Brunson-led Knicks look like the real deal

[Dupp]

If only they had Mitchell

Right? Can you imagine Mitchell with this team? We'd be contending in no time, just like the Jazz were...

True true. Knicks would be better off without KD, embiid, lebron etc too.

[cgf]

Can someone explain what the hell Cam Reddish was doing yesterday. Dude looked completely lost out there.

another low i.q player to add to the collection

cam you'll find no argument from me about. He's been defending well for the most part...but his mind still wanders far too often, causing him to get out of position, and I never know what he's going to do on the offensive end lol.

[cgf]

If only they had Mitchell

Right? Can you imagine Mitchell with this team? We'd be contending in no time, just like the Jazz were...

True true. Knicks would be better off without KD, embiid, lebron etc too.

If we could've afforded Mitchell AND one of those tier 1 superstars to pair him with, this would be a very different conversation. But we couldn't pay the price for Mitchell without stepien'ing ourselves for if/when that tier 1 guy hits the market.

It's a shame for us, but you guys...understandably since you already had Garland & Mobley...offered Utah too much for us to match.


But if you want to send us Mitchell for two unprotected FRPs + three of our protected picks on draft-night 2023, then I'm sure our FO would be perfectly happy to take him off your hands.

[CP War Hawks]

If not already mentioned, they should finish off games with Brunson and Rose.

[GSWFan1994]

Post #2 in the thread is absolutely one of the funniest ones I've ever seen here!

[LBJKB24MJ23]

With these teams right now, they're saying us (Knicks) and Golden State are the super teams

- Knicks fans

[Dupp]

Right? Can you imagine Mitchell with this team? We'd be contending in no time, just like the Jazz were...

True true. Knicks would be better off without KD, embiid, lebron etc too.

If we could've afforded Mitchell AND one of those tier 1 superstars to pair him with, this would be a very different conversation. But we couldn't pay the price for Mitchell without stepien'ing ourselves for if/when that tier 1 guy hits the market.

It's a shame for us, but you guys...understandably since you already had Garland & Mobley...offered Utah too much for us to match.


But if you want to send us Mitchell for two unprotected FRPs + three of our protected picks on draft-night 2023, then I'm sure our FO would be perfectly happy to take him off your hands.

That’s a perfectly fine viewpoint. Implying you didn’t want him because Utah weren’t contenders doesnt really make sense.

[mj234eva]

Looks can be deceiving.

[cgf]

True true. Knicks would be better off without KD, embiid, lebron etc too.

If we could've afforded Mitchell AND one of those tier 1 superstars to pair him with, this would be a very different conversation. But we couldn't pay the price for Mitchell without stepien'ing ourselves for if/when that tier 1 guy hits the market.

It's a shame for us, but you guys...understandably since you already had Garland & Mobley...offered Utah too much for us to match.


But if you want to send us Mitchell for two unprotected FRPs + three of our protected picks on draft-night 2023, then I'm sure our FO would be perfectly happy to take him off your hands.

That’s a perfectly fine viewpoint. Implying you didn’t want him because Utah weren’t contenders doesnt really make sense.

Oh that wasn't my point, my bad. What I was trying to get at is that we wouldn't have been any better able to build a contender with Mitchell than Utah had been, if we paid the price they were demanding for him.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Looks can be deceiving.

they beat lottery teams and claimed they looked decent and proudly beating their chest on the main board lmao

[celtxman]

I was talking to a Knicks fan who was pumped up about the team. I said to him "yeah the Knicks could win 42-43 games" not only because I think they can, but also I was trying to be nice. Oddsmakers have them winning 38 games which, of course is a big improvement over last year. So my friend was really upset with the thought of "only" winning 42 games and they would do much better.
This team is better than the 4th seed team from a few years back. The trouble is that the Eastern Conference is far better.

[Pointgod]

Post #2 in the thread is absolutely one of the funniest ones I've ever seen here!

I had to go back and read it. I busted a gut laughing.

[DrCoach]

they look good, nice to have a solid pg

[JonFromVA]

The problem is they have a bunch of fringe stars. Brunson, Randle and Barrett will go off but inconsistently. You won't get it every single game. Would've helped the Knicks immensely to get Mitchell.

Part of the problem might be considering these guys even "fringe stars".

It's not this simple, but thanks to the offensive explosion in recent years (see ORTG thread); any player without a ~58 TS% may be hurting their team on offense more than they're helping.

The problem is that somebody has to take shots for a team and make things happen. If nobody was willing to take anything but wide-open 3s on a team without the talent to create a lot of wide-open 3s, then you'd just rack up shotclock violation after shotclock violation.

So guys who'd be perfectly efficient in lesser roles get forced to fill bigger roles than they are capable of and their efficiency plummets. For example, Julius Randle posted a TS of 60% the last time he got to be his team's third option...but take a pre-breakdown-AD and Jrue away from him, instead asking him to carry an offense and you'll end up with Julius posting a TS around 54%. Dropping to 51% if you also take away the one competent PG on the roster.

