2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[MrBigShot]

It’s all about trends and what have you done for me lately. Franz has scored over 15 points just twice in his last ten games. Cade has done so eight times and has scored over 20 six times in his last ten.

ok trend last 10 games
cade 41% from field and 29 % from 3
franz 48% from field and 46.5 from 3

Cade 20/7/5, pistons 6-4, current 3 game win streak
Franz 15/5/4, magic 4-6, current 1 game losing streak

Hearing from several credible sources that Cade also helped an old lady cross the street during this 10 game stretch, kid's a hero

[docholliday99]

The bolded, cannot be overstated. We are talking about a rookie who is getting doubled team the same amount as Lebron, and more then Stephen Curry.

The list is insane;

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en

That's cause there's no one else worthy of guarding on the Pistons.

As for ROY, been a long time but imo, there are 2 rooks neck and neck and deserving of the award - Barnes and Mobley. You can make a strong case for either but even then, the strong case is barely more than the other player.

That is a very reductionist, and dismissive statement.

Not to mention untrue. Truly Bewildering. Root for who you want, makes no difference to me as this entire rookie class has been amazing to watch this season, but making a blatantly false assertion is just silly.

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely - or they'd have more than 18 wins.

[basketballRob]

That's cause there's no one else worthy of guarding on the Pistons.

As for ROY, been a long time but imo, there are 2 rooks neck and neck and deserving of the award - Barnes and Mobley. You can make a strong case for either but even then, the strong case is barely more than the other player.

That is a very reductionist, and dismissive statement.

Not to mention untrue. Truly Bewildering. Root for who you want, makes no difference to me as this entire rookie class has been amazing to watch this season, but making a blatantly false assertion is just silly.

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely - or they'd have more than 18 wins.

Hopefully Cade shows up against the Magic next week. Suggs locked him down in the last meeting.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[docholliday99]

It’s all about trends and what have you done for me lately. Franz has scored over 15 points just twice in his last ten games. Cade has done so eight times and has scored over 20 six times in his last ten.

ok trend last 10 games
cade 41% from field and 29 % from 3
franz 48% from field and 46.5 from 3

Cade 20/7/5, pistons 6-4, current 3 game win streak
Franz 15/5/4, magic 4-6, current 1 game losing streak

Hearing from several credible sources that Cade also helped an old lady cross the street during this 10 game stretch, kid's a hero

Cade and Franz are great but really, Giddey has been better than both those players this year.

[reanimator]

That's cause there's no one else worthy of guarding on the Pistons.

As for ROY, been a long time but imo, there are 2 rooks neck and neck and deserving of the award - Barnes and Mobley. You can make a strong case for either but even then, the strong case is barely more than the other player.

That is a very reductionist, and dismissive statement.

Not to mention untrue. Truly Bewildering. Root for who you want, makes no difference to me as this entire rookie class has been amazing to watch this season, but making a blatantly false assertion is just silly.

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely.

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

[docholliday99]

That is a very reductionist, and dismissive statement.

Not to mention untrue. Truly Bewildering. Root for who you want, makes no difference to me as this entire rookie class has been amazing to watch this season, but making a blatantly false assertion is just silly.

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely.

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I think Cade is a stud and there's no denying his impact on the team. TBH, I'm really not a fan of the ROY award, especially in a draft class like 2021....Cade, Barnes, Mobley may be leading the ROY but Kuminga, Green and Suggs have shown flashes and Giddey has amazing vision - akin to Lamelo. Green has really started to look good since the break.

I think come end of season, it's really going to be a 3 headed race between these players (though personally I think Mobley and Barnes have separated themselves on the defensive end), I haven't hade this much fun watching a draft class since '03.

Barnes
PPG 14.9 - RPG 7.6 - APG 3.3 - BPG 0.8 - SPG 1.1 - 3P% 30.6 - FT% 73.4 - TS% 55.0 - 9 DD2
Mobley
PPG 14.6 - RPG 8.2 - APG 2.6 - BPG 1.7 - SPG 0.8 - 3p% 26.0 - FT% 67.0 - TS% 54.4 - 16 DD2
Cade
PPG 16.5 - RPG 5.8 - APG 5.2 - BPG 0.6 - SPG 1.2 - 3P% 32.1 - FT% 84.3 - TS% 49.3 - 8 DD2, 2TD3

[ForeverTFC]

That is a very reductionist, and dismissive statement.

