MJ's record is not 6-0, its 6-15

[DCasey91]

He was free of any high expectations and stress with Baseball.

I worked for a minor league team, in the same league and state he played in shortly after he played. I literally loaded the bus Michael Jordan bought for his team. I'm very familiar.

Baseball is extremely stressful, especially in the minor league. These guys are playing for their careers, and there's a reason the yips are far more common in baseball. Because it creates high stress environments. In the deep south the heat is terrible in the summer, so you feel exhausted even if you're not doing anything at all. It drains you completely. I worked in the clubhouse, I saw what these guys had to do. From what I've read Jordan was busting his ass, but even if he wasn't the players around him wouldn't have tolerated his loafing. Furthermore, I also played high school basketball around that time so I have a point of reference. No, it wasn't some kind of vacation, it was hard grueling work in the summer heat. I can't imagine why someone would think learning a new sport and competing at the professional level was some kind of vacation.

I would take an air conditioned gym and a basketball game over just being outside in the heat for a baseball game any day!

I use to root against Jordan because I was a Barkley fan but I can't remember any series, where Jordan was not the best player in a series.

As and Orlando Magic fan, I was not liking Jordan's Bulls at all. I wasn't and still am not a Jordan fan, but I didn't like him when he was playing for a reason. He made losing to him feel inevitable.

That part about Jordan being the best player in every series, that's very meaningful. Pippen was a great player, but at no point in his career, at no point in a series was there ever any confusion as to who the best player on the Bulls was. I'm pretty sure Jordan never finished third on the Bulls in scoring in a Finals...

Playing in AAA is no joke, Baseball by definition can be very stressful (Long slumps are a given) it’s the nature of the game, I play a sport similar to that it’s all mental, imagine going 2+ months feeling like you haven’t contributed much, can be very discouraging. Also being out in the field for 10 hours per game (2 weekends) sometimes hitting 100F or 35+ C it leaves you mentally exhausted.

Indoor >>>>> Outdoor. Outdoor can be sh*house sometimes.

They play for meal tickets/jobs/keeps. It’s actually highly impressive that MJ even though he wasn’t that good in AAA was still able to play and not embarrass himself and even showed true progression in time just before the start of the new season. Seen far worse, a sports star transferring over to a completely different sport (mechanics are polar opposites).

[G35]

Lebron's worst finals opposition is better than anyone Jordan saw. Imagine getting to see teams like... Drexler and who?, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley when you're playing on a glorified all star team with another HOF'er and a stacked surrounding cast.

Compared to the 73-9 Warriors, Pop's Spurs spearheaded by Tim Duncan, Dirk's Mavs and The Durant Warriors... Silly

Last year's Miami Heat are worse than anyone Jordan faced. They had a 2.59 SRS. The 2011 Mavs had a 4.41 SRS. Jordan beat better teams in the second round than those 2 teams.

If you look at total playoff runs based on SRS it goes like this. So Lebron has 2 of the easiest paths to NBA championships in the last 3 decades and one top 20 hardest. MJ has 4 top 20 hardest and 3rd hardest overall

1. 1995 Houston Rockets = 23.96
2. 2001 LA Lakers = 22.15
3. 1997 Chicago Bulls = 20.82



7. 2016 Cleveland Cavs = 18.38


10. 1993 Chicago Bulls = 17.77


14. 1996 Chicago Bulls = 16.5
15. 1998 Chicago Bulls - 16.31


22. 2012 Miami Heat = 13.69

25. 1992 Chicago Bulls = 12.01













34. 2013 Miami Heat = 8.16
35. 2020 LA Lakers = 7.43

Want to make sure everyone gets to see this.

