2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2)

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Which rookie impresses you the most?

Cade Cunningham
24
8%
Jalen Green
9
3%
Evan Mobley
76
26%
Scottie Barnes
104
36%
Jalen Suggs
4
1%
Josh Giddey
17
6%
Franz Wagner
42
15%
Chris Duarte
1
0%
Davion Mitchell
3
1%
Other
9
3%
 
Total votes: 289

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#181 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 3, 2021 7:03 pm

basketballRob wrote:Suggs 36th in the league on defense, according to his Raptor score. If he gets his offense straight he could eventually be a top 20 player.

Looks like Franz is leading all rookies in overall score.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

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Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#182 » by basketballRob » Wed Nov 3, 2021 7:57 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Suggs 36th in the league on defense, according to his Raptor score. If he gets his offense straight he could eventually be a top 20 player.

Looks like Franz is leading all rookies in overall score.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

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Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.
I'm pretty sure there is a minute restriction.

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#183 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 3, 2021 8:30 pm

basketballRob wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Suggs 36th in the league on defense, according to his Raptor score. If he gets his offense straight he could eventually be a top 20 player.

Looks like Franz is leading all rookies in overall score.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.
I'm pretty sure there is a minute restriction.


Nah, he was ranked. I imagine WAR includes minutes played since the more minutes a player can play the more valuable he actually is.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#184 » by Vampirate » Wed Nov 3, 2021 9:21 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Suggs 36th in the league on defense, according to his Raptor score. If he gets his offense straight he could eventually be a top 20 player.

Looks like Franz is leading all rookies in overall score.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.


Wagner has been impressive but are we to believe his 50% FG and especially his 46% 3 point shooting are sustainable? Inversely Wagner shooting 66% from the free throw line can definitely improve.

Mobley on the other hand is not really lighting it up offensively, his 3 point shooting could easily go up and while his FT shooting is good, it's not like he's shooting 90% at the stripe.

Mobley can get buckets at this stage because a point guard can just throw it up at the hoop and he catches and dunks it. He can shoot pretty much over anyone but his handle and shooting are not his strong suits this season imo (maybe i'm wrong, just from the highlights i've seen). Mobley is ok-good on offense.

Franz doesn't really provide rebounding value.

Mobley is a ok-good rebounder, but nothing special so far.


Defensively is where Mobley shatters Wagner (and pretty much all rookies) and his overall defense alone might win him ROTY.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#185 » by basketballRob » Wed Nov 3, 2021 9:26 pm

Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Suggs 36th in the league on defense, according to his Raptor score. If he gets his offense straight he could eventually be a top 20 player.

Looks like Franz is leading all rookies in overall score.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.


Wagner has been impressive but are we to believe his 50% FG and especially his 46% 3 point shooting are sustainable? Inversely Wagner shooting 66% from the free throw line can definitely improve.

Mobley on the other hand is not really lighting it up offensively, his 3 point shooting could easily go up and while his FT shooting is good, it's not like he's shooting 90% at the stripe.

Mobley can get buckets at this stage because a point guard can just throw it up at the hoop and he catches and dunks it. He can shoot pretty much over anyone but his handle and shooting are not his strong suits this season imo (maybe i'm wrong, just from the highlights i've seen). Mobley is ok-good on offense.

Franz doesn't really provide rebounding value.

Mobley is a ok-good rebounder, but nothing special so far.


Defensively is where Mobley shatters Wagner (and pretty much all rookies) and his overall defense alone might win him ROTY.
Suggs is pretty close to Mobley on defense based on his RAPTOR score.

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#186 » by Vampirate » Wed Nov 3, 2021 9:52 pm

Madhouse wrote:I never understood why Cade was seen as the consensus #1 prospect. His and Barnes advanced stats in college were identical despite him having an excellent jumpshot and experience playing his position. If his shot is **** up, he really might be a major bust. If he gets it back, he will be good. He needs to play SG though.


It's much too early to tell about any of these rookies until they have 2 seasons under their belt honestly.

As for Cade, it's mainly the clutch factor, the guy had a reputation of taking and hitting clutch shots in college even when he was double teamed I believe.

So in essence he was going to be like Kyrie in terms of the clutch factor but in a 6"8 frame and without the headaches and drama that comes along with having Kyrie on your team. Also a capable defender too.

