Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[E-Balla]

Maybe, just maybe players today shoot a ton of threes and therefore reach higher scores.

Sure, but he didnt average nearly a triple double on nearly 60% fg. His stats were cute.

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The average team in 1998 scored 95.6 ppg. The average team in 2020 scores 111.8 ppg. There were 230 combined ppg in the Finals in 2020 vs 168 combined ppg in the 1998 Finals. It's not MJ's fault teams don't play defense anymore.

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That's not the reason. It has a lot more to do with rule changes. There's 3 times in league history that the league average ORTG has jumped by 2 in a single season. One is when they introduced the 3 point line in 1980. One is when they got rid of the handcheck in 2005. The last is the freedom of movement rules in 2019. Also the new delay of game rules (think of how often you see someone make a basket and catch the ball to slow down the opposing offense) implemented in 2016 saw the average pace of NBA games skyrocket.

[ReddoverKobe]

Its a toss up between Jordan, Kareem and Lebron now for goat.

Side note, Jordan is the most coddled superstar ever when it comes to media. Hes babe ruth and people dont actually discuss Jordan, they talk about the myth of Jordan. It's really strange to see. Meanwhile Lebron had to deal with social media and I think you can argue no player has ever been this picked apart. Hes like in full Obama wearing a tan suit, eating spicy mustard zone but all the time.

[ash_k]

Its a toss up between Jordan, Kareem and Lebron now for goat.

Side note, Jordan is the most coddled superstar ever when it comes to media. Hes babe ruth and people dont actually discuss Jordan, they talk about the myth of Jordan. It's really strange to see. Meanwhile Lebron had to deal with social media and I think you can argue no player has ever been this picked apart. Hes like in full Obama wearing a tan suit, eating spicy mustard zone but all the time.

Didnt you watch the "last dance" and media implying that his gambling addiction caused his father getting killed?!

[A_Biased_Fan]

Its a toss up between Jordan, Kareem and Lebron now for goat.

Side note, Jordan is the most coddled superstar ever when it comes to media. Hes babe ruth and people dont actually discuss Jordan, they talk about the myth of Jordan. It's really strange to see. Meanwhile Lebron had to deal with social media and I think you can argue no player has ever been this picked apart. Hes like in full Obama wearing a tan suit, eating spicy mustard zone but all the time.

Didnt you watch the "last dance" and media implying that his gambling addiction caused his father getting killed?!

That wasn't even close to a consensus media opinion. If that happened today, social media would be running wild with it.

[Jagic Mohnson]

I think Bron and Jordan are 1a and 1b just like Magic and Bird are so similar that its hard to say which one was better.

[ReddoverKobe]

Lebron fans stay wanting to give participation trophies to Lebron like all these Finals appearances mean something. All I see is 4 rings in how many seasons? Jordan achieved 6 rings in less time.

All Lebron has is his longevity, which is admirable and all. And the participation trophies of getting to the Finals. Because his fans want to count them.

Again, Lebron would be 6-0 against those teams as well. The 2nd three peat by jordan is against trash tier teams with no bench. Here let me just link that utah and seattle rosters by mpg in the finals. Those are 2 1/2 and 3 man teams. Lebron finally got lucky with a Miami team that got hurt, otherwise he is playing all time teams.

96 97 98

1. Payton Malone Malone
2. Kemp Russell Hornacek
3. Schempf Stockton Stockton
4. Hawkins Hornacek Russell
5.Perkins Ostertag Anderson
6. Askew Anderson Eisley
7.McMillian Foster Morris
8. Brickowski Morris Carr

[A_Biased_Fan]

The average team in 1998 scored 95.6 ppg. The average team in 2020 scores 111.8 ppg. There were 230 combined ppg in the Finals in 2020 vs 168 combined ppg in the 1998 Finals. It's not MJ's fault teams don't play defense anymore.

Ever heard of the 3 point shot? The 98 Bulls shot 11.7 3 pointers per game at 32% starting two offensively inept players in Rodman and Longley. Defenses were actually trash in the 90s compared to today. Ask your self this question? where would a team like that rank against the defenses of today...They'd be in the lottery.

If you think defenses were trash back then compared to now when defenses are the worst they've ever been IDK what to tell you. If they let players get away with all the offensive fouls they do now back then I'd be different.