It's unfair to evaluate a role-player in a situation where there's no offensive system or PG to create shots; but a "star" shouldn't need much more than someone to get him the ball in a position he can go to work. I mean Shaq would struggle if he was on a team with nobody who could make an entry pass, but pass that low bar, and the big man is going to score OR create offense.

All fan bases tend to over-estimate their own players, but the Knicks are special since they often have the media helping drive that and of course a huge fan base. That doesn't excuse their front-office, though.

[cgf]

Part of the problem might be considering these guys even "fringe stars".

It's not this simple, but thanks to the offensive explosion in recent years (see ORTG thread); any player without a ~58 TS% may be hurting their team on offense more than they're helping.

The problem is that somebody has to take shots for a team and make things happen. If nobody was willing to take anything but wide-open 3s on a team without the talent to create a lot of wide-open 3s, then you'd just rack up shotclock violation after shotclock violation.

So guys who'd be perfectly efficient in lesser roles get forced to fill bigger roles than they are capable of and their efficiency plummets. For example, Julius Randle posted a TS of 60% the last time he got to be his team's third option...but take a pre-breakdown-AD and Jrue away from him, instead asking him to carry an offense and you'll end up with Julius posting a TS around 54%. Dropping to 51% if you also take away the one competent PG on the roster.

It's unfair to evaluate a role-player in a situation where there's no offensive system or PG to create shots; but a "star" shouldn't need much more than someone to get him the ball in a position he can go to work. I mean Shaq would struggle if he was on a team with nobody who could make an entry pass, but pass that low bar, and the big man is going to score OR create offense.

All fan bases tend to over-estimate their own players, but the Knicks are special since they often have the media helping drive that and of course a huge fan base. That doesn't excuse their front-office, though.

You need stars for that and we don't have any *shrug* We have some good starters that should be 2nd/3rd options on a contender (at most) and a bunch of kids, but we don't have a #1 option much less a highend one. That's why just getting an average starting PG has made such a huge difference for us on the court.

It's not because Brunson is super special or even a top 10 PG, but when you're asking a 2nd/3rd option like Julius to be a #1 option AND to initiate the offense, you're going to have a bad time. Stick him next to Ja, JJJ, and all of their shooters on the wings otoh, and Randle's TS will shoot back up.

I'm just pointing out that TS% isn't just some static evaluation of a player's quality, but something that is very much impacted by environment & circumstance for the vast majority of players...and we don't have one of the rare players who can be efficient while carrying an offense without much help.

[cgf]

I was talking to a Knicks fan who was pumped up about the team. I said to him "yeah the Knicks could win 42-43 games" not only because I think they can, but also I was trying to be nice. Oddsmakers have them winning 38 games which, of course is a big improvement over last year. So my friend was really upset with the thought of "only" winning 42 games and they would do much better.
This team is better than the 4th seed team from a few years back. The trouble is that the Eastern Conference is far better.

Your friend is a homer

I wanted to put some money on us to win 45+ games since fanduel was offering +470 and I thought we could go on a run in the backhalf of the season if RJ or Brunson took a bigger than expected step this season, but 40-42 wins is what I expect.

[JonFromVA]

The problem is that somebody has to take shots for a team and make things happen. If nobody was willing to take anything but wide-open 3s on a team without the talent to create a lot of wide-open 3s, then you'd just rack up shotclock violation after shotclock violation.

So guys who'd be perfectly efficient in lesser roles get forced to fill bigger roles than they are capable of and their efficiency plummets. For example, Julius Randle posted a TS of 60% the last time he got to be his team's third option...but take a pre-breakdown-AD and Jrue away from him, instead asking him to carry an offense and you'll end up with Julius posting a TS around 54%. Dropping to 51% if you also take away the one competent PG on the roster.

It's unfair to evaluate a role-player in a situation where there's no offensive system or PG to create shots; but a "star" shouldn't need much more than someone to get him the ball in a position he can go to work. I mean Shaq would struggle if he was on a team with nobody who could make an entry pass, but pass that low bar, and the big man is going to score OR create offense.

All fan bases tend to over-estimate their own players, but the Knicks are special since they often have the media helping drive that and of course a huge fan base. That doesn't excuse their front-office, though.

You need stars for that and we don't have any *shrug* We have some good starters that should be 2nd/3rd options on a contender (at most) and a bunch of kids, but we don't have a #1 option much less a highend one. That's why just getting an average starting PG has made such a huge difference for us on the court.

It's not because Brunson is super special or even a top 10 PG, but when you're asking a 2nd/3rd option like Julius to be a #1 option AND to initiate the offense, you're going to have a bad time. Stick him next to Ja, JJJ, and all of their shooters on the wings otoh, and Randle's TS will shoot back up.

I'm just pointing out that TS% isn't just some static evaluation of a player's quality, but something that is very much impacted by environment & circumstance for the vast majority of players...and we don't have one of the rare players who can be efficient while carrying an offense without much help.

fwiw, Barrett and Randle's TS% have plummeted even further so far this season with Brunson and a healthy Rose.

Part of the problem with players like them is how to go about getting the most out of them. If you just want someone to play some 2-man-game and knock down 3's ... well you saw first hand what a former star like Kevin Love could do or even just a guy happy to take open shots like Dean Wade can do.

