NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[bisme37]

Poll looks pretty right to me. Jokic #1. Tatum #2. Then Luka and Giannis and etc.

Btw, I really didn't think we'd get such a big difference from the last poll. In the last thread I said a couple times that I didn't think it was super urgent to make a new poll since we were able to change our vote, but obviously most people weren't doing that. I will reflect on my shortcomings.

[BelgradeNugget]

Rose didn’t deserve the 2010-2011 season mvp. In a way with the way the nba has sped up games to allow more scoring

What rose did in 2010 season is equivalent to what Tatum is doing in this current 2022 season. So Tatum should win over Jokic by a landslide using your criteria.

Lebron was the far better player than rose in 2010. Voters didn’t want to give him a 3rd straight mvp. Lebron better shooting percentage. Same 3 point field goals. Better efficiency. More points. More rebounds. Same assists. Lebron was simply greater in 2010 season than rose.

Jokic has to get the nuggets to 62 plus wins to be in consideration.

Or else I think Giannis if the bucks gets 57 wins will get mvp. For some reason. I don’t think Tatum has any shot of mvp even if Boston wins 65 games.

LeBron's 2010-2011 season was embarrassing underachievement. He started the year on Miami introduction with famous not 1, not 2, not 3, but...sitting next to arguably top 5 player Dwyane Wade, and top 20 player Chris Bosh. If you join (create) super-team expectations are super-high. The year before with Cleveland Cavaliers he won 61 games. In 2010-2011 he won 58 games, Heat was 2nd in East after Chicago Bulls. Bulls won 41 games in 2009-10, and made jump to 62 wins in 2010-11, led by Derrick Rose.
So to simplify for MVP people measure what you achieved, relative to expectations.

Edit: I agree that Nuggets have to have the best record in the NBA (not sure about number) to win it.

That’s really my point. Jokic would have to win and win big like 62 games to even get a third straight mvp.

It will go to Giannis or even Tatum before it goes to jokic for the 3rd time in a row.

KD there is too much drama and he won’t get it

Embiid would get some consideration but he misses too many games. Only way embiid wins is if the sixers get to 57-58 wins and embiid plays 68 games and that’s doubtful considering he’s missed 8 games already.

So it comes down to Giannis or Tatum. And the answer is easy. It’s Giannis. It’s lot just the seeding. Denver can be 1 seed with 55/57 wins and that won’t get it done. It’s the overall record Vs expectations for a 3rd straight mvp. 62 wins will get Jokic the mvp. I just don’t think that will happen.

Giannis will win it with 55-57 wins.

Tatum only wins it with 67-68 wins. That’s very hard to achieve.

Those are just my opinions.

Nba mvp are just about narratives. Do we really Believe Karl Malone was better than Jordan when he got those mvp. Nope.

I wouldn't count Durant out. Anyway it is too early, one injury, hot streak by some team could change a lot.

[Bob8]

This is why ESPN and the nba media are WOrSE than REALGM general board

This is on the front page of the nba page on ESPN.... top story

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

There is a story about dirks statue with a picture and a story about harden going back to Houston...again with a picture...and a story about Jokic and his 83rd triple double and no picture...just a link

While Jokic is pulling a Prime Michael Jeffery Jordan or Lebron Raymond James on a regular basis....

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-last-10-game-logs


Also anyone on this board that voted for Giannis or Luka or Tatum or anyone else in this poll are just being contrarian at this point...advanced stat, eye test and winning got Jokic lapping the field and we know it cause people keep posting the facts

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult. Many things can change in the West.

[ForeverTFC]

LeBron's 2010-2011 season was embarrassing underachievement. He started the year on Miami introduction with famous not 1, not 2, not 3, but...sitting next to arguably top 5 player Dwyane Wade, and top 20 player Chris Bosh. If you join (create) super-team expectations are super-high. The year before with Cleveland Cavaliers he won 61 games. In 2010-2011 he won 58 games, Heat was 2nd in East after Chicago Bulls. Bulls won 41 games in 2009-10, and made jump to 62 wins in 2010-11, led by Derrick Rose.
So to simplify for MVP people measure what you achieved, relative to expectations.

Edit: I agree that Nuggets have to have the best record in the NBA (not sure about number) to win it.

That’s really my point. Jokic would have to win and win big like 62 games to even get a third straight mvp.

It will go to Giannis or even Tatum before it goes to jokic for the 3rd time in a row.

KD there is too much drama and he won’t get it

Embiid would get some consideration but he misses too many games. Only way embiid wins is if the sixers get to 57-58 wins and embiid plays 68 games and that’s doubtful considering he’s missed 8 games already.

So it comes down to Giannis or Tatum. And the answer is easy. It’s Giannis. It’s lot just the seeding. Denver can be 1 seed with 55/57 wins and that won’t get it done. It’s the overall record Vs expectations for a 3rd straight mvp. 62 wins will get Jokic the mvp. I just don’t think that will happen.