Time will tell.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#187 » by SOUL » Wed Nov 3, 2021 9:54 pm

basketballRob wrote:Suggs is pretty close to Mobley on defense based on his RAPTOR score.


Bigs will always be more valuable defenders than guards imo
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#188 » by CptCrunch » Wed Nov 3, 2021 9:56 pm

basketballRob wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.


Wagner has been impressive but are we to believe his 50% FG and especially his 46% 3 point shooting are sustainable? Inversely Wagner shooting 66% from the free throw line can definitely improve.

Mobley on the other hand is not really lighting it up offensively, his 3 point shooting could easily go up and while his FT shooting is good, it's not like he's shooting 90% at the stripe.

Mobley can get buckets at this stage because a point guard can just throw it up at the hoop and he catches and dunks it. He can shoot pretty much over anyone but his handle and shooting are not his strong suits this season imo (maybe i'm wrong, just from the highlights i've seen). Mobley is ok-good on offense.

Franz doesn't really provide rebounding value.

Mobley is a ok-good rebounder, but nothing special so far.


Defensively is where Mobley shatters Wagner (and pretty much all rookies) and his overall defense alone might win him ROTY.
Suggs is pretty close to Mobley on defense based on his RAPTOR score.

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Raptor is box-score stat and largely useless for defense. It is only useful potentially for comparing players across the same position.

PF/C vs PG/SF DRaptor comparisons are meaningless.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#189 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 3, 2021 10:10 pm

Vampirate wrote:
Madhouse wrote:I never understood why Cade was seen as the consensus #1 prospect. His and Barnes advanced stats in college were identical despite him having an excellent jumpshot and experience playing his position. If his shot is **** up, he really might be a major bust. If he gets it back, he will be good. He needs to play SG though.


It's much too early to tell about any of these rookies until they have 2 seasons under their belt honestly.

As for Cade, it's mainly the clutch factor, the guy had a reputation of taking and hitting clutch shots in college even when he was double teamed I believe.

So in essence he was going to be like Kyrie in terms of the clutch factor but in a 6"8 frame and without the headaches and drama that comes along with having Kyrie on your team. Also a capable defender too.

Time will tell.


Nobody but Kyrie has Kyrie's handles. Cade apparently shrunk 2" since college, his first step has been seriously doubted, and for those who felt he was meant to become a PG (ala Grant Hill) his assists/turnovers do not agree.

Otoh, in College he showed the ability to shoot, defend, demonstrated potential as a passer, and was really good at finding a way to get his shot off even without that killer first step.

His playmaking not being all there at the College level will presumably take some time at the pro-level, so the main thing to watch is how his shooting, his defense, and his ability to create a shot for himself convey to the next level.

But what to do with Hayes?

If Cade's playmaking compliments Hayes', maybe they can co-exist. If Cade needs to be paired with a playmaker to get the most out of him, maybe Detroit needs to make a move? For a backup PG at least. And if Cade shows any hint he's a better playmaker than Hayes (or whatever they can get in trade), maybe Hayes will need to step aside and come off the bench.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#190 » by Vampirate » Wed Nov 3, 2021 10:19 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
Madhouse wrote:I never understood why Cade was seen as the consensus #1 prospect. His and Barnes advanced stats in college were identical despite him having an excellent jumpshot and experience playing his position. If his shot is **** up, he really might be a major bust. If he gets it back, he will be good. He needs to play SG though.


It's much too early to tell about any of these rookies until they have 2 seasons under their belt honestly.

As for Cade, it's mainly the clutch factor, the guy had a reputation of taking and hitting clutch shots in college even when he was double teamed I believe.

So in essence he was going to be like Kyrie in terms of the clutch factor but in a 6"8 frame and without the headaches and drama that comes along with having Kyrie on your team. Also a capable defender too.

Time will tell.


Nobody but Kyrie has Kyrie's handles. Cade apparently shrunk 2" since college, his first step has been seriously doubted, and for those who felt he was meant to become a PG (ala Grant Hill) his assists/turnovers do not agree.

Otoh, in College he showed the ability to shoot, defend, demonstrated potential as a passer, and was really good at finding a way to get his shot off even without that killer first step.

His playmaking not being all there at the College level will presumably take some time at the pro-level, so the main thing to watch is how his shooting, his defense, and his ability to create a shot for himself convey to the next level.

But what to do with Hayes?