Not to mention untrue. Truly Bewildering. Root for who you want, makes no difference to me as this entire rookie class has been amazing to watch this season, but making a blatantly false assertion is just silly.

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely.

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

[reanimator]

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely.

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

Watch the games. Like stated earlier, 1-13 without him.

And most players arent rookies. If you want to compare players in similar roles then Cade/Suggs/Giddey is it.

[orlando_joe]

It’s all about trends and what have you done for me lately. Franz has scored over 15 points just twice in his last ten games. Cade has done so eight times and has scored over 20 six times in his last ten.

ok trend last 10 games
cade 41% from field and 29 % from 3
franz 48% from field and 46.5 from 3

Cade 20/7/5, pistons 6-4, current 3 game win streak
Franz 15/5/4, magic 4-6, current 1 game losing streak

Hearing from several credible sources that Cade also helped an old lady cross the street during this 10 game stretch, kid's a hero

so 1 team lost overtime game one team won reverse it and both 5 and 5...cant help collins bricked a freethrow..lol...and one guy ball hog and one guy team player...just kidding around...i just think will come down to wire...and only thing this magic fan has to cheer for ...till lottery..lol...wish this draft was as deep as last

[MrBigShot]

It was meant to be completely dismissive, it's Detroit and they're 18-47, led by a limited coach who has the team barely playing better than a G-league team - so despite that you subjectively don't like my assertion, the fact of the matter is it's not untrue at all. Outside Cade, can you name another player on the Pistons that other teams should be worried about? Beef Stew? Oly? Cujo? Bey? Grant? Not likely.

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

We are 1-13 without Cade and 17-34 with him. Still a bad team with him, but absolutely atrocious without him. Whether you think his play has resulted in wins or not doesn't really change the actual win/loss columns.

It's always pretty entertaining to me when people hyperfocus on efficiency for rookies, especially ones that are asked to create their own offense and take on a big responsibility. Rookie year is a time to get acclimated and show flashes of what a player could become with more development and experience. Hyperfocusing on efficiency and/or throwing out advanced stats without context as people do sometimes is why guys like Jalen Green or Anthony Edwards get the bust label like 1/4th of the season in. Flash forward a bit and Jalen Green is starting to show the makings of an all star guard. Your efficiency isn't going to be all that great as a rookie if you aren't getting fed open spot up threes or drop off dunks. Though all fairness I should mention that Scottie Barnes' efficiency is extremely impressive since he does do a pretty fair share of creating his own shots.

Once upon a time a pretty great perimeter player who's name starts with a Le and ends with a Bron put up 21ppg in his rookie season on a sizzling 49 TS% (half a percent lower than Cade's if we're getting technical) I wonder if people would have said most players could put up his numbers if given similar usage. Doubtful.

[MarcusBrody]

cade has 1 more rb and 2 more ast and 1 more pt per game then franz
with franz shooting 5% better from 3 and 7% better from field
with cade taking 20% more shots then franz
and cade has missed 20% of games
franz 1 of 4 nba players to start every game
franz better defender
and franz just counted as out?

85% of Franz's 3 pt are assisted, just 28% of Cade's 3 pt are
53% of Franz's 2 pt are assisted, just 22% of Cade's 2 pt are
Franz creates 5.9 potential assist per game, Cade creates 9.7 potential assist per game
Pistons are 1-13 without Cade and 17-34 with him, Orlando has 16 wins with Franz playing every game
Cade is in the top 20 for players who get doubled the most, Franz is not on the list

Franz is a better defender based on what? Because Cade is solid on that end and if there is a gap its not enough to give the nod either way.

As a Michigan fan, I love Franz but his case can be stated without using Cade as some litmus.

The bolded, cannot be overstated. We are talking about a rookie who is getting doubled team the same amount as Lebron, and more then Stephen Curry.

