Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[Gnik]

The funny thing is people replying here without reading the OP and just the subject LMAO ya'll funny

[RakimAbdulJabar]

No, the footage is being dismissed because lebron sagging of a sub 30% shooter isn't bad defense.
Tracking durant and forcing him to switch onto another defender isn't bad defense.



The tape is being dismissed because the poster using the tape doesn't understand what he's watching.

Not every example in the YouTube clips provided is bad defense or Lebron's fault. Somewhere between 60-70% are.

Good. Now tell me what % of lebron's defensive possesions are bad ones.
Oh wait? You can't?

Then you can't really tell me how good, bad, not bad, or how detrimental or beneficial lebron's defense is, can you?

This is why we use stats. And real analysts, supplement those stats with tape tracking where they take a steady sample and count how frequently a specifc type of play. A few sentences on a highlight video isn't analysis. It's a biased sample. Acting informed because you are capable of writing those sentences is silly.

If you're going to use an eyetest, use one from someone whose watched a good sample size of tape:

Watch on YouTube

Otherwise chill, coz your eyetest is literally useless.

You clearly have an issue with reading comprehension

I don't need to tell you what % of Lebrons defense is good/bad because my argument (if you took the time to read it properly) has never been about rating Lebron as a defender, simply to agree with the point that he has been lazier on defense the last few years.

As I said earlier, I'm questioning his effort, is there a stat which you can use to track effort? You think the eye test is useless, I think the eye test is the only way to judge effort. Effort, not overall effectiveness, they're two very different things

I'm so sick of having to break this down and I'm certain you're trolling as usual but I'll do it one last time.

Imagine someone running a race, they're one of the fastest people in the world and they run the race at a good time statistically speaking. You see the result and think hey that's a good time. But you watch the race and realise they were jogging. There was no way of knowing that from simply looking at their time, but by watching you were able to see their effort or lack thereof.

I also watched plenty of Lakers games last season, maybe your eyetest is literally useless, mine isn't

You provided a clip from YouTube to support your argument, did you even watch the whole thing or any of it? 6:18-7:00 of the clip YOU posted is basically the argument I and others have been making

This is no different to someone saying Kobe Bryant took ill advised shots. No one (unbiased) would argue that Kobe was a bad shooter, they guy could obviously shoot the ball, BUT he also took his fair share of bad shots and he was criticised for it, this is really not that different, because effort just like shot selection is something that a player can directly control for the most part.

I feel like I couldn't be any clearer.

You don't need to keep quoting me and trying to 'win' this argument because you can't. You're entitled to your opinion, good for you, enjoy it.

[Gnik]

He doesn’t pass the eye test. Almost Shaqtin’ a fool-James Harden a few years ago level...

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

Defense is 50% effort, 25% skill & 25% athleticism/physical attributes. The eye test definitely has limits, but it clearly exposes a player’s lackadaisical attitude towards certain possessions that cannot be validated by mere statistics.

LeBron used to be a great defender, but he definitely slowed down and it’s not due to physical limitations but with his lack of interest. He definitely checked out when he realized how difficult it is to rule the West.

Just my two cents...

LeBron checked out way before LA, it's not because the west is too difficult lol

[freethedevil]

Not every example in the YouTube clips provided is bad defense or Lebron's fault. Somewhere between 60-70% are.

Good. Now tell me what % of lebron's defensive possesions are bad ones.
Oh wait? You can't?

Then you can't really tell me how good, bad, not bad, or how detrimental or beneficial lebron's defense is, can you?

This is why we use stats. And real analysts, supplement those stats with tape tracking where they take a steady sample and count how frequently a specifc type of play. A few sentences on a highlight video isn't analysis. It's a biased sample. Acting informed because you are capable of writing those sentences is silly.

If you're going to use an eyetest, use one from someone whose watched a good sample size of tape:

Watch on YouTube

Otherwise chill, coz your eyetest is literally useless.

Imagine someone running a race, they're one of the fastest people in the world and they run the race at a good time statistically speaking. You see the result and think hey that's a good time. But you watch the race and realise they were jogging. There was no way of knowing that from simply looking at their time, but by watching you were able to see their effort or lack thereof.

And his team's defence still improved with him on the floor. You can speculate that someone "isn't applying effort", but it's ultimately an irrelevant critique unless you can tell me how much it hurt or helped his team. Lebron can play d at 30%, how he does things is useless unless you can properly evaluate the results.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's actually still pretty decent when locked in, however, he just has those eye-popping lowlights that make you shake your head.

