Player Rnkings Celtics vs Raptors series

[TheBounceIsReal]

Come on. Kemba has only ever been a low tier all star. While Lowry is about the same level now, he had peaked as a mid tier all star

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They're pretty close actually. Kemba has made four all star games, two starting. Lowry has made six, but he's also four years older and has never started. Each have one 3rd team all-NBA. Kemba is better offensively and Lowry is better defensively.

Kemba's playoff stats are better but he was on a crap team most of his career and has only played in 17 playoff games to date. Lowry was an important player on a title run last year but still only averaged 15/4.9/6.6 on .576 TS, which is good but not great. He also has a deserved reputation as a choker in big playoff games/series.

Hard to definitively say one guy is better than the other.

Kemba is the better scorer as he can create his shot in more areas. Lowry has been the better playmaker because Kemba's passing has only been okay, but never a real asset compared to the average point guard. Lowry was a better finisher at the rim. If I gave a arbitrary videogame rating for the peaks of both, Kemba would be an 81-83 while Lowry would be 84-85.

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Gotta disagree. I can't find a link to back it up but per the broadcast last night Kemba lead the entire league in off the dribble three pointers made this year. He made 38% of his threes on 8.4 attempts per game this year compared to 35% on 8.0 attempts per game for Lowry. He's also on a team with an equal opportunity offense and number of other good distributors like Hayward. His assist numbers don't pop but that's more of a function of team and scheme than a knock on Kemba.

[Green89]

Looking back at this thread I still can't believe how underrated Smart is. Recency bias aside, no love for an All-Defense player who gets teammates involved, is a decent 3pnt shooter, undisputed team leader, and clutch AF.

He's literally everything Raptor fans say Lowry is, except he's a better defender, and isn't as goo taking it to the rim.

1. Tatum
2. Kemba
3. Lowry
4. Brown
5. Siakim
6. Smart
7. FVV
8. OG
9. Theis
10. Ibaka

People way to high on FVV, and not enough love for Jaylen Brown.

Theis better than Ibaka?

Theis is 2nd in the league in defensive real +/-, behind only Rudy Gobert. Ibaka ranked 75th in the league and 23rd out of all centers in the league.

[LoneyROY]

Anyone putting Jayson Tatum above Kyle Lowry doesn't have a clue about all the little things you need to do to win at the highest level, and is blinded by recency bias. Even without the intangibles 23.4/7/3/1.4 is not better than 19.4/5/7.5/1.4.

How about we take a look at their current playoff numbers:

Lowry - 14/6.5/6 on 36% and 27% from 3.

Tatum - 27/9/3 on 49% and 46.5% from 3.

Doesn't seem like a very difficult choice to me.

[themoneyteam2]

Anyone putting Jayson Tatum above Kyle Lowry doesn't have a clue about all the little things you need to do to win at the highest level, and is blinded by recency bias. Even without the intangibles 23.4/7/3/1.4 is not better than 19.4/5/7.5/1.4.

How about we take a look at their current playoff numbers:

Lowry - 14/6.5/6 on 36% and 27% from 3.

Tatum - 27/9/3 on 49% and 46.5% from 3.

Doesn't seem like a very difficult choice to me.

Yeah but are you taking into account Lowry's intangibles and leadership? That's gotta be worth more than 27 PPG on 49/46/82 splits right?

[Yinwest]

I'll take Smart down on the block against Lowry too.

It's obvious from this thread its that if the Celtics win it will have nothing to do with the Celtics. It will be that the Raptors didn't play up to expectations, or were victimized by the officials, or there were unlucky bounces, or lucky bounces that favored the Celtics (you know, like the one that enabled the Raptors to get past the Sixers last year). So get your excuses ready.

Looking forward to this series quite a bit.

Wow....you called it.

[Prokorov]

Do people agree with this list?


https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/nba-playoffs-power-ranking-best-players-celtics-raptors-series?int#slide-2

1 Tatum
2 Walker
3 Siakam
4 Brown
5 Van Vleet
6 Lowry
7 Ibaka
8 Powell
9 Smart
10 OG

Tatum/Brown
Walker
Lowry
Siakim
Ibaka
Smart
Van Vleet
Ibaka
OG

[Prokorov]

It's from local Boston media. Lowry is better player than Kemba. Lowry doesn't get targeted on defense like Kemba does.

Walker's durabulity needs to factor in

[macNcheese3]

Tatum is one heck of a player.

[Bhut Jolokia]

1. Jayson Tatum
2. Pascal Siakam
3. Kemba Walker
4. Jaylen Brown
5. Kyle Lowry
6. (Gordon Hayward)
7. Fred VanVleet
8. Marcus Smart
9. Serge Ibaka
10. OG Anunoby / Norman Powell / Daniel Theis

[pingpongrac]

I'm not even going to pretend like the Raps can't come back on us real fast. But, re-reading this thread, it's abundantly clear that several of you in here did not really know all that much about the team you were about to be playing.