If Cade's playmaking compliments Hayes', maybe they can co-exist. If Cade needs to be paired with a playmaker to get the most out of him, maybe Detroit needs to make a move? For a backup PG at least. And if Cade shows any hint he's a better playmaker than Hayes (or whatever they can get in trade), maybe Hayes will need to step aside and come off the bench.


I'm not talking handles here, i'm strictly talking about taking the big shot in tough moments to get his team the win, the 'clutch factor' and the fact he was 'said' to be 6"8.

That's the real reason why he was drafted. The fact that he wasn't 6"8 is pretty much looking in the rear view mirror, not what was thought about him at the draft.

Keep in mind the question was asked 'why was he taken #1 at the time'.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#191 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 3, 2021 10:41 pm

Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
It's much too early to tell about any of these rookies until they have 2 seasons under their belt honestly.

As for Cade, it's mainly the clutch factor, the guy had a reputation of taking and hitting clutch shots in college even when he was double teamed I believe.

So in essence he was going to be like Kyrie in terms of the clutch factor but in a 6"8 frame and without the headaches and drama that comes along with having Kyrie on your team. Also a capable defender too.

Time will tell.


Nobody but Kyrie has Kyrie's handles. Cade apparently shrunk 2" since college, his first step has been seriously doubted, and for those who felt he was meant to become a PG (ala Grant Hill) his assists/turnovers do not agree.

Otoh, in College he showed the ability to shoot, defend, demonstrated potential as a passer, and was really good at finding a way to get his shot off even without that killer first step.

His playmaking not being all there at the College level will presumably take some time at the pro-level, so the main thing to watch is how his shooting, his defense, and his ability to create a shot for himself convey to the next level.

But what to do with Hayes?

If Cade's playmaking compliments Hayes', maybe they can co-exist. If Cade needs to be paired with a playmaker to get the most out of him, maybe Detroit needs to make a move? For a backup PG at least. And if Cade shows any hint he's a better playmaker than Hayes (or whatever they can get in trade), maybe Hayes will need to step aside and come off the bench.


I'm not talking handles here, i'm strictly talking about taking the big shot in tough moments to get his team the win, the 'clutch factor' and the fact he was 'said' to be 6"8.

That's the real reason why he was drafted. The fact that he wasn't 6"8 is pretty much looking in the rear view mirror, not what was thought about him at the draft.

Keep in mind the question was asked 'why was he taken #1 at the time'.


The doubts about Cade's game started before he was drafted. It had been suggested he wasn't 6'8", people were questioning his first step ... but basically nobody wants to be the team that passed on the next Doncic and of course the prevalent thought that big men aren't all that valuable.

If the Cavs had the #1, I would have taken him there because the Cavs need a SF, Cade wouldn't have to be the PG, and I'm particularly fond of players who have actually demonstrated the ability to shoot and defend rather than wishing they develop those skills.

Oh, and scoring 20ppg in College as a freshman is no joke.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#192 » by Vampirate » Wed Nov 3, 2021 11:03 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Nobody but Kyrie has Kyrie's handles. Cade apparently shrunk 2" since college, his first step has been seriously doubted, and for those who felt he was meant to become a PG (ala Grant Hill) his assists/turnovers do not agree.

Otoh, in College he showed the ability to shoot, defend, demonstrated potential as a passer, and was really good at finding a way to get his shot off even without that killer first step.

His playmaking not being all there at the College level will presumably take some time at the pro-level, so the main thing to watch is how his shooting, his defense, and his ability to create a shot for himself convey to the next level.

But what to do with Hayes?

If Cade's playmaking compliments Hayes', maybe they can co-exist. If Cade needs to be paired with a playmaker to get the most out of him, maybe Detroit needs to make a move? For a backup PG at least. And if Cade shows any hint he's a better playmaker than Hayes (or whatever they can get in trade), maybe Hayes will need to step aside and come off the bench.


I'm not talking handles here, i'm strictly talking about taking the big shot in tough moments to get his team the win, the 'clutch factor' and the fact he was 'said' to be 6"8.

That's the real reason why he was drafted. The fact that he wasn't 6"8 is pretty much looking in the rear view mirror, not what was thought about him at the draft.

Keep in mind the question was asked 'why was he taken #1 at the time'.