[freethedevil]

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

Defense is 50% effort, 25% skill & 25% athleticism/physical attributes. The eye test definitely has limits, but it clearly exposes a player’s lackadaisical attitude towards certain possessions that cannot be validated by mere statistics.

LeBron used to be a great defender, but he definitely slowed down and it’s not due to physical limitations but with his lack of interest. He definitely checked out when he realized how difficult it is to rule the West.

Just my two cents...

LeBron checked out way before LA, it's not because the west is too difficult lol

Ah yes, it was "effort". It's not that he's in his 16th season of play.

Lebron absolutely isn't physically capable of playing like he did in the 2016 playoffs or the entire 2011, 2012, 2013, 2010, or 2009 seasons.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

Good. Now tell me what % of lebron's defensive possesions are bad ones.
Oh wait? You can't?

Then you can't really tell me how good, bad, not bad, or how detrimental or beneficial lebron's defense is, can you?

This is why we use stats. And real analysts, supplement those stats with tape tracking where they take a steady sample and count how frequently a specifc type of play. A few sentences on a highlight video isn't analysis. It's a biased sample. Acting informed because you are capable of writing those sentences is silly.

If you're going to use an eyetest, use one from someone whose watched a good sample size of tape:

Watch on YouTube

Otherwise chill, coz your eyetest is literally useless.

Imagine someone running a race, they're one of the fastest people in the world and they run the race at a good time statistically speaking. You see the result and think hey that's a good time. But you watch the race and realise they were jogging. There was no way of knowing that from simply looking at their time, but by watching you were able to see their effort or lack thereof.

And his team's defence still improved with him on the floor. You can speculate that someone "isn't applying effort", but it's ultimately an irrelevant critique unless you can tell me how much it hurt or helped his team. Lebron can play d at 30%, how he does things is useless unless you can properly evaluate the results.

It's not speculation when you have specific examples and your argument is just way off what I and many others consider to be good basketball. The results? That's the part you're not putting together. You can look at the stats that show defense was better with him on/off or whatever but what that won't show you is

1. How it affects the rest of the team. Not that I agree with it as everyone should have their own motivation regardless of what your 'leader' is doing, but it's common knowledge that players can be affected by seeing their leader not giving effort and it having a flow on effect

2. Player A doesn't get back on defense, choosing to yell at the ref instead, opposing team has a 5 on 4 advantage and end up making an open 3. Team loses by 1 or 2 points. This may not reflect that persons overall defensive efficiency but that lack of effort is contributing to the loss. That loss could end up being the difference between home court advantage if you make the playoffs.

It could also end up being completely meaningless over the course of the season, it may end up having no effect, but why take the chance?

I used to coach a basketball team many years ago, and if someone wasn't getting back on defense they were sitting at the next dead ball. It didn't mean they were in the doghouse, or wouldn't get back in. Maybe they're tired, that's fine, but if you can't give the same effort on defense as you are on offense then to me that's a problem, because it's just as important.

[cornchip]

Don't deny that Lebron is still a good defender.

But the stats presented are a LONG way from telling who is a good defender or not. They give a general baseline sure....but they don't account for "pure" stops.

A pure stop imo is when a 1 on 1 posession (no help or double) which results in a pass out with no assist or hockey assist, a missed shot, or a turnover.

What good is a player's defense is if he gets blown by, help arrives, and he gets an easy assist. From my understanding, that's not reflected in PPP and actually dilutes that number.

Kawhi is the best in the league at pure stops imo but advanced stats has him below many subpar defenders. Doesn't make much sense.

[SpreeS]

AVG SPEED on DEF #22 (the last from all LAL players who played in 2018/2019)
Contested REB% #13 (only 27.1%)
DFGA #7 (10.1)
DFGA per min #22 (the last)
Contested shots #9 (5.7)
Contested shots per min #22 (the last)

Lebron defense is tragedy. He doesnt move, defend the weakest op player and get a lot of uncontested REB.

[SpreeS]

Last 3 in NBA on avg def speed

Dirk
Harden
Lebron
Next one Jamal Crawford

Nice group of really old bad defenders

Another one: Bottom 10 players with least contested shots per game in >32min.

8 guards + Ariza + Lebron (and he played a lot at PF)

[scrabbarista]

All I know is LeBron was robbed of his Shaqtin' a Fool MVP Award this season. Such a travesty. The voters should have their rights revoked!

That inbounds off the backboard would get it from any other player but Lebron is protected. Noone dares criticize the king.

And letting the ball roll 3/4 of the court, then pushing it out of bounds. And the kung fu defense. And the leaving guys open all season. C'mon now. The backboard pass was his MVP moment, though.