Also in the modern league Chicago would kill. Kerr-Harper-MJ-Scottie-Rodman would be a deadly lineup on both ends.

The reason defenses get thrashed nowadays is because there is more offensive talent in the league than ever before. More great shooters, ball handlers, athletes, etc than ever. Elite defense can't shut down elite offense. Sometimes the best a defense can do is contest and pray the shot misses.

[ash_k]

I don't have a problem with people still feeling MJ is the goat and James is 2. I also don't have a problem with people feeling Bron is the goat. I tend to side with the latter, but to each his own!

can't just pretend that he was not 1-8 in his last 9 Finals game prior to this season.
Let the LeBroners tell you that it was a superteam that he lost against, but that same "superteam" that would have gotten eliminated by Houston had it not been for CP3's injury down 2-3. not exactly unbeatable.
Can't just pretend that he did not just lose two games against a team starting Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, Crowder while playing with an all-time great talent in AD. (and and those are the criteria of a GOAT for some?!?!?okay)

[A_Biased_Fan]

Lebron fans stay wanting to give participation trophies to Lebron like all these Finals appearances mean something. All I see is 4 rings in how many seasons? Jordan achieved 6 rings in less time.

All Lebron has is his longevity, which is admirable and all. And the participation trophies of getting to the Finals. Because his fans want to count them.

Again, Lebron would be 6-0 against those teams as well. The 2nd three peat by jordan is against trash tier teams with no bench. Here let me just link that utah and seattle rosters by mpg in the finals. Those are 2 1/2 and 3 man teams. Lebron finally got lucky with a Miami team that got hurt, otherwise he is playing all time teams.

96 97 98

1. Payton Malone Malone
2. Kemp Russell Hornacek
3. Schempf Stockton Stockton
4. Hawkins Hornacek Russell
5.Perkins Ostertag Anderson
6. Askew Anderson Eisley
7.McMillian Foster Morris
8. Brickowski Morris Carr

And even the team he got 'lucky' against, in the Heat, had more bodies to throw at Lebron (Butler, Iggy, Crowder) than the Jazz would have. Those dudes would have been roasted by bron.

[mademan]

Imagine thinking Jimmy Butler hurt his legacy by tearing through the East and losing to a much better team in the finals. Thats the logic of some people in this thread

[E-Balla]

Ever heard of the 3 point shot? The 98 Bulls shot 11.7 3 pointers per game at 32% starting two offensively inept players in Rodman and Longley. Defenses were actually trash in the 90s compared to today. Ask your self this question? where would a team like that rank against the defenses of today...They'd be in the lottery.

If you think defenses were trash back then compared to now when defenses are the worst they've ever been IDK what to tell you. If they let players get away with all the offensive fouls they do now back then I'd be different.

Also in the modern league Chicago would kill. Kerr-Harper-MJ-Scottie-Rodman would be a deadly lineup on both ends.

The reason defenses get thrashed nowadays is because there is more offensive talent in the league than ever before. More great shooters, ball handlers, athletes, etc than ever. Elite defense can't shut down elite offense. Sometimes the best a defense can do is contest and pray the shot misses.

There's not more offensive talent than ever lol. The league allows offenses to foul more and they give defenses a tighter whistle at the same time. There's no more offensive talent than there was 2 years ago and the league wide scoring was way lower 2 years ago. It's 100% rule changes crippling defenses.

Luka said it himself, it's easier to score here than in Europe at this point.

[510TWSS]

Kinda sucks to have these threads keep popping up the day LeBron wins his 4th chip.

IMO, MJ is still #1, LBJ has a chance if he wins a few more to potentially make it a 1a/1b type argument. In terms of my eye test, MJ still has the slight edge for being a cut above his peers.

Only other player now that I think has argument in top 3 is KAJ, but I would probably put LeBron over him at this point even though it feels kinda sacrilegious.

Congrats Bron. Now I hope the Dubz come back next year and bounce your asses out early

[Brofessor24]

LeBron is amazing, but he's still not even #2.

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, and Kobe are still ahead of LeBron at this point, from the full-on mainstream era.. respect to Bill Russell's era.