Giannis will win it with 55-57 wins.

Tatum only wins it with 67-68 wins. That’s very hard to achieve.

Those are just my opinions.

Nba mvp are just about narratives. Do we really Believe Karl Malone was better than Jordan when he got those mvp. Nope.

I wouldn't count Durant out. Anyway it is too early, one injury, hot streak by some team could change a lot.

Yup, I think Durant can be a sneaky pick if folks don’t want to give to Jokic and Giannis. For some reason, the narrative for Tatum has really died down.

[AleksandarN]

This is why ESPN and the nba media are WOrSE than REALGM general board

This is on the front page of the nba page on ESPN.... top story

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

There is a story about dirks statue with a picture and a story about harden going back to Houston...again with a picture...and a story about Jokic and his 83rd triple double and no picture...just a link

While Jokic is pulling a Prime Michael Jeffery Jordan or Lebron Raymond James on a regular basis....

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-last-10-game-logs


Also anyone on this board that voted for Giannis or Luka or Tatum or anyone else in this poll are just being contrarian at this point...advanced stat, eye test and winning got Jokic lapping the field and we know it cause people keep posting the facts

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult.

People keep saying that it was an easy schedule. I beg to differ. The nuggets for the first two months had the most road games of any other team. They were barely home always on the road barely practiced.

[Bob8]

This is why ESPN and the nba media are WOrSE than REALGM general board

This is on the front page of the nba page on ESPN.... top story

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

There is a story about dirks statue with a picture and a story about harden going back to Houston...again with a picture...and a story about Jokic and his 83rd triple double and no picture...just a link

While Jokic is pulling a Prime Michael Jeffery Jordan or Lebron Raymond James on a regular basis....

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-last-10-game-logs


Also anyone on this board that voted for Giannis or Luka or Tatum or anyone else in this poll are just being contrarian at this point...advanced stat, eye test and winning got Jokic lapping the field and we know it cause people keep posting the facts

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult.

People keep saying that it was an easy schedule. I beg to differ. The nuggets for the first two months had the most road games of any other team. They were barely home always on the road barely practiced.

My point is that it's very difficult to predict what the final standings will look like. But some here are acting like we have already played vast majority of games. Difference between 1st and 11th are only 6 games.

I believe Jokic was the best till now, but if wining is crucial factor, everything can change very quickly.

[CobraCommander]

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult.

People keep saying that it was an easy schedule. I beg to differ. The nuggets for the first two months had the most road games of any other team. They were barely home always on the road barely practiced.

My point is that it's very difficult to predict what the final standings will look like. But some here are acting like we have already played vast majority of games. Difference between 1st and 11th are only 6 games.

I believe Jokic was the best till now, but if wining is crucial factor, everything can change very quickly.

Bob....Luka great but the writers don’t have Luka in the race and the writers decide...they not talking about Luka talent...they talking about Luka not winning more games...Tatum and Giannis ahead of Luka in mvp writer polls cause of wins....espn and the nba WISHES Luka was winning more so they didn’t have to suffer through another year of Lebron stories while Jokic wins more MVPs


This ain’t Lukas year...it just ain’t - or hasn’t been so far and there is nothing telling us Tatum or Giannis gonna win less or Jokic gonna win less and forget how to play great.... Luka is in 4th or 5th place right now in mvp voting with the media

[Bob8]

People keep saying that it was an easy schedule. I beg to differ. The nuggets for the first two months had the most road games of any other team. They were barely home always on the road barely practiced.

My point is that it's very difficult to predict what the final standings will look like. But some here are acting like we have already played vast majority of games. Difference between 1st and 11th are only 6 games.

I believe Jokic was the best till now, but if wining is crucial factor, everything can change very quickly.

Bob....Luka great but the writers don’t have Luka in the race and the writers decide...they not talking about Luka talent...they talking about Luka not winning more games...Tatum and Giannis ahead of Luka in mvp writer polls cause of wins....espn and the nba WISHES Luka was winning more so they didn’t have to suffer through another year of Lebron stories while Jokic wins more MVPs


This ain’t Lukas year...it just ain’t - or hasn’t been so far and there is nothing telling us Tatum or Giannis gonna win less or Jokic gonna win less and forget how to play great.... Luka is in 4th or 5th place right now in mvp voting with the media

And? We have 50 games more to go. Jokic has won 20 games and Luka 18 playing for their teams. Not exactly something that cannot be changed in next 50 games. Last year Mavs were 16/18 at this time, if I'm not mistaken, and finished 4th in the end. But yes, Mavs will need to win a game or two without Luka, like other teams are doing without their stars.

[CobraCommander]

My point is that it's very difficult to predict what the final standings will look like. But some here are acting like we have already played vast majority of games. Difference between 1st and 11th are only 6 games.

