How strong are the Cavs now?

[Spintown]

Lakers should do Lebron a solid and trade him to the Cavs for Love, fillers, and any leftover picks the cavs still have.

[Crunch 99]

The young Cavs need Rubio's veteran leadership. He needs to come back before the players adopt some bad habits. Mitchell was a good two way player the last time he was paired with Rubio. Mitchell's effort on D slid after Rubio left the Jazz. Rubio inspires hard efforts from his teammates on both ends of the court.

[cupcakesnake]

I hope what doesn't get lost in the Donovan Mitchell injection of offense is the Garland/Allen pick & roll duo. Despite having pretty poor spacing last year (22nd in 3-point attempts, league average in efficiency) that duo made some pretty jaw dropping plays out of the pick & roll. We already know from his time with Gobert that Mitchell is not a good interior passer so far in his career (he makes good kick out passes though). So for the Garland/Allen magic to grow, Mitchell would need to be a spacer in some of those sets.

Mitchell 3pt % should go up . Since he’s not being forced create for himself all the time now . Pick and roll with Mitchell shooting 3 should be money maker for the Cavs

Maybe. If you play smartly against Cavs you don't help from Mitchell. Cavs have two bigs who can't shoot (as right now, maybe Mobley have learned), so you help from the big guy who isn't involved in pick&roll. And also if Cavs start Okoro then there is one more guy from where the help can come instead of Mitchell.

And teams actually takes Cavs seriously this year. Last year Allen & Garland pick&roll was very effective in the beginning of the year, but then died because other team started to help and they helped from Mobley and Okoro. Which are not 3 point threat's.

What Mitchell brings is another scorer and Cavs hope that his and Garlands scoring is enough when you add their defense to the mix. I still think Mitchell need to score most of his points in isolation or in pick & roll ball handler.

Not sure I completely agree with either statements.
Ballhogger: Mitchell isn't getting an obvious upgrade in terms of offensive environment. While his pull up shooting and off-the-dribble game was the primary driver of offense in Utah, the Jazz had a very solid secondary ball-handler in Mike Conley, elite shooting (2nd in 3PA, 11th in %, 2nd in eFG%), the strong overall offensive game of Bojan Bogdanovic, the roll game and offensive rebounding of Gobert, the shooting/passing synergy of Joe Ingles, and the microwave scoring of Clarkson. We're talking about the #1 offense last year, and the 3rd ranked offense the year before. Cleveland was the 20th ranked offense last year. While Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley, and Jarrett Allen is a slight offensive improvement over Gobert, this is a defensively built roster that Mitchell is slotting into. It's going to skew more offense this year for sure, but thinking Mitchell gets to chill now that he has someone else to create for him in Garland doesn't make much sense.

Hugi Mancura: I feel like this is an oversimplification. The Cavs will create offensive sets to force help off of Mitchell, and make Okoro and Mobley inconvenient to help off of (Mobley is also okay in iso, so it's awkward to help off of him if it means letting him post up a guard. He's got that fadeaway. He was elite in the midrange and as a rim finisher). Mitchell also wont play all his time with the starters and will log minutes with Kevin Love and/or Cedi Osman. I don't think the Allen/Garland pick & roll died because teams started sending help, the Cavs continued to suffer injuries throughout the year. They lost Sexton after 11 games, Rubio after 34, and finally Jarrett Allen after 56. Mobley and Garland missed a dozen games in each. They brought in LEvert and Rondo (for 20 games each) but this team broke down due to injury, not due to schemes being solved.

[gorz]

Skip to near the end of the video.

According to sportsline, Cavs went from 42.5 wins before the Mitchell trade and to an impressive 42.9 wins after the trade. Lol

Their chances at a title go from 0.3% to 0.4%

They traded all those picks for half a win. That’s so Cleveland.

Watch on YouTube

Mitchell carried a team with Gobert and bunch of role players to 1st seed out west not long ago and is now playing with a team hitting its stride from last season that has a young big that can replicate goberts rim protection but with more offensive ability another rising star big in Mobley and one of the best pgs/playmaker in the game in Garland. I know it's super early but the cavs pulled off a masterclass rebuild following the loss of two mega stars in such a short period of time.

[CP War Hawks]

Similar plain as the Hawks. DM doesn't really compliment Garland to me. LM was arguably their 2nd best 3pt shooter. The 7 foot starting trio was what allowed them to break through last season imo. Now they have to insert a mid sf in place.