It would be interesting to see who had the easiest paths to the finals. I mean we always have to hear how Lebron dragged that 2007 Cavaliers team to the finals. What you don't hear is this:

1st round - Wizards 41-41 record, SRS -0.80
2nd round - NJ Nets 41-41 record, SRS -1.00
3rd round - Pistons 53-29 record, SRS 3.69

Compare that to the Spurs 2007 playoff run:

1st round - Nuggets 45-37 record, SRS 1.69
2nd round - Suns 61-21 record, SRS 7.28
3rd round - Jazz 51-31 record, SRS 3.06


Lebron has had nothing but easy runs in the playoffs, starting off with his 2007 finals appearance. This shows by his Finals record. This is what you should really compare between Jordan and Lebron:

Jordan's record in the Finals
1991 4-1 vs Lakers
1992 4-2 vs Blazers
1993 4-2 vs Suns
1996 4-2 vs Sonics
1997 4-2 vs Jazz
1998 4-2 vs Jazz

24-11 for a .685 winning percentage

Lebron's record in the finals
2007 0-4 vs Spurs
2011 2-4 vs Mavericks
2012 4-1 vs Thunder
2013 4-3 vs Spurs
2014 1-4 vs Spurs
2015 2-4 vs Warriors
2016 4-3 vs Warriors
2017 1-4 vs Warriors
2018 0-4 vs Warriors
2020 4-2 vs Heat

22-33 for a .400 losing percentage

[so_bored]

Last year's Miami Heat are worse than anyone Jordan faced. They had a 2.59 SRS. The 2011 Mavs had a 4.41 SRS. Jordan beat better teams in the second round than those 2 teams.

If you look at total playoff runs based on SRS it goes like this. So Lebron has 2 of the easiest paths to NBA championships in the last 3 decades and one top 20 hardest. MJ has 4 top 20 hardest and 3rd hardest overall

1. 1995 Houston Rockets = 23.96
2. 2001 LA Lakers = 22.15
3. 1997 Chicago Bulls = 20.82



7. 2016 Cleveland Cavs = 18.38


10. 1993 Chicago Bulls = 17.77


14. 1996 Chicago Bulls = 16.5
15. 1998 Chicago Bulls - 16.31


22. 2012 Miami Heat = 13.69

25. 1992 Chicago Bulls = 12.01













34. 2013 Miami Heat = 8.16
35. 2020 LA Lakers = 7.43

Want to make sure everyone gets to see this.

It would be interesting to see who had the easiest paths to the finals. I mean we always have to hear how Lebron dragged that 2007 Cavaliers team to the finals. What you don't hear is this:

1st round - Wizards 41-41 record, SRS -0.80
2nd round - NJ Nets 41-41 record, SRS -1.00
3rd round - Pistons 53-29 record, SRS 3.69

Compare that to the Spurs 2007 playoff run:

1st round - Nuggets 45-37 record, SRS 1.69
2nd round - Suns 61-21 record, SRS 7.28
3rd round - Jazz 51-31 record, SRS 3.06


Lebron has had nothing but easy runs in the playoffs, starting off with his 2007 finals appearance. This shows by his Finals record. This is what you should really compare between Jordan and Lebron:

Jordan's record in the Finals
1991 4-1 vs Lakers
1992 4-2 vs Blazers
1993 4-2 vs Suns
1996 4-2 vs Sonics
1997 4-2 vs Jazz
1998 4-2 vs Jazz

24-11 for a .685 winning percentage

Lebron's record in the finals
2007 0-4 vs Spurs
2011 2-4 vs Mavericks
2012 4-1 vs Thunder
2013 4-3 vs Spurs
2014 1-4 vs Spurs
2015 2-4 vs Warriors
2016 4-3 vs Warriors
2017 1-4 vs Warriors
2018 0-4 vs Warriors
2020 4-2 vs Heat

22-33 for a .400 losing percentage

This is exactly the point. But lebron fans will tell you, "but he overcame a 3-1 deficit in the Finals! GOAT!" Like being down 3-1 is even a proud thing. Jordan was never down 3-1 in any of his championship runs. That is the proof of real domination.

[BK_2020]

MJ played in a weak era where horrible teams like the Suns (2nd best player was a C list star KJ) made the finals. If Lebron played in the 90s he would've never left the Cavs and won 10+ rings with Booby Gibson or something as his 2nd option.

[nfmos]

MJ played in a weak era where horrible teams like the Suns (2nd best player was a C list star KJ) made the finals. If Lebron played in the 90s he would've never left the Cavs and won 10+ rings with Booby Gibson or something as his 2nd option.

Oh yes, the “wahhh other teams too good!” argument.

