, but I think it really is for the media.

Edit: Siakim is Ham, Tatum's Steerforth

[CoachD]

No, we understand that players peak athletically at a younger age than most people realize. This is a problem for someone's peak...you don't keep recovering like a 20 year old at 30. You can with skills and development expend that prime into your early 30's but that's extremely rare.

There are examples of players that don't have a lot of miles on their body playing well into their early 30s.

Even still.

Siakam is 24, not 29. If he has 6 years playing at THIS level, he's a super-valuable player. If he continues to improve just a little each year, he will be a 4-5 time all star, and a guy who is one of the best in the league at impacting wins.

I remember when Dion Waiters was a kid in Cleveland, and Cavs fans would yell that he was averaging 15 ppg as a second year player, and it was OBVIOUS he was going to be better than Demar, Butler etc because he was only a 2nd year player. All of those fans said if you had to choose between them, you'd choose Waiters because he's already so dynamic and only 20 or 21 years old. Fast forward a bunch of years, and he's never evolved past that point. He's exactly the same guy with even MORE tunnel vision. Waiters playing into his 30s at a high level isn't a concern, because he will likely not even be in the league.

We're talking potential here. We all know that no player is a sure thing to keep improving. But after 26, athletic ability flatlines or declines (unless someone is out of shape). This creates a very real cap on how much upside is left to be tapped into. That's why Tatum gets more hype, he's got a lot longer till we expect to see an athletic decline.

26?????
You're kidding right?

[lobosloboslobos]

These seem to be generally provable:

- Siakim is having a better season offensively and defensively than Tatum
- Siakim is a better athlete than Tatum
- Siakim has a more diverse skillset
- Siakim is improving much more rapidly than Tatum

These are totally unknowable:

- who has the higher ceiling
- who will have the better career

Given the above set of factors, choosing Tatum is a gamble that could pay off, but Siakim looks like the safer bet for at least the next 4-5 years.

[dhsilv2]

There are examples of players that don't have a lot of miles on their body playing well into their early 30s.

Even still.

Siakam is 24, not 29. If he has 6 years playing at THIS level, he's a super-valuable player. If he continues to improve just a little each year, he will be a 4-5 time all star, and a guy who is one of the best in the league at impacting wins.

I remember when Dion Waiters was a kid in Cleveland, and Cavs fans would yell that he was averaging 15 ppg as a second year player, and it was OBVIOUS he was going to be better than Demar, Butler etc because he was only a 2nd year player. All of those fans said if you had to choose between them, you'd choose Waiters because he's already so dynamic and only 20 or 21 years old. Fast forward a bunch of years, and he's never evolved past that point. He's exactly the same guy with even MORE tunnel vision. Waiters playing into his 30s at a high level isn't a concern, because he will likely not even be in the league.

We're talking potential here. We all know that no player is a sure thing to keep improving. But after 26, athletic ability flatlines or declines (unless someone is out of shape). This creates a very real cap on how much upside is left to be tapped into. That's why Tatum gets more hype, he's got a lot longer till we expect to see an athletic decline.

26?????
You're kidding right?

No...you think it's younger?

[CoachD]

We're talking potential here. We all know that no player is a sure thing to keep improving. But after 26, athletic ability flatlines or declines (unless someone is out of shape). This creates a very real cap on how much upside is left to be tapped into. That's why Tatum gets more hype, he's got a lot longer till we expect to see an athletic decline.

26?????
You're kidding right?

No...you think it's younger?

26-27 years of age is widely regarded as the time most high level athletes ENTER their athletic prime .... not start to exit it.

It's also the point when most bigs START to understand and figure out the league, as bigs almost always take longer to develop.

[Oscar9992]

Siakam is better right now but he is 24, while Tatum is 20

[dukes_wild]

Why are people bringing up potential?

Tatum's potential isn't very high, I've been saying this since last season started. He was already a very polished offensive player even his one year at Duke and his weaknesses will prevent him from taking the next step. He finished with 80th+ percentiles in almost every single play type last season so it's not like he's got a lot of room to grow in the things he already does pretty well (spot up shooting, isolation, etc)

Anyways the answers to why is Tatum more talked about is very simple:

- Tatum was a top 3 pick, Siakam was projected to go early-mid 2nd before the Raptors took him at 27.
- The elephant in the room: Tatum is American, Siakam is African.
- Tatum plays for the Celtics.

If Siakam was doing what he's been doing this season, especially since the start of January on the Lakers or Celtics, the media would be talking about him almost every night.

[Prokorov]

Isn't Pascal factually the better player and better all around?

only thing I can think of is age and shot creating abilities (pascal is still more efficient)

Even if Tatum isnt better, he isnt far off. Statistically they score the exact same amount...pascal gets less then 1 more rebound per game and less then 1 more assist per game. basically:

Tatum 16/6/2
Pascal 16/7/3

Pascal 55/37/79 on 63 TS% and 19 PER
Tatum 46/38/86 on 57 TS% and 16 PER

Pascal is more efficient, but Tatum creates more of his own offense.

I dont think any of that is really different enough to offset that Tatum is 4-5 years younger with more growth and higher ceiling (i know i know siakim has only been playing ball for a few years, etc...)

You're only looking at the offensive side of things though (Siakam has similar raw stats with better efficiency)

Siakam is a very good passer and ballhandler. He can defend multiple positions from wings to bigs. He's one of the best players in transition. The only thing lacking right now in Siakam's game is a midrange jumper.