If Mobley can expand his shooting to something resembling KG obviously that puts them higher than the Hawks. Starting frontcourt that can't shoot puts a cap on general success.

[basketballRob]

Dan Gilbert's net worth has exploded over the last few years to $17.3B. The Cavs will probably have no problem paying the luxury tax in a few years.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[yoyoboy]

Skip to near the end of the video.

According to sportsline, Cavs went from 42.5 wins before the Mitchell trade and to an impressive 42.9 wins after the trade. Lol

Their chances at a title go from 0.3% to 0.4%

They traded all those picks for half a win. That’s so Cleveland.

We have four All-Star level players all 25 and under. And not like oh, they have the potential to make an ASG if they develop the right way. 3 guys who are already All-Stars and the 4th just finished a narrow 2nd in ROTY voting and projects to be better in most people’s eyes than the other 3 current All Stars. How many other teams can say that? Oh, and the team will also have over $30 million in cap space next summer.

So what does that make Houston if that situation is “so Cleveland?”

[Ballerhogger]

Mitchell 3pt % should go up . Since he’s not being forced create for himself all the time now . Pick and roll with Mitchell shooting 3 should be money maker for the Cavs

Maybe. If you play smartly against Cavs you don't help from Mitchell. Cavs have two bigs who can't shoot (as right now, maybe Mobley have learned), so you help from the big guy who isn't involved in pick&roll. And also if Cavs start Okoro then there is one more guy from where the help can come instead of Mitchell.

And teams actually takes Cavs seriously this year. Last year Allen & Garland pick&roll was very effective in the beginning of the year, but then died because other team started to help and they helped from Mobley and Okoro. Which are not 3 point threat's.

What Mitchell brings is another scorer and Cavs hope that his and Garlands scoring is enough when you add their defense to the mix. I still think Mitchell need to score most of his points in isolation or in pick & roll ball handler.

Not sure I completely agree with either statements.
Ballhogger: Mitchell isn't getting an obvious upgrade in terms of offensive environment. While his pull up shooting and off-the-dribble game was the primary driver of offense in Utah, the Jazz had a very solid secondary ball-handler in Mike Conley, elite shooting (2nd in 3PA, 11th in %, 2nd in eFG%), the strong overall offensive game of Bojan Bogdanovic, the roll game and offensive rebounding of Gobert, the shooting/passing synergy of Joe Ingles, and the microwave scoring of Clarkson. We're talking about the #1 offense last year, and the 3rd ranked offense the year before. Cleveland was the 20th ranked offense last year. While Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley, and Jarrett Allen is a slight offensive improvement over Gobert, this is a defensively built roster that Mitchell is slotting into. It's going to skew more offense this year for sure, but thinking Mitchell gets to chill now that he has someone else to create for him in Garland doesn't make much sense.

Hugi Mancura: I feel like this is an oversimplification. The Cavs will create offensive sets to force help off of Mitchell, and make Okoro and Mobley inconvenient to help off of (Mobley is also okay in iso, so it's awkward to help off of him if it means letting him post up a guard. He's got that fadeaway. He was elite in the midrange and as a rim finisher). Mitchell also wont play all his time with the starters and will log minutes with Kevin Love and/or Cedi Osman. I don't think the Allen/Garland pick & roll died because teams started sending help, the Cavs continued to suffer injuries throughout the year. They lost Sexton after 11 games, Rubio after 34, and finally Jarrett Allen after 56. Mobley and Garland missed a dozen games in each. They brought in LEvert and Rondo (for 20 games each) but this team broke down due to injury, not due to schemes being solved.

Are you saying Garland not upgrade over Conely? When it comes to creating shots for others? Conely was in out the line up 2021 only playing 51 games. His minutes per game has only gone down and down due to injuries. His numbers should go up a some with better guard creating for him. How they work together will be paramount for their success. They are trying to 1 to 2 punch at the guard positions.

[cavsfanatic]

The young Cavs need Rubio's veteran leadership. He needs to come back before the players adopt some bad habits. Mitchell was a good two way player the last time he was paired with Rubio. Mitchell's effort on D slid after Rubio left the Jazz. Rubio inspires hard efforts from players on both ends of the court.

I was amazed at the effect Rubio had on the Cavs last year.
He's a wizard on the court and he inspires the other guys to play their butts off.

[pingpongrac]

Skip to near the end of the video.

According to sportsline, Cavs went from 42.5 wins before the Mitchell trade and to an impressive 42.9 wins after the trade. Lol

Their chances at a title go from 0.3% to 0.4%

They traded all those picks for half a win. That’s so Cleveland.