You’re measured to your direct peers, Jordan was more dominant over his than lebron was over his, point blank. And if there were 1-16 seeding in the playoffs lebron would have made half the finals he made at best.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Effigy]

First of all, it wouldn't be 6-15, it would be 6-9. Seems like a dumb way to look at it, but he still compares very favorably to just about anyone else. Lebron for instance would be 5-13.

I never understood how losing in the Finals is way worse than losing in the 1st, 2nd round or the Conference Finals. Especially in team sports.

Often the same thing with clutch stats. A player can go 5 for 20 in the first 47 minutes and 59 seconds, hits a winning shot in the last second, and 'Man, he's so clutch, what a performance!'. No, they needed a lucky shot, a hail marry because he had missed 15 shots prior.

Focusing on just one particular stat which is in favor of a particular player, while blatantly ignoring stats that would be in favor of the other player, is such a hater thing to do.

Because if you're in the Finals you are good enough to win a championship. If you're the 7th seed, your team probably isn't good enough to win a title. Obviously if you never get to the finals you aren't a top 10 player, but it's fine to allow for a few years of development. Most great players come to bad teams and it takes time to build and learn how to win. That was Jordan's path. He made his team better immediately and they went to the playoffs every year, but he had to learn how to win and had to get a better supporting cast. Once he had that he just won baby, no matter how injured his Bulls teams were, from 1991 to 1998, every year he played a full season he won the title. And that is damn impressive, and something no other modern player can say.

[BK_2020]

from 1991 to 1998, every year he played a full season he won the title. And that is damn impressive, and something no other modern player can say.

And not only that, but the one season he took off for mental health reasons, his team went 55-27.

[Effigy]

from 1991 to 1998, every year he played a full season he won the title. And that is damn impressive, and something no other modern player can say.

And not only that, but the one season he took off for mental health reasons, his team went 55-27.

And lost in the 2nd round. What was their record the next year before he came back?

[OdomFan]

from 1991 to 1998, every year he played a full season he won the title. And that is damn impressive, and something no other modern player can say.

And not only that, but the one season he took off for mental health reasons, his team went 55-27.

Are you really surprised that a team with coach Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen could win 55 games? It's the same excuses in all of these threads from the Anti Jordan side and never makes any sense. 55 games is a nice record but doesn't cancel out the impact that Jordan made for the team in previous seasons. The Bulls had a good season but when Jordan came back they got their difference maker again and went on to win 3 more championships.

[The Rebel]

MJ played in a weak era where horrible teams like the Suns (2nd best player was a C list star KJ) made the finals. If Lebron played in the 90s he would've never left the Cavs and won 10+ rings with Booby Gibson or something as his 2nd option.

Lmao, you say that as if LeBron didn't lose 2 finals where 1 team's best player was 37 years old and lost to another team who's best player was seen as arguably the 4th best play er on the court and a 37 year old PG That scored 12.6 PPG for his career. Even stacking his own roster how many MVP quality players did Lebron's team beat in a series while they were in their prime?

[mixerball]

lol...OP did you want to prove that his percentage is worse than lebron? because i got news.

[KrAzY3]

And not only that, but the one season he took off for mental health reasons, his team went 55-27.

This is how you can tell someone wasn't alive when Jordan was playing.

That didn't happen. This reminds me of the time someone was bragging about how good the Magic (they really weren't but he was trying to make a point) were when they had Jameer Nelson and beat LeBron's 66 Cavs win team. Only Jameer was injured and hadn't played for quite some time...

[scrabbarista]

from 1991 to 1998, every year he played a full season he won the title. And that is damn impressive, and something no other modern player can say.

And not only that, but the one season he took off for mental health reasons, his team went 55-27.

I've posted this before, so apologies to anyone who's already read it. There are always going to be others who aren't familiar with this context.

In regards to the myth that the 1994 Bulls were "almost as good" without Jordan (e.g., they won two fewer games than the previous season, and "almost beat the Knicks"), this - quoted from another poster - will be helpful information:

"1. The 92-93 bulls were the epitome of a team coasting in the regular season preparing for a long playoff run. Recent iterations of the Warriors are another example of this. The previous 2 seasons they won 61 and 67 games and were by far number 1 in SRS. 92-93 Bulls were much better than a 57 win team and were clearly the best team in the league that year, sweeping the Cavs who finished ahead of them in SRS, and beating the number 1 seed Knicks in 6 and the Suns (also ahead of the Bulls) in 6.