I disagree. I feel like it was mostly fair. Tatum is clearly the best player in the series. After that, Lowry (though pretty lackluster offensively so far) is #2 then you have a pick 'em depending on the night for Siakam/Kemba/Brown/FVV. Smart has been the MVP of the series so far, but overall he's in the same tier as OG/Ibaka/Powell then you have the Theis/Gasol matchup that's more intangible-based. Wanamaker and Ojeleye are solid rotation players, but they're generally not as impactful as any of the players listed before them.

Simply put, the difference in the series has been Smart hitting threes at an absurd rate (11/20, mostly contested) while FVV and Lowry (6/35 combined, roughly half wide open) are both in the midst of an ice-cold shooting stretch. Smart's streaky shooting could come to a screeching halt in game 3 and FVV/Lowry could find their groove, which would obviously turn this series on its head.

While I agree that FVV and Lowry have uncharacteristically missed wide open threes, I think the Celtics' frenetic defense needs to be credited somewhat. I'm watching the defensive highlights and those wide open misses are either rushed or not in rhythm, which could be chalked up to the Celtics' great rotations and the threat of their athletes contesting the shots like they do for most of the game. If a screen does manage to free them up for a three, the fact that the Celtics keep running through those screens in order to contest is probably bothering the Raptors that they hoist up rushed shots. In other words, the Celtic defense is throwing the Raptors shooters out of rhythm.

Just look at the game-tying three that FVV missed at the end of Game 2: even though he was running full speed up court, Tatum was backpedaling at the same speed, keeping in step with him and contesting it at the right time, thus forcing an off-balance three. That's great, disciplined defense.

No doubt. Celtics defence has been very good and very disciplined. I missed Q1 of game 1, so I can't speak to the foul disparity that many Raptors fans were complaining about then, but I've felt like the series has been generally evenly officiated (not very well necessarily; Toronto was called for touch fouls in the first half last night then the same thing happened to Boston in the second half) and both teams have been digging in defensively. It's just frustrating and disappointing as a Raptors fan to be down 0-2 in large part to awful shooting from our two best three-point shooters while Smart has been red hot and drilled five straight threes in a 4-minute span when both teams were struggling to score for a large chunk before and after that streak.

[everdiso]

Tatum 39.6min, 27.5pts (27.6usg%/66.1ts%), 4.0ast/4.0to, 1.0st+bk
Lowry 37.4min, 16.5pts (24.4usg%/46.5ts%), 7.5ast/3.5to, 3.0st+bk

Walker 35.1min, 17.5pts (22.8usg%/54.6ts%), 7.0ast/2.0to, 0.5st+bk
VanVleet 40.6min, 15.0pts (23.8usg%/37.7ts%), 7.5ast/2.0to, 4.0st+bk

Brown 33.6min, 16.5pts (25.7usg%/49.0ts%), 3.0ast/3.0to, 2.5st+bk
Siakam 38.3min, 15.0pts (21.6usg%/42.2ts%), 4.0ast/1.5to, 3.0st+bk

Smart 34.8min, 20.0pts (22.3usg%/79.4ts%), 2.5ast/5.0to, 1.5st+bk
Anunoby 35.9min, 16.0pts (13.9usg%/75.9ts%), 0.0ast/1.0to, 1.5st+bk

Theis 27.9min, 8.0pts (15.4usg%/49.8ts%), 1.5ast/2.0to, 3.5st+bk
Gasol 23.6min, 6.5pts (16.7usg%/50.9ts%), 1.5ast/2.0to, 2.0st+bk


Williams 18.1min, 10.5pts (15.7usg%/89.3ts%), 1.0ast/1.0to, 2.0st+bk
Ibaka 26.4min, 16.0pts (20.8usg%/67.3ts%), 1.5ast/1.5to, 1.0st+bk

Wanamaker 18.5min, 3.5pts (12.0usg%/50.9ts%), 1.0ast/2.0to, 1.0st+bk
Powell 19.9min, 7.0pts (19.6usg%/39.1ts%), 0.5ast/0.5to, 0.0st+bk

[pingpongrac]

Looking back at this thread I still can't believe how underrated Smart is. Recency bias aside, no love for an All-Defense player who gets teammates involved, is a decent 3pnt shooter, undisputed team leader, and clutch AF.

He's literally everything Raptor fans say Lowry is, except he's a better defender, and isn't as goo taking it to the rim.

1. Tatum
2. Kemba
3. Lowry
4. Brown
5. Siakim
6. Smart
7. FVV
8. OG
9. Theis
10. Ibaka

People way to high on FVV, and not enough love for Jaylen Brown.

Theis better than Ibaka?

Theis is 2nd in the league in defensive real +/-, behind only Rudy Gobert. Ibaka ranked 75th in the league and 23rd out of all centers in the league.

Theis is much more comparable to Gasol. Low box score output, but they're there for defence and intangibles. Ibaka averaged 15.4 PPG on 58 TS% during the season, but he's bumped that up to 18.2 PPG (and nearly 10 REB) on 72 TS% in the playoffs so far. It's tougher to compare two completely different play styles, but I think it's pretty clear that Ibaka should be ranked higher (especially with how he's been playing this entire year).