Watch on YouTube

Mitchell carried a team with Gobert and bunch of role players to 1st seed out west not long ago and is now playing with a team hitting its stride from last season that has a young big that can replicate goberts rim protection but with more offensive ability another rising star big in Mobley and one of the best pgs/playmaker in the game in Garland. I know it's super early but the cavs pulled off a masterclass rebuild following the loss of two mega stars in such a short period of time.

Jazz without Mitchell the last 3 seasons: 22-15 (~50-win pace) and +3 on/off
Jazz without Gobert the last 3 seasons: 9-12 (~35-win pace) and -11 on/off

Obviously it's a pretty small sample size over 226 games, but both visually and statistically it was Gobert that had the biggest impact – by far – on the Jazz winning ~50 games per season. Mitchell isn't necessarily an empty calories player, but his impact doesn't go much beyond scoring a fairly efficient 25 PPG and dishing out 10 scoring opportunities for his teammates due to his gravity despite having the ball in his hands basically every possession he is on the floor. Gobert is the main reason Utah has been a top 5 defence the last few seasons and he actually had a significant impact on the offensive end as well (6.5 screen assists which is #1 in the league in that span while also being top 3 in both OREB and putbacks).

[Ein Sof]

Wouldn't be surprised by 50+ wins. The Cavs have never had a scorer this good.

[Vampirate]

Not contenders or anything but I wouldn't want to face them in the playoffs.

[mcfly1204]

Wouldn't be surprised by 50+ wins. The Cavs have never had a scorer this good.

Kyrie Irving: "Hello!"

[cupcakesnake]

Maybe. If you play smartly against Cavs you don't help from Mitchell. Cavs have two bigs who can't shoot (as right now, maybe Mobley have learned), so you help from the big guy who isn't involved in pick&roll. And also if Cavs start Okoro then there is one more guy from where the help can come instead of Mitchell.

And teams actually takes Cavs seriously this year. Last year Allen & Garland pick&roll was very effective in the beginning of the year, but then died because other team started to help and they helped from Mobley and Okoro. Which are not 3 point threat's.

What Mitchell brings is another scorer and Cavs hope that his and Garlands scoring is enough when you add their defense to the mix. I still think Mitchell need to score most of his points in isolation or in pick & roll ball handler.

Not sure I completely agree with either statements.
Ballhogger: Mitchell isn't getting an obvious upgrade in terms of offensive environment. While his pull up shooting and off-the-dribble game was the primary driver of offense in Utah, the Jazz had a very solid secondary ball-handler in Mike Conley, elite shooting (2nd in 3PA, 11th in %, 2nd in eFG%), the strong overall offensive game of Bojan Bogdanovic, the roll game and offensive rebounding of Gobert, the shooting/passing synergy of Joe Ingles, and the microwave scoring of Clarkson. We're talking about the #1 offense last year, and the 3rd ranked offense the year before. Cleveland was the 20th ranked offense last year. While Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley, and Jarrett Allen is a slight offensive improvement over Gobert, this is a defensively built roster that Mitchell is slotting into. It's going to skew more offense this year for sure, but thinking Mitchell gets to chill now that he has someone else to create for him in Garland doesn't make much sense.

Hugi Mancura: I feel like this is an oversimplification. The Cavs will create offensive sets to force help off of Mitchell, and make Okoro and Mobley inconvenient to help off of (Mobley is also okay in iso, so it's awkward to help off of him if it means letting him post up a guard. He's got that fadeaway. He was elite in the midrange and as a rim finisher). Mitchell also wont play all his time with the starters and will log minutes with Kevin Love and/or Cedi Osman. I don't think the Allen/Garland pick & roll died because teams started sending help, the Cavs continued to suffer injuries throughout the year. They lost Sexton after 11 games, Rubio after 34, and finally Jarrett Allen after 56. Mobley and Garland missed a dozen games in each. They brought in LEvert and Rondo (for 20 games each) but this team broke down due to injury, not due to schemes being solved.

Are you saying Garland not upgrade over Conely? When it comes to creating shots for others? Conely was in out the line up 2021 only playing 51 games. His minutes per game has only gone down and down due to injuries. His numbers should go up a some with better guard creating for him. How they work together will be paramount for their success. They are trying to 1 to 2 punch at the guard positions.