2. People think the Bulls just replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and that’s it, but that’s a false narrative. They added Pete Myers, Steve Kerr (one of the best shooters in the league) and Toni Kukoc, the best player in Europe. So they had the entire championship team last year minus Jordan but adding Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, and kept Phil Jackson as coach. Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Kerr, Armstrong, Cartwright, Longley, Wennington etc.

3. The 93-94 bulls way overachieved and were not nearly as good as their record. Their expected win loss was 50-32, 5 wins less than the 55 they actually won. Their SRS plummeted to 11th. In fact, there were 4 teams who won less games than the Bulls yet finished ahead in SRS and several teams like the Knicks, Spurs and Hawks who only won a couple more games yet finished far ahead in SRS. The Bulls' offense also went from top 2 to bottom half of the league without Jordan.

4. In the First Round, they beat a Cavs without Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance, or Hot Rod Williams. If healthy, that Cavs team could have beaten the Bulls. They lost to the Knicks in the playoffs without MJ and were undefeated against the Knicks with MJ. Derek Harper was also ejected in game 3 and missed games 4 and 5. The Knicks were 3-1 against the Bulls in that series when Derek Harper played fully. The Knicks were clearly a better team.

5. The Bulls went from 3-peat champions to 2nd Round exit without Jordan, despite keeping every major player from the previous year, and adding Myers, Kerr, and Kukoc, and keeping Phil Jackson at coach."

Credit for this info goes to RGMer 876Stephen.

[dakomish23]

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[BK_2020]

He was free of any high expectations and stress with Baseball.

I worked for a minor league team, in the same league and state he played in shortly after he played. I literally loaded the bus Michael Jordan bought for his team. I'm very familiar.

Baseball is extremely stressful, especially in the minor league. These guys are playing for their careers, and there's a reason the yips are far more common in baseball. Because it creates high stress environments. In the deep south the heat is terrible in the summer, so you feel exhausted even if you're not doing anything at all. It drains you completely. I worked in the clubhouse, I saw what these guys had to do. From what I've read Jordan was busting his ass, but even if he wasn't the players around him wouldn't have tolerated his loafing. Furthermore, I also played high school basketball around that time so I have a point of reference. No, it wasn't some kind of vacation, it was hard grueling work in the summer heat. I can't imagine why someone would think learning a new sport and competing at the professional level was some kind of vacation.

I would take an air conditioned gym and a basketball game over just being outside in the heat for a baseball game any day!

I use to root against Jordan because I was a Barkley fan but I can't remember any series, where Jordan was not the best player in a series.

As and Orlando Magic fan, I was not liking Jordan's Bulls at all. I wasn't and still am not a Jordan fan, but I didn't like him when he was playing for a reason. He made losing to him feel inevitable.

That part about Jordan being the best player in every series, that's very meaningful. Pippen was a great player, but at no point in his career, at no point in a series was there ever any confusion as to who the best player on the Bulls was. I'm pretty sure Jordan never finished third on the Bulls in scoring in a Finals...

Playing in AAA is no joke, Baseball by definition can be very stressful (Long slumps are a given) it’s the nature of the game, I play a sport similar to that it’s all mental, imagine going 2+ months feeling like you haven’t contributed much, can be very discouraging. Also being out in the field for 10 hours per game (2 weekends) sometimes hitting 100F or 35+ C it leaves you mentally exhausted.

Indoor >>>>> Outdoor. Outdoor can be sh*house sometimes.

They play for meal tickets/jobs/keeps. It’s actually highly impressive that MJ even though he wasn’t that good in AAA was still able to play and not embarrass himself and even showed true progression in time just before the start of the new season. Seen far worse, a sports star transferring over to a completely different sport (mechanics are polar opposites).

Jordan never made AAA.

[SeniorWalker]

I've never understood why people bring up LeBron's finals record in these tired comparisons.

LeBron often faced much weaker teams before the finals and then got smacked by strong teams when he got there. Which would imply that his teams often didn't really belong in the finals, he was just on a weaker path. Sometimes his teams did belong, and he won in those years.

Why this is still talked about at all is beyond me. It does not help his argument against MJ, to know that he faced generally weaker competition and was less successful in general.