[freethedevil]

AVG SPEED on DEF #22 (the last from all LAL players who played in 2018/2019)
Contested REB% #13 (only 27.1%)
DFGA #7 (10.1)
DFGA per min #22 (the last)
Contested shots #9 (5.7)
Contested shots per min #22 (the last)

Lebron defense is tragedy. He doesnt move, defend the weakest op player and get a lot of uncontested REB.

And yet a top ten defence was better with him on the court. It's almost like all the **** you listed captures only a fraction of defensive impact.

[freethedevil]

Don't deny that Lebron is still a good defender.

But the stats presented are a LONG way from telling who is a good defender or not. They give a general baseline sure....but they don't account for "pure" stops.

A pure stop imo is when a 1 on 1 posession (no help or double) which results in a pass out with no assist or hockey assist, a missed shot, or a turnover.

What good is a player's defense is if he gets blown by, help arrives, and he gets an easy assist. From my understanding, that's not reflected in PPP and actually dilutes that number.

Kawhi is the best in the league at pure stops imo but advanced stats has him below many subpar defenders. Doesn't make much sense.

You greatly overestimate the importance of "pure stops" in a 5v5 basketball game with a spaced out floor.

[freethedevil]

It's not Lebron being horrific at defense.

It's him being nonexistent at times.

Kuzma pushing him to guard someone should never happen.

Kuzma runs into lebron instead of his man and apparently that was bron's mistake.

[Gnik]

I think we can all agree that LeBron would be at least a decent defender if he wanted/needed to

[cornchip]

Don't deny that Lebron is still a good defender.

But the stats presented are a LONG way from telling who is a good defender or not. They give a general baseline sure....but they don't account for "pure" stops.

A pure stop imo is when a 1 on 1 posession (no help or double) which results in a pass out with no assist or hockey assist, a missed shot, or a turnover.

What good is a player's defense is if he gets blown by, help arrives, and he gets an easy assist. From my understanding, that's not reflected in PPP and actually dilutes that number.

Kawhi is the best in the league at pure stops imo but advanced stats has him below many subpar defenders. Doesn't make much sense.

You greatly overestimate the importance of "pure stops" in a 5v5 basketball game with a spaced out floor.

How so? Guys who can generate "pure stops" should be the most valuable defensive players on the court besides elite rim protectors.

If you're able to defend players especially elite ones without help, it renders shooters on the perimeter far less effective. That's why most championship teams have at least one (Kawhi, Klay, peak Lebron) or two (Siakam, Draymond). Team defense is essential but so is straight man to man defense with playing against elite teams.

[dorandragic]

It's not Lebron being horrific at defense.

It's him being nonexistent at times.

Kuzma pushing him to guard someone should never happen.

Kuzma runs into lebron instead of his man and apparently that was bron's mistake.

It was LeBron's mistake, LeBron basically set a screen for Gallinari.

He either should've switched or if he was not going to switch move out out the way by stepping toward Harrell or sinking even lower to the baseline. You can't get between your teammate and the player he's guarding if your teammate is about to close out. This is a very basic defensive principle.

[tsirigoj]

Oh, wait. When looking at all the data available, the exact opposite is true. NBA.com has play type data available again and guess what? It shows that not only is James not a bad defender, but he’s rather a very good one.

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Additionally, opponents whom James defends shoot 3.8% WORSE when defended by James. https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/

In December, they shot a whopping 9.8% WORSE.
https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=3

—Lakers are 3.1 points per 100 possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

—James’ DRPM is 1.74, top 10% in the NBA. His DRPM is ahead of players such as Smart, Winslow, Butler, Ball, Dipo, Lowry, Kidd-Gilchrist, Tatum and Brown, KD, Simmons, LMA, [REST ARE ALL NEGATIVE DEFENDERS PER DRPM—Like James was last year]: Kawhi, Brogdon, Ingram, SGA

PICK AND ROLL BALL HANDLER (2+ defensive possessions per game, 50+ games played

James is 2nd best out of 141 players, top 6%, who defend 2+ such possessions per game.

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*2

HAND OFF DEFENSE (.5+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 5th out of 140 players in defending hand offs, top 10%.

https://stats.nba.com/players/hand-off/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

ISO DEFENSE (1+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 15th of 61 players, top 27% in points per possession allowed (.78)
ahead of Siakam, Draymond, Simmons, Klay, Aminu. For reference, Giannis allows .72 PPP.