I specifically said:

Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley

While, yes I agree that Garland's drive and kick game could hook Mitchell up for some nice c&s looks, overall Mitchell is potentially facing a worse offensive environment. Utah loves lineups with 4 shooters, Cleveland might start 3 bad shooters (Okoro, Allen, Mobley). The extra catch & shoot looks that Garland might generate better than Conley aren't going to completely compensate for a crowded paint which could negatively affect Mitchell's attempts at the rim and his floater game.

Cleveland could improve in a ton of ways and become a better spot:
- Mobley continuing to improve as a shooter (fairly likely I think)
- Okoro becoming a shooter (less likely but not unthinkable)
- Not starting Okoro in favor of another shooter (possibly Cedi)
- Playing a lot of Mitchell + bench lineups with Kevin Love (probably a good weapon for Cleveland.)

[BrianInPhilly]

Not sure I completely agree with either statements.
Ballhogger: Mitchell isn't getting an obvious upgrade in terms of offensive environment. While his pull up shooting and off-the-dribble game was the primary driver of offense in Utah, the Jazz had a very solid secondary ball-handler in Mike Conley, elite shooting (2nd in 3PA, 11th in %, 2nd in eFG%), the strong overall offensive game of Bojan Bogdanovic, the roll game and offensive rebounding of Gobert, the shooting/passing synergy of Joe Ingles, and the microwave scoring of Clarkson. We're talking about the #1 offense last year, and the 3rd ranked offense the year before. Cleveland was the 20th ranked offense last year. While Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley, and Jarrett Allen is a slight offensive improvement over Gobert, this is a defensively built roster that Mitchell is slotting into. It's going to skew more offense this year for sure, but thinking Mitchell gets to chill now that he has someone else to create for him in Garland doesn't make much sense.

Hugi Mancura: I feel like this is an oversimplification. The Cavs will create offensive sets to force help off of Mitchell, and make Okoro and Mobley inconvenient to help off of (Mobley is also okay in iso, so it's awkward to help off of him if it means letting him post up a guard. He's got that fadeaway. He was elite in the midrange and as a rim finisher). Mitchell also wont play all his time with the starters and will log minutes with Kevin Love and/or Cedi Osman. I don't think the Allen/Garland pick & roll died because teams started sending help, the Cavs continued to suffer injuries throughout the year. They lost Sexton after 11 games, Rubio after 34, and finally Jarrett Allen after 56. Mobley and Garland missed a dozen games in each. They brought in LEvert and Rondo (for 20 games each) but this team broke down due to injury, not due to schemes being solved.

Are you saying Garland not upgrade over Conely? When it comes to creating shots for others? Conely was in out the line up 2021 only playing 51 games. His minutes per game has only gone down and down due to injuries. His numbers should go up a some with better guard creating for him. How they work together will be paramount for their success. They are trying to 1 to 2 punch at the guard positions.

I specifically said:

Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley

While, yes I agree that Garland's drive and kick game could hook Mitchell up for some nice c&s looks, overall Mitchell is potentially facing a worse offensive environment. Utah loves lineups with 4 shooters, Cleveland might start 3 bad shooters (Okoro, Allen, Mobley). The extra catch & shoot looks that Garland might generate better than Conley aren't going to completely compensate for a crowded paint which could negatively affect Mitchell's attempts at the rim and his floater game.

Cleveland could improve in a ton of ways and become a better spot:
- Mobley continuing to improve as a shooter (fairly likely I think)
- Okoro becoming a shooter (less likely but not unthinkable)
- Not starting Okoro in favor of another shooter (possibly Cedi)
- Playing a lot of Mitchell + bench lineups with Kevin Love (probably a good weapon for Cleveland.)

You mention them starting Okoro, Mobley, & Allen (3 no shooters … though you’re mentioning a guy who shot 35% from 3 too) as a question mark … ignoring the fact that somehow that same lineup with Garland & Markanan DOMINATED teams midsession last year until injuries forced them to switch lineups.

So we already have evidence of those 3 working great w/ 2 shooters. Mitchell is just replacing Markanan.

Plus again Mobley & Allen are only sharing the court like 16 minutes a game during the regular season. Most of the game it’s Love next to 1 of those guys which opens up the court a lot, as you mentioned at the end. So if a team is exploiting the Cavs for not shooting they can just throw out Love instead of Mobley/Allen & prioritize a guy like Dean Wade who might start at the 3 anyway.

The Cavs may have issues but it’s mainly perimeter defense in my opinion & just Caris Lavert in general who I really dislike as a player. Lavert is useless in my opinion on this team if they’re healthy. Rubio, Okoro, Wade, & Steven provide more. Offensively they’ll be amazing. Garland & Allen pick and roll with Mitchell ready to cut/shoot while Love is in the corner or Mobley in the dunker spot is going to be practically impossible to stop … just like it was last year.