Tatum has the age factor and the potential for improvement on Siakam. Tatum might eventually get to (or pass) Siakam's level, but Siakam is the better player right now and could be the better player for the foreseeable future.

i view tatum as an elite defender

[ITYSL]

All these reasons like one being lighter than the other are hilarious. It's not rocket science. The main reason is playoff performance.

Tatum has shown that he can be one of the leaders of a contending team in the playoffs. If Siakam balls this postseason and Tatum falls flat, the narrative and rankings will change quickly.

[dukes_wild]

Siakam is better right now but he is 24, while Tatum is 20

This doesn't mean anything. Development isn't linear, just because a guy is 4 years younger doesn't mean he's automatically gonna get better.

This year is absolute proof of that. Siakam has improved immensely in every category from his age 23 to age 24 season, he's added a jump shot, play-making has improved, his minutes are up 11 and usage rate is up 4% AND playing against starters compared to playing against bench units last season and despite all that his TS% has skyrocketed from 55% to 63%, 3.6 RPM this season compared to 1.53 last season while Tatum has become less efficient due to a slightly larger usage rate and hasn't added anything to his game that he didn't have last season.

Pascal has morphed his game from being a sort of old school post PF at New Mexico State to a prototype starting caliber 4 at the NBA level who can space the floor, rebound the ball and run transition offense and play in any combination of line-ups due to his incredible versatility on both ends of the floor. Just because he's doing that between the ages of 21-24 while Tatum is still 20 shouldn't take anything away from that

[demcanes26]

It's really about their second contract. Tatum is going to be 22 when he's a RFA, while Siakam is going to be 25-26. Teams like the Pelicians are going to take Tatum because he's going to be locked up for 5 to 7 years, and will still be 26 when he opts out, and leave New Orleans.

[dhsilv2]

26?????
You're kidding right?

No...you think it's younger?

26-27 years of age is widely regarded as the time most high level athletes ENTER their athletic prime .... not start to exit it.

It's also the point when most bigs START to understand and figure out the league, as bigs almost always take longer to develop.

Best PERs by age.

MJ 24, 27, 26, 25
West 26, 27, 31, 25
Isiah Thomas 23, 24, 22, 21
Pippen 28, 29, 26, 31 (an expection worth noting MJ was gone for 28 and 29).
Kobe 27, 24, 28, 22
Lebron 24, 28, 25, 27
Duncan 27, 25, 28, 26
Pau 26, 30, 29, 25
Garnett 27, 28, 29, 26

Now remember I said at 26 athletic ability starts to drop or flat line. Certainly a player can get better at their game but at that point the weight lifting, the maturity from going from a kid to teen to man has reached that tipping point. And even with that, and this was a pretty random sampling of guys, but even if you take a guy who lasted forever in Parish, his top 3 seasons were 27, 29, 28 with his 4th best at a freak 35 so lets not act like careers end, but if the objective is how far or high can someone go, those peaks just aren't likely to keep happening once you're 30. 26 is a pretty likely point where you're as athletic as you'll ever be, so better produce over those next few years.

[The_Hater]

We're talking potential here. We all know that no player is a sure thing to keep improving. But after 26, athletic ability flatlines or declines (unless someone is out of shape). This creates a very real cap on how much upside is left to be tapped into. That's why Tatum gets more hype, he's got a lot longer till we expect to see an athletic decline.

26?????
You're kidding right?

No...you think it's younger?

No you’re right on point here. 25-29 is generally considered the peak years for an NBA players, there have been studies about this but I don’t have a link.

But remember that having watched Lowry and Derozan improve much later than what is normal has skewed the perceptions of many Raptor fans. And with Siakam, the fact that he picked up the sport much later in life may have moved his development curve forward as well. That seems to be what is happening right now. Time will tell on that.

[The_Hater]

26?????
You're kidding right?

No...you think it's younger?

26-27 years of age is widely regarded as the time most high level athletes ENTER their athletic prime .... not start to exit it.

It's also the point when most bigs START to understand and figure out the league, as bigs almost always take longer to develop.

You’re pretty much saying the exact same thing while somehow arguing the opposite.

You enter your prime at 26 which means that <26 are your development years. Dhsilv never said that a players peak ends at age 26, you assumed that, he even added that it flatlines around 26 which means there would be a few seasons at that level.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Might just be the Celtics this year but Tatum has came back down to earth quite a bit. Which to me doesnt make a ton of sense since he is still at least the 2nd option on the Celtics

[CoachD]

No...you think it's younger?

26-27 years of age is widely regarded as the time most high level athletes ENTER their athletic prime .... not start to exit it.

It's also the point when most bigs START to understand and figure out the league, as bigs almost always take longer to develop.

You’re pretty much saying the exact same thing while somehow arguing the opposite.

You enter your prime at 26 which means that <26 are your development years. Dhsilv never said that a players peak ends at age 26, you assumed that, he even added that it flatlines around 26 which means there would be a few seasons at that level.

He said that at 26 you flatline or decline athletically. That's just not true. ENTERING your athletic prime is when athletes are most comfortable in their own skin, and are able to do things they had never done before at a high level

[CoachD]

No...you think it's younger?

26-27 years of age is widely regarded as the time most high level athletes ENTER their athletic prime .... not start to exit it.

It's also the point when most bigs START to understand and figure out the league, as bigs almost always take longer to develop.

You’re pretty much saying the exact same thing while somehow arguing the opposite.

You enter your prime at 26 which means that <26 are your development years. Dhsilv never said that a players peak ends at age 26, you assumed that, he even added that it flatlines around 26 which means there would be a few seasons at that level.

He said that at 26 you flatline or decline athletically. That's just not true. ENTERING your athletic prime is when athletes are most comfortable in their own skin, and are able to do things they had never done before at a high level