Even if LeBron gets 6, he still won't have the defensive establishment Jordan did with 2 DPOYs and the several all-defensive team enlistings. Also Jordan's East compared to LeBron's east is no comparison historically. Jordan never lost in the Finals.

Jordan and Kareem are tops from a complete impact and accomplishment perspective. Going to be tough to meet or succeed either of them.. which has still yet to be done.

LeBron still has a respectable amount of accomplishments to obtain before he's credibly put over Jordan and Kareem from a comparison -- aka win two more titles. Just that simple until then.

Lakers can build a dynasty if they stay focused and don't let egos and external factors get in the way.

I disagree with your opinion.

[Brofessor24]

Ever heard of the 3 point shot? The 98 Bulls shot 11.7 3 pointers per game at 32% starting two offensively inept players in Rodman and Longley. Defenses were actually trash in the 90s compared to today. Ask your self this question? where would a team like that rank against the defenses of today...They'd be in the lottery.

If you think defenses were trash back then compared to now when defenses are the worst they've ever been IDK what to tell you. If they let players get away with all the offensive fouls they do now back then I'd be different.

Also in the modern league Chicago would kill. Kerr-Harper-MJ-Scottie-Rodman would be a deadly lineup on both ends.

The reason defenses get thrashed nowadays is because there is more offensive talent in the league than ever before. More great shooters, ball handlers, athletes, etc than ever. Elite defense can't shut down elite offense. Sometimes the best a defense can do is contest and pray the shot misses.

Spot on.

[Caped Crusader]

LeBron will be GOAT by the time he retires...

3 titles with 3 different teams, went to finals 9 straight years, took a scrub team to finals, etc.

Stats galore Will break KAJ's scoring record, etc

None of the things you said display any reason for him to be GOAT. Him winning a championship with three different teams is not some sort of achievement. It just shows he changes scenery whenever things are stale or when there's some challenges presented, but sure keep reaching.

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[C-Melo Man]

I got LeBron James at #3 on my NBA All-Time List behind Michael Jordan & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. If he wins another championship & Finals MVP, he'll move up to #2 All-Time. KAJ is still the All-Time NBA Scoring Leader who dominated in college & has accolades out the wazoo throughout his NBA career winning an NBA title as the man in Milwaukee & multiple titles with Magic Johnson & the Lakers.

[JonFromVA]

If Lebron 3 peated in Miami he might have a chance but Jordan did it twice that’s the difference regardless
How many players won 3 times in a row twice

Point being, not many if you have to post a picture of a relic.

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In a few years when fans are calling Jordan a relic, Russell will still have 11 rings and 8 in a row.

[Alize]

Lebron fans stay wanting to give participation trophies to Lebron like all these Finals appearances mean something. All I see is 4 rings in how many seasons? Jordan achieved 6 rings in less time.

All Lebron has is his longevity, which is admirable and all. And the participation trophies of getting to the Finals. Because his fans want to count them.

Again, Lebron would be 6-0 against those teams as well. The 2nd three peat by jordan is against trash tier teams with no bench. Here let me just link that utah and seattle rosters by mpg in the finals. Those are 2 1/2 and 3 man teams. Lebron finally got lucky with a Miami team that got hurt, otherwise he is playing all time teams.

96 97 98

1. Payton Malone Malone
2. Kemp Russell Hornacek
3. Schempf Stockton Stockton
4. Hawkins Hornacek Russell
5.Perkins Ostertag Anderson
6. Askew Anderson Eisley
7.McMillian Foster Morris
8. Brickowski Morris Carr

Thats trash.

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[VanWest82]

There seems to be this feeling among Lebron stans that had KD not signed with Warriors Lebron wins in 17 and 18, but the part everyone forgets is how much Cavs also benefitted from the cap spike. Without the knowledge that the cap was about to increase by 40% they wouldn't have been able to keep Tristan Thompson and JR and Shump and also add guys like Channing Frye and Korver. They'd have been stuck with a bunch of min players. Lebron has played with more good teammates than anyone in the history of the league, including Bill Russell.

[VanWest82]

Point being, not many if you have to post a picture of a relic.

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In a few years when fans are calling Jordan a relic, Russell will still have 11 rings and 8 in a row.

In an eight team league.