Given shooting is not Randle's or Barrett's strength and you have other guys who are more effective creating shots and finishing around the rim ... how do you carve something out of the offense so they can be efficient too?

And just for the record, at the moment Barrett's TS% is sitting at 47.9%, Randle's is at 52.2%, and Quickley is at 47.9%. By comparison the guys who seem to have a clearly defined role are doing well.

[cgf]

It's unfair to evaluate a role-player in a situation where there's no offensive system or PG to create shots; but a "star" shouldn't need much more than someone to get him the ball in a position he can go to work. I mean Shaq would struggle if he was on a team with nobody who could make an entry pass, but pass that low bar, and the big man is going to score OR create offense.

All fan bases tend to over-estimate their own players, but the Knicks are special since they often have the media helping drive that and of course a huge fan base. That doesn't excuse their front-office, though.

You need stars for that and we don't have any *shrug* We have some good starters that should be 2nd/3rd options on a contender (at most) and a bunch of kids, but we don't have a #1 option much less a highend one. That's why just getting an average starting PG has made such a huge difference for us on the court.

It's not because Brunson is super special or even a top 10 PG, but when you're asking a 2nd/3rd option like Julius to be a #1 option AND to initiate the offense, you're going to have a bad time. Stick him next to Ja, JJJ, and all of their shooters on the wings otoh, and Randle's TS will shoot back up.

I'm just pointing out that TS% isn't just some static evaluation of a player's quality, but something that is very much impacted by environment & circumstance for the vast majority of players...and we don't have one of the rare players who can be efficient while carrying an offense without much help.

fwiw, Barrett and Randle's TS% have plummeted even further so far this season with Brunson and a healthy Rose.

Part of the problem with players like them is how to go about getting the most out of them. If you just want someone to play some 2-man-game and knock down 3's ... well you saw first hand what a former star like Kevin Love could do or even just a guy happy to take open shots like Dean Wade can do.

Given shooting is not Randle's or Barrett's strength and you have other guys who are more effective creating shots and finishing around the rim ... how do you carve something out of the offense so they can be efficient too?

And just for the record, at the moment Barrett's TS% is sitting at 47.9%, Randle's is at 52.2%, and Quickley is at 47.9%. By comparison the guys who seem to have a clearly defined role are doing well.

Unfortunately, we are going to need to wait to see how they do with JB since to put any stock in their current #s we'd also have to assume that RJ & Julius will continue to shoot <25% from 3.

FWIW Randle's percentages last didn't tank last season until Rose went down, and the year before it was the acquisition of Rose that helped catapult Randle & Barrett to new heights.

So let's see where things stand once we've got enough of a sample size to learn anything from this season's numbers.

[JonFromVA]

You need stars for that and we don't have any *shrug* We have some good starters that should be 2nd/3rd options on a contender (at most) and a bunch of kids, but we don't have a #1 option much less a highend one. That's why just getting an average starting PG has made such a huge difference for us on the court.

It's not because Brunson is super special or even a top 10 PG, but when you're asking a 2nd/3rd option like Julius to be a #1 option AND to initiate the offense, you're going to have a bad time. Stick him next to Ja, JJJ, and all of their shooters on the wings otoh, and Randle's TS will shoot back up.

I'm just pointing out that TS% isn't just some static evaluation of a player's quality, but something that is very much impacted by environment & circumstance for the vast majority of players...and we don't have one of the rare players who can be efficient while carrying an offense without much help.

fwiw, Barrett and Randle's TS% have plummeted even further so far this season with Brunson and a healthy Rose.

Part of the problem with players like them is how to go about getting the most out of them. If you just want someone to play some 2-man-game and knock down 3's ... well you saw first hand what a former star like Kevin Love could do or even just a guy happy to take open shots like Dean Wade can do.

Given shooting is not Randle's or Barrett's strength and you have other guys who are more effective creating shots and finishing around the rim ... how do you carve something out of the offense so they can be efficient too?

And just for the record, at the moment Barrett's TS% is sitting at 47.9%, Randle's is at 52.2%, and Quickley is at 47.9%. By comparison the guys who seem to have a clearly defined role are doing well.

Unfortunately, we are going to need to wait to see how they do with JB since to put any stock in their current #s we'd also have to assume that RJ & Julius will continue to shoot <25% from 3.

FWIW Randle's percentages last didn't tank last season until Rose went down, and the year before it was the acquisition of Rose that helped catapult Randle & Barrett to new heights.

So let's see where things stand once we've got enough of a sample size to learn anything from this season's numbers.

Of course ... you have a very reasonable/rational view of the Knicks and if I was a Knicks fan I'd be hoping/counting on things getting better too.

[stillgotgame]

Can someone explain what the hell Cam Reddish was doing yesterday. Dude looked completely lost out there.

another low i.q player to add to the collection

cam you'll find no argument from me about. He's been defending well for the most part...but his mind still wanders far too often, causing him to get out of position, and I never know what he's going to do on the offensive end lol.

He'll be traded for a left handed player shortly. Clearly that's the plan right now.