The list is insane;

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en

The thing about double teams is that they're called for in two scenarios: 1. the player is unstoppable without one 2. the player is susceptible to them (both brings about the perfect storm).

Cade actually gets doubled on a higher percentage of his possessions than LeBron or Steph, but his team scores way less points when he does. You double team LeBron, and his team scores 1.21 points per possession, whereas the Lakers score 1.089 points per possession on average. You don't want to double LeBron unless you need to as the team scores more efficiently when he is doubled as he's good at passing out of double teams.

The Pistons score .99 points per possession when Cade is doubled and 1.046 on average, so possessions on which Cade is doubled nets the Pistons less points. Thus teams bring lots of double teams as it can be productive as a proactive defensive strategy. It's part respect for what a player can do if the are not doubled, but part weighing the risk-reward, and right now there is a positive balance for doubling Cade.

[JackTalkThai]

It’s all about trends and what have you done for me lately. Franz has scored over 15 points just twice in his last ten games. Cade has done so eight times and has scored over 20 six times in his last ten.

ok trend last 10 games
cade 41% from field and 29 % from 3
franz 48% from field and 46.5 from 3

Assisted 2’s and assisted 3’s will always be scored at a higher clip than shots that need to be created for oneself. That isn’t a trend. That’s just a fact of life in the NBA. Those who can, create. Those who can’t, let someone create for them.

[ForeverTFC]

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

Watch the games. Like stated earlier, 1-13 without him.

And most players arent rookies. If you want to compare players in similar roles then Cade/Suggs/Giddey is it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think you can at least tell us what is driving it since you are watching the games - Pistons games are not must watch for many outside Detroit. If I just isolated to wins in the last 10, only thing that significantly changes is that his 3p% goes up by 4% to 36% (still meh), his FG% drops but he takes 1 more shot and gets 1 more free throw. He's not doing anything fundamentally different.

If I'm a betting man, I say the wins are much more a result of Grant being re-integrated into the team, seeing increased usage, shooting at .500+ and the 3 at .400+. And if I took it a step further, teams probably have not game planned for his return since 1) he's been out since December and 2) no one is game planning for Detroit. His presence is probably opening up some room for Cade (though he's not doing all that much with it).

I like Cade, but let's be honest in our discussions.

[reanimator]

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

Watch the games. Like stated earlier, 1-13 without him.

And most players arent rookies. If you want to compare players in similar roles then Cade/Suggs/Giddey is it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think you can at least tell us what is driving it since you are watching the games - Pistons games are not must watch for many outside Detroit. If I just isolated to wins in the last 10, only thing that significantly changes is that his 3p% goes up by 4% to 36% (still meh), his FG% drops but he takes 1 more shot and gets 1 more free throw. He's not doing anything fundamentally different.

If I'm a betting man, I say the wins are much more a result of Grant being re-integrated into the team, seeing increased usage, shooting at .500+ and the 3 at .400+. And if I took it a step further, teams probably have not game planned for his return since 1) he's been out since December and 2) no one is game planning for Detroit. His presence is probably opening up some room for Cade (though he's not doing all that much with it).

I like Cade, but let's be honest in our discussions.

And the games at the beginning of the season with no Cade where they couldn't buy a win despite Grant's presence? And the games the Pistons won with Cade and no Grant?

They beat Milwaukee, Miami, Toronto, Cleveland, and quite a few others with no Grant but yes lets be honest.

[basketballRob]

Even if true, you do realize this helps Cade's case? That despite little talent around him and facing extra defensive attention, he is still finding ways to produce and even leading his squad to a mini winning streak? The reason why a player faces a double doesn't make the double any less of a challenge lol. I, for one, welcome when the Pistons are talent rich and Cade has less of a burden so he can pump up those pretty efficiency stats and assist.

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

We are 1-13 without Cade and 17-34 with him. Still a bad team with him, but absolutely atrocious without him. Whether you think his play has resulted in wins or not doesn't really change the actual win/loss columns.