I believe Jokic was the best till now, but if wining is crucial factor, everything can change very quickly.

Bob....Luka great but the writers don’t have Luka in the race and the writers decide...they not talking about Luka talent...they talking about Luka not winning more games...Tatum and Giannis ahead of Luka in mvp writer polls cause of wins....espn and the nba WISHES Luka was winning more so they didn’t have to suffer through another year of Lebron stories while Jokic wins more MVPs


This ain’t Lukas year...it just ain’t - or hasn’t been so far and there is nothing telling us Tatum or Giannis gonna win less or Jokic gonna win less and forget how to play great.... Luka is in 4th or 5th place right now in mvp voting with the media

And? We have 50 games more to go. Jokic has won 20 games and Luka 18 playing for their teams. Not exactly something that cannot be changed in next 50 games. Last year Mavs were 16/18 at this time, if I'm not mistaken, and finished 4th in the end. But yes, Mavs will need to win a game or two without Luka, like other teams are doing without their stars.

So you got Luka ahead of Tatum, Giannis and JOKIC right now? 4 real?

[Bob8]

Bob....Luka great but the writers don’t have Luka in the race and the writers decide...they not talking about Luka talent...they talking about Luka not winning more games...Tatum and Giannis ahead of Luka in mvp writer polls cause of wins....espn and the nba WISHES Luka was winning more so they didn’t have to suffer through another year of Lebron stories while Jokic wins more MVPs


This ain’t Lukas year...it just ain’t - or hasn’t been so far and there is nothing telling us Tatum or Giannis gonna win less or Jokic gonna win less and forget how to play great.... Luka is in 4th or 5th place right now in mvp voting with the media

And? We have 50 games more to go. Jokic has won 20 games and Luka 18 playing for their teams. Not exactly something that cannot be changed in next 50 games. Last year Mavs were 16/18 at this time, if I'm not mistaken, and finished 4th in the end. But yes, Mavs will need to win a game or two without Luka, like other teams are doing without their stars.

So you got Luka ahead of Tatum, Giannis and JOKIC right now? 4 real?

No. I have Jokic, Tatum and then Luka. Giannis is 18/10 and Luka 18/13, not exactly a big difference, Luka better in more or less everything, Giannis having far better teammates. I don't see any reason for putting Giannis in front. But awards are not given to players right now, differences between players are not so huge at the moment, that we can make any kind of final predictions. There are almost 50 games left. Denver can be on 4th place in one week time. And if Mavs somehow finish in front of Denver in the end, it will be very close call between those 2.

[Cubbies2120]

This is why ESPN and the nba media are WOrSE than REALGM general board

This is on the front page of the nba page on ESPN.... top story

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

There is a story about dirks statue with a picture and a story about harden going back to Houston...again with a picture...and a story about Jokic and his 83rd triple double and no picture...just a link

While Jokic is pulling a Prime Michael Jeffery Jordan or Lebron Raymond James on a regular basis....

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-last-10-game-logs


Also anyone on this board that voted for Giannis or Luka or Tatum or anyone else in this poll are just being contrarian at this point...advanced stat, eye test and winning got Jokic lapping the field and we know it cause people keep posting the facts

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult. Many things can change in the West.

The Nuggets are one of the best home teams in the NBA, and only have 2 losses at home this year when Jokic plays. They've played 3 less home games than the Mavs, who are terrible on the road (5-11). Not saying things can't shift, but the Nuggets had a road-heavy schedule so far this season. When they took the #1 seed, they had only played 11 of 28 games at home.

[Bob8]

This is why ESPN and the nba media are WOrSE than REALGM general board

This is on the front page of the nba page on ESPN.... top story

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

There is a story about dirks statue with a picture and a story about harden going back to Houston...again with a picture...and a story about Jokic and his 83rd triple double and no picture...just a link

While Jokic is pulling a Prime Michael Jeffery Jordan or Lebron Raymond James on a regular basis....

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-last-10-game-logs


Also anyone on this board that voted for Giannis or Luka or Tatum or anyone else in this poll are just being contrarian at this point...advanced stat, eye test and winning got Jokic lapping the field and we know it cause people keep posting the facts

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult. Many things can change in the West.

The Nuggets are one of the best home teams in the NBA, and only have 2 losses at home this year when Jokic plays. They've played 3 less home games than the Mavs, who are terrible on the road (5-11). Not saying things can't shift, but the Nuggets had a road-heavy schedule so far this season. When they took the #1 seed, they had only played 11 of 28 games at home.