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=POSS*GE*1:GP*GE*50

SPOT UP DEFENSE (3+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 35th of 94 players, top 43% in PPP allowed, ahead of Embiid, Brown, Lowry, Draymond, KD, Danny Green,

https://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*3

ROLL MAN DEFENSE IN PICK AND ROLL (only .2 possessions per game)


Top 14% in the league

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*.

DEFENSE OFF SCREENS (.4+possessions per game)

James is 18th out of 163 players, top 20% in the NBA.

https://stats.nba.com/players/off-screen/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

POST UP DEFENSE (.5+ possessions per game, 50+ games played)

James is 49th of 176 players, top 30%

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

Thanks for this, but also, duhhh already knew it haha.

Many of the greats (Kobe included) saved energy on the defensive end. As you age, you can play at 100% on both ends of the court, but it'll drain you.

It's a looonnnnggggggg season. Having players like Avery Bradley, Danny Green, and Anthony Davis will help prolong LeBron's career (he only has to guard the 3rd or even 4th best player on the court for the other team).

[freethedevil]

Don't deny that Lebron is still a good defender.

But the stats presented are a LONG way from telling who is a good defender or not. They give a general baseline sure....but they don't account for "pure" stops.

A pure stop imo is when a 1 on 1 posession (no help or double) which results in a pass out with no assist or hockey assist, a missed shot, or a turnover.

What good is a player's defense is if he gets blown by, help arrives, and he gets an easy assist. From my understanding, that's not reflected in PPP and actually dilutes that number.

Kawhi is the best in the league at pure stops imo but advanced stats has him below many subpar defenders. Doesn't make much sense.

You greatly overestimate the importance of "pure stops" in a 5v5 basketball game with a spaced out floor.

How so? Guys who can generate "pure stops" should be the most valuable defensive players on the court besides elite rim protectors.

If you're able to defend players especially elite ones without help, it renders shooters on the perimeter far less effective. That's why most championship teams have at least one (Kawhi, Klay, peak Lebron) or two (Siakam, Draymond). Team defense is essential but so is straight man to man defense with playing against elite teams.

Because literally no one in the league can defend without help. Kawhi's "purestops" vs the bucks happened with the aid of 3 man- 4 man walls. Kawhi got blown past by draymond green and curry in the finals and with a traditional defensive scheme would have been made into a traffic cone against giannis. Aside from the great defensive anchors(gobert, green) or highly switchable perimiter studs(peak lebron), good defenders have bad matchups and strong matchups. They are able to rotate to good matchups and can force bad matchups into help. From there , the ability to fight through or run around screens, rebound, time your help, communicate, and time your rotations serve as differentiator's. Then there's your ability to read passing lanes, take charges, discourage atatckers, ect. "Pure stops' aren't a thing. Man defence is merely a part of a game, but it isn't something that's done by a single player.

[cornchip]

You greatly overestimate the importance of "pure stops" in a 5v5 basketball game with a spaced out floor.

How so? Guys who can generate "pure stops" should be the most valuable defensive players on the court besides elite rim protectors.

If you're able to defend players especially elite ones without help, it renders shooters on the perimeter far less effective. That's why most championship teams have at least one (Kawhi, Klay, peak Lebron) or two (Siakam, Draymond). Team defense is essential but so is straight man to man defense with playing against elite teams.

Because literally no one in the league can defend without help. Kawhi's "purestops" vs the bucks happened with the aid of 3 man- 4 man walls. Kawhi got blown past by draymond green and curry in the finals and with a traditional defensive scheme would have been made into a traffic cone against giannis. Aside from the great defensive anchors(gobert, green) or highly switchable perimiter studs(peak lebron), good defenders have bad matchups and strong matchups. They are able to rotate to good matchups and can force bad matchups into help. From there , the ability to fight through or run around screens, rebound, time your help, communicate, and time your rotations serve as differentiator's. Then there's your ability to read passing lanes, take charges, discourage atatckers, ect. "Pure stops' aren't a thing. Man defence is merely a part of a game, but it isn't something that's done by a single player.

You're conflating two things here.

There is team defense and schemes which you've mentioned and even I said was extremely important. Yes, that aids defenders especially against elite players (Raps vs. Bucks, Beverley on Durant).

But there is also one on one defense that forces players into bad shots, closing off driving lanes without fouling, and forcing deflections and bad passes with limited or no help. In fact, it's a key part of the Warriors defense (the ability to throw Iggy, Durant, Draymond, Klay and get relatively favorable matchups everytime there's a switch). That's not to say there's no rotation or there aren't instances when there is help for a unfavorable matchup especially against elite players. But to say there are no instances where a player stops another player without help is extremely hyperbolic.