It's always pretty entertaining to me when people hyperfocus on efficiency for rookies, especially ones that are asked to create their own offense and take on a big responsibility. Rookie year is a time to get acclimated and show flashes of what a player could become with more development and experience. Hyperfocusing on efficiency and/or throwing out advanced stats without context as people do sometimes is why guys like Jalen Green or Anthony Edwards get the bust label like 1/4th of the season in. Flash forward a bit and Jalen Green is starting to show the makings of an all star guard. Your efficiency isn't going to be all that great as a rookie if you aren't getting fed open spot up threes or drop off dunks. Though all fairness I should mention that Scottie Barnes' efficiency is extremely impressive since he does do a pretty fair share of creating his own shots.

Once upon a time a pretty great perimeter player who's name starts with a Le and ends with a Bron put up 21ppg in his rookie season on a sizzling 49 TS% (half a percent lower than Cade's if we're getting technical) I wonder if people would have said most players could put up his numbers if given similar usage. Doubtful.

I like Beef Stew and Killian is finally looking like a pro. Olynyk, Grant, and CoJo give the Pistons some good veteran leadership.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[7r5ur]

Eh... he's shooting 41% from the field and 29% from 3 during the last 10 games. Also not going to the line much at 3.5 attempts and not really creating that much given his usage at 5 assists a game. Unless he's leading them to wins on defense, he's not leading them to wins. Most players in this league can put up his numbers with the same usage and green light based on % on makes.

Watch the games. Like stated earlier, 1-13 without him.

And most players arent rookies. If you want to compare players in similar roles then Cade/Suggs/Giddey is it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think you can at least tell us what is driving it since you are watching the games - Pistons games are not must watch for many outside Detroit. If I just isolated to wins in the last 10, only thing that significantly changes is that his 3p% goes up by 4% to 36% (still meh), his FG% drops but he takes 1 more shot and gets 1 more free throw. He's not doing anything fundamentally different.

If I'm a betting man, I say the wins are much more a result of Grant being re-integrated into the team, seeing increased usage, shooting at .500+ and the 3 at .400+. And if I took it a step further, teams probably have not game planned for his return since 1) he's been out since December and 2) no one is game planning for Detroit. His presence is probably opening up some room for Cade (though he's not doing all that much with it).

I like Cade, but let's be honest in our discussions.

Perhaps the Raptors should start "game planning" for Detroit. Just sayin. How many times do they have to lose to a tanking squad in a row before a team formulates some sort of game plan?

Obviously it takes a number of factors for a team that was truly horrible to become semi-decent. Health, haven't had many times with Olynyk, Grant, and Cade all healthy. Saddiq was shooting terribly to start the year and has come around. Cade has settled into his role as the leader of the team and the guy that takes charge in clutch situations. Grant is slowly settling into his role as a #2 option. Plus Bagley has offered up a guy who can finish around the rim.

But if you watch the games, you see that Cade is the engine of the team. It cannot be more obvious.

[MrBigShot]

I like Beef Stew and Killian is finally looking like a pro. Olynyk, Grant, and CoJo give the Pistons some good veteran leadership.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Thumbs up sir. Wagner is a future all star and Suggs has really great physical tools and two way potential if he shores up a few things.

[bisme37]

Cade has been killing it lately. I'm so impressed with him. He probably got rolling a little late to win ROY but I think he's playing better than any other rookie as the season winds down.

[JackTalkThai]

Got rolling a little late? Everyone knows he missed summer league and the start of the season due to injury but the guy averaged 18 points, 6 assists, 6 rebounds, ~ 2 steals and shot 40+% from three IN DECEMBER. Three months ago. That’s when he got rolling.

And compare Cade’s November (you know, when he got off to a “slow start”) to Mobley’s season long numbers… eerily similar.

Cade’s November:
14.6 ppg
6.5 rpg
4.7 apg
1.3 spg
0.7 bpg

Mobley’s season:
14.6 ppg
8.2 rpg
2.6 apg
0.7 spg
1.7 bpg

[AaronB]

Reading this thread is like watching a used car salesman sell a car ("ignore those bald tires and come listen to this killer stereo").

The simple fact is that if Franz could rebound as well as he plays offense, he would be running away with the ROY award.

If Cade was more efficient he would be running away with the award.

Mobley and Barnes are good players and are probably currently 1 and 2 for the award, but not so far ahead of Franz and Cade.