[cupcakesnake]

Are you saying Garland not upgrade over Conely? When it comes to creating shots for others? Conely was in out the line up 2021 only playing 51 games. His minutes per game has only gone down and down due to injuries. His numbers should go up a some with better guard creating for him. How they work together will be paramount for their success. They are trying to 1 to 2 punch at the guard positions.

I specifically said:

Garland is an upgrade over the older Conley

While, yes I agree that Garland's drive and kick game could hook Mitchell up for some nice c&s looks, overall Mitchell is potentially facing a worse offensive environment. Utah loves lineups with 4 shooters, Cleveland might start 3 bad shooters (Okoro, Allen, Mobley). The extra catch & shoot looks that Garland might generate better than Conley aren't going to completely compensate for a crowded paint which could negatively affect Mitchell's attempts at the rim and his floater game.

Cleveland could improve in a ton of ways and become a better spot:
- Mobley continuing to improve as a shooter (fairly likely I think)
- Okoro becoming a shooter (less likely but not unthinkable)
- Not starting Okoro in favor of another shooter (possibly Cedi)
- Playing a lot of Mitchell + bench lineups with Kevin Love (probably a good weapon for Cleveland.)

You mention them starting Okoro, Mobley, & Allen (3 no shooters … though you’re mentioning a guy who shot 35% from 3 too) as a question mark … ignoring the fact that somehow that same lineup with Garland & Markanan DOMINATED teams midsession last year until injuries forced them to switch lineups.

So we already have evidence of those 3 working great w/ 2 shooters. Mitchell is just replacing Markanan.

Plus again Mobley & Allen are only sharing the court like 16 minutes a game during the regular season. Most of the game it’s Love next to 1 of those guys which opens up the court a lot, as you mentioned at the end. So if a team is exploiting the Cavs for not shooting they can just throw out Love instead of Mobley/Allen & prioritize a guy like Dean Wade who might start at the 3 anyway. Shooting is important but can be overstated. The Bucks dominate the league while consistently playing 3 mediocre shooters too (Holliday, Giannis, Lopez).

The Cavs may have issues but it’s mainly perimeter defense in my opinion & just Caris Lavert in general who I really dislike as a player. Lavert is useless in my opinion on this team if they’re healthy. Rubio, Okoro, Wade, & Steven provide more. Offensively they’ll be amazing. Garland & Allen pick and roll with Mitchell ready to cut/shoot while Love is in the corner or Mobley in the dunker spot is going to be practically impossible to stop … just like it was last year.

You've lost the thread of the discussion. Everything I said was in response to someone saying Donovan Mitchell would be in a better situation for his shooting numbers (due to Garland being a better point guard). You're responding like I've said something about the Cavs not being functional. I was comparing them to Utah last year, the #1 offense in the NBA. The points your arguing aren't ones I've made, or at least not in this general context. I didn't say their offense will struggle: I said Mitchell isn't walking into a better offense than the one he just had. I like Cleveland more overall than I like Utah's team from last year.

[toooskies]

The Cavs were a 3 seed last year until injuries hit Garland and then Allen. But the team had to play 2-way players significant minutes at PG and C during that time because of other injuries (Sexton, Rubio, Rondo, LeVert as lead ballhandlers, Mobley and Wade too).

So you could make a good argument that with health this Cavs team would have been top 4 last year. Because in a league where a bunch of teams are clustered together, good health will be the major differentiator.

Mitchell should provide some additional resilience to injury. They shouldn't fall apart offensively if one of Garland or Mitchell sits out with an injury. The Cavs are still vulnerable on the defensive end of Allen is out, but RoLo should help more than Ed Davis did.

With good health this Cavs team could be scary. Hard to say whether Boston has actually put things together or just went on a run; Harden and Simmons are big question marks on other contenders; and at some point Butler is going to start declining due to age.

Playoffs are another matter, but the regular season Cavs should be really, really good.

[hoosierdaddy34]

I like them a lot. Perfect team to let Donovan be Donovan and be able to cover for his weaknesses. Will be one of the most enjoyable to watach. 4 or 5 in the East for now but Garland and Mobley development could push them higher.

[mcfly1204]

Look at how the playin games went for Cleveland. Now add this guy:

Watch on YouTube

[Michael Jordan]

They have everything they need to come out of the East in 1-2 years.