The doubts about Cade's game started before he was drafted. It had been suggested he wasn't 6'8", people were questioning his first step ... but basically nobody wants to be the team that passed on the next Doncic and of course the prevalent thought that big men aren't all that valuable.

If the Cavs had the #1, I would have taken him there because the Cavs need a SF, Cade wouldn't have to be the PG, and I'm particularly fond of players who have actually demonstrated the ability to shoot and defend rather than wishing they develop those skills.

Oh, and scoring 20ppg in College as a freshman is no joke.


'It's why you play the games'

Meaning let's see who walks the walk.

Also, I want to see how Barnes and Mobley go at each other, will be interesting.

Imo, I think the best offensive weapon overall thus far in the class (yes i'm very biased here and i'm not ashamed to admit it) is going up against the best defensive stopper overall in the class.

How will they handle each other on both ends of the floor.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#193 » by DCasey91 » Wed Nov 3, 2021 11:17 pm

basketballRob wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Wagner and Mobley are literally tied for 1st for rookies with a 0.8 WAR according to the page you linked.

If you want to look at offensive contribution because that generally decides ROY; then Franz is currently leading at +2.8 in offensive overall raptor, with Giddey right behind at 2.6, then Barnes 3rd at 1.4.

Honorable mention to Banton who leads in overall raptor, but ends up 7th in WAR presumably due to minutes.


Wagner has been impressive but are we to believe his 50% FG and especially his 46% 3 point shooting are sustainable? Inversely Wagner shooting 66% from the free throw line can definitely improve.

Mobley on the other hand is not really lighting it up offensively, his 3 point shooting could easily go up and while his FT shooting is good, it's not like he's shooting 90% at the stripe.

Mobley can get buckets at this stage because a point guard can just throw it up at the hoop and he catches and dunks it. He can shoot pretty much over anyone but his handle and shooting are not his strong suits this season imo (maybe i'm wrong, just from the highlights i've seen). Mobley is ok-good on offense.

Franz doesn't really provide rebounding value.

Mobley is a ok-good rebounder, but nothing special so far.


Defensively is where Mobley shatters Wagner (and pretty much all rookies) and his overall defense alone might win him ROTY.
Suggs is pretty close to Mobley on defense based on his RAPTOR score.

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Yes Suggs I’m hoping his shooting %’s get better via shot selection and more distribution. Cade, Suggs and Green fall into the same boat. Too many bad shots from all three.

But Mobley is a center, his positional defensive value trumps Suggs all ends up. Magic have Bamba and Carter that actually compliment each other very well (Bamba has been progressing nicely).

Whereas Mobley has Allen and a leaky backcourt and that’s it to cover an obscene amount of space which I’ve never seen from any rookie do (leads comp in contested shots).

Mobley could very much be a less exposed Gobert with much more offensive potential in the end. That’s a top 3 center in my book (top 2 due to Embiid’s durability).
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#194 » by Time for Change » Wed Nov 3, 2021 11:21 pm

I think the busting of Wiseman devalued Mobley. People saw what a mistake the Warriors made taking a high upside big over playmakers like LaMelo and Halliburton, and the poorer scouting teams got scared of Mobley.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#195 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Thu Nov 4, 2021 1:42 am

JB Bickerstaff is going to run Mobley into the ground. He is killing the kid slowly, but surely.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#196 » by turnaroundJ » Thu Nov 4, 2021 2:26 am

To be fair to Cade, under the old NBA listings he would have probably been listed at 6'7 with shoes on. Same as Penny and Clyde Drexler. Well, except with half the athleticism.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#197 » by Wargreymon » Thu Nov 4, 2021 3:58 am

I wonder if the Pistons regret that "fade for Cade" thing they were doing last season for more lotto balls...Slow start to say the least.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#198 » by anotherhomer » Thu Nov 4, 2021 4:04 am

Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:JB Bickerstaff is going to run Mobley into the ground. He is killing the kid slowly, but surely.


JB Bickerstaff needs to get wins
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#199 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Nov 4, 2021 4:07 am

Yeah let’s anoint Cade a bust already. I mean he is not healthy and we are a few weeks into his rookie season and all. I don’t even like Cade much but way to early to judge. Edward’s came on strong in the second half. Give Cade at least a season before he gets trashed.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2) 

Post#200 » by Madhouse » Thu Nov 4, 2021 5:05 am

not much going on today except that Davion Mitchell looked good.

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