[Jaqua92]

Brown has been better than VVVVVVV

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[ballup]

They're pretty close actually. Kemba has made four all star games, two starting. Lowry has made six, but he's also four years older and has never started. Each have one 3rd team all-NBA. Kemba is better offensively and Lowry is better defensively.

Kemba's playoff stats are better but he was on a crap team most of his career and has only played in 17 playoff games to date. Lowry was an important player on a title run last year but still only averaged 15/4.9/6.6 on .576 TS, which is good but not great. He also has a deserved reputation as a choker in big playoff games/series.

Hard to definitively say one guy is better than the other.

Kemba is the better scorer as he can create his shot in more areas. Lowry has been the better playmaker because Kemba's passing has only been okay, but never a real asset compared to the average point guard. Lowry was a better finisher at the rim. If I gave a arbitrary videogame rating for the peaks of both, Kemba would be an 81-83 while Lowry would be 84-85.

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Gotta disagree. I can't find a link to back it up but per the broadcast last night Kemba lead the entire league in off the dribble three pointers made this year. He made 38% of his threes on 8.4 attempts per game this year compared to 35% on 8.0 attempts per game for Lowry. He's also on a team with an equal opportunity offense and number of other good distributors like Hayward. His assist numbers don't pop but that's more of a function of team and scheme than a knock on Kemba.

I was talking about peaks. Kemba and Lowry right now are within the same tier. However, peak Lowry was a couple of years back. Lowry was averaging 40% on 3 pointers over 3 seasons. He was no slouch.

As for playmaking, it's not just the numbers where Kemba is behind. Kemba is the 3rd best passer on the Celtics behind Smart and Hayward. His speed allows him to be a playmaker, but the passing isn't there to match for kick outs. Meanwhile, Lowry has a strong undrstanding of how to control the offense and is solid in drick and kicks. He's not elite at it, but very good despite not being one of the speed demons of the league. I don't think we can excuse Kemba for being in a ball sharing system when Lowry has been playing in a ball movement system for 3 seasons. He has had to play with other playmakers like DeRozan, FVV, Gasol, and Siakam.

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[bisme37]

Regarding the actual series we're currently playing in real life, the question is how many Celtics do we rank before the first Raptor cracks the rankings?

Tatum
Kemba
Brown
Smart

And then I guess you can put some Raptor in the next tier with Theis and Williams.

[Bastet]

Tatum
Brown/Kemba
Siakam/Hayward/Lowry/Smart
Van Vleet/Ibaka/Powell/OG

[Curmudgeon]

Kemba hasn't played particularly well on offense in this series, but his defense has been good. Theis and TimeLord have outplayed Gasol and Ibaka and its not even close. The Toronto bigs and their vaunted bench wings have done nothing. As for Lowry, he's the engine that makes things go for the Raptors at both ends. Numbers don't tell the story. He can play for me anytime.

[macNcheese3]

Kemba hasn't played particularly well on offense in this series, but his defense has been good. Theis and TimeLord have outplayed Gasol and Ibaka and its not even close. The Toronto bigs and their vaunted bench wings have done nothing. As for Lowry, he's the engine that makes things go for the Raptors at both ends. Numbers don't tell the story. He can play for me anytime.

I love Gasol - but he really just isn't a scorer anymore. His defence hasn't been great either over these past 2 games. Hopeful Ibaka and Gasol can get things going on.

[SF_Warriors]

Since Kawhi left, most nba fans were wondering where TOR was going to get baskets late in games. Last night showed that those concerns were being justified. Siakam, Lowry, FVV are just not great options in the clutch.

The Celts have the two best offensive players this series in Tatum and Walker, and it can be argued Brown is at least in the same tier as siakam and lowry offensively as well. The series is still not over. Lack of a good closer aside, I can see the raps coming back in this series, but kawhi won't be there to bail them out this year. They will have to find it from somewhere else.

[shi-woo]

Looking back at this thread I still can't believe how underrated Smart is. Recency bias aside, no love for an All-Defense player who gets teammates involved, is a decent 3pnt shooter, undisputed team leader, and clutch AF.

He's literally everything Raptor fans say Lowry is, except he's a better defender, and isn't as goo taking it to the rim.

1. Tatum
2. Kemba
3. Lowry
4. Brown
5. Siakim
6. Smart
7. FVV
8. OG
9. Theis
10. Ibaka

People way to high on FVV, and not enough love for Jaylen Brown.

Theis better than Ibaka?

They are similar players, I wouldn't say either is really better than the other at this point in their careers. I like Ibaka a lot, he's the better 3pnt shooter, but Theis is the better team defender at the moment. Really depends on what you prefer. Your team needs scoring, mine needs defense. Both do a little of everything.

Theis is low key underrated, he clearly is an impact player. He's just as good in his role as Ibaka is in him. The reason why I put Theis above Serge is because the Celtics don't need to rely on him nearly as much as the Raptors do Ibaka. Theis fits his role better