Sure, but this road heavy schedule should be at least evened out with far the easiest schedule, opponents wise.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

[HotRocks34]

Current MVP odds:

https://dknation.draftkings.com/2022/12/26/23526697/nba-mvp-race-2022-23-odds-picks-predictions-favorite-tatum-giannis-jokic-doncic-durant-embiid


Tatum......+250
Giannis....+330
Jokic.......+400
Luka.......+450
Durant.....+900
Embiid.....+1000


Wilt won his 3rd MVP in 1967, which was the year in which he won his first ring. That means Wilt was voted for his third MVP (1960, 1966, 1967) before he won his first title. The same situation happened with Moses Malone (1979, 1982, 1983; first title 1983) and LeBron (2009, 2010, 2012; first title 2012), where both players were voted their third MVP before winning their first title later that same season.

Could Jokic become the next player (4th in NBA history) to be voted a 3rd MVP trophy before winning his first ring?

We'll see.

[Cubbies2120]

About the winning argument, Mavs on the 8th place are only 4 games behind Denver, being 0:3 without Luka. Denver had far the easiest schedule in the Nba till now and Mavs 4th the most difficult. Many things can change in the West.

The Nuggets are one of the best home teams in the NBA, and only have 2 losses at home this year when Jokic plays. They've played 3 less home games than the Mavs, who are terrible on the road (5-11). Not saying things can't shift, but the Nuggets had a road-heavy schedule so far this season. When they took the #1 seed, they had only played 11 of 28 games at home.

Sure, but this road heavy schedule should be at least even out with far the easiest schedule, opponents wise.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Perfect, they'll get the hardest opponents at home, while facing the easy opponents on the road.

[Bob8]

The Nuggets are one of the best home teams in the NBA, and only have 2 losses at home this year when Jokic plays. They've played 3 less home games than the Mavs, who are terrible on the road (5-11). Not saying things can't shift, but the Nuggets had a road-heavy schedule so far this season. When they took the #1 seed, they had only played 11 of 28 games at home.

Sure, but this road heavy schedule should be at least even out with far the easiest schedule, opponents wise.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Perfect, they'll get the hardest opponents at home, while facing the easy opponents on the road.

And you don't believe that great home record is at least a little correlated with easy schedule at home?

[CobraCommander]

And? We have 50 games more to go. Jokic has won 20 games and Luka 18 playing for their teams. Not exactly something that cannot be changed in next 50 games. Last year Mavs were 16/18 at this time, if I'm not mistaken, and finished 4th in the end. But yes, Mavs will need to win a game or two without Luka, like other teams are doing without their stars.

So you got Luka ahead of Tatum, Giannis and JOKIC right now? 4 real?

No. I have Jokic, Tatum and then Luka. Giannis is 18/10 and Luka 18/13, not exactly a big difference, Luka better in more or less everything, Giannis having far better teammates. I don't see any reason for putting Giannis in front. But awards are not given to players right now, differences between players are not so huge at the moment, that we can make any kind of final predictions. There are almost 50 games left. Denver can be on 4th place in one week time. And if Mavs somehow finish in front of Denver in the end, it will be very close call between those 2.

Giannis hasn’t played with his starting 5 at all this year and the writers clearly and unanimously think Giannis is vastly superior to Luka...they still openly call Giannis the best player on earth (even after Jokic back to back) and Tatum the mvp...and they have been down on Luka because weight last year and defense this year. I’m just saying what I am hearing from the people with votes. It not my opinion-

To me Jokic is so much better than Luka or Tatum that it’s not close and the only thing Giannis has is his complete resume that includes doing everything and I mean everything of importance thus far...but if it’s not a life time achievement award it has to be Jokic - if it’s objectively the best player....jokic winning with and without his best team mates and his teammates having best years playing with him.

He is passing the final test of an mvp of making his mates better...

If Dallas wants Luka to stay, let alone win mvp, they need to upgrade the coach and roster - 1/3 of his career is over...

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2022/11/28/doncic-calls-antetokounmpo-the-best-player-in-the-nba-right-now/ Everyone disrespect Jokic

[Bob8]

So you got Luka ahead of Tatum, Giannis and JOKIC right now? 4 real?

No. I have Jokic, Tatum and then Luka. Giannis is 18/10 and Luka 18/13, not exactly a big difference, Luka better in more or less everything, Giannis having far better teammates. I don't see any reason for putting Giannis in front. But awards are not given to players right now, differences between players are not so huge at the moment, that we can make any kind of final predictions. There are almost 50 games left. Denver can be on 4th place in one week time. And if Mavs somehow finish in front of Denver in the end, it will be very close call between those 2.

Giannis hasn’t played with his starting 5 at all this year and the writers clearly and unanimously think Giannis is vastly superior to Luka...they still openly call Giannis the best player on earth (even after Jokic back to back) and Tatum the mvp...and they have been down on Luka because weight last year and defense this year. I’m just saying what I am hearing from the people with votes. It not my opinion-

To me Jokic is so much better than Luka or Tatum that it’s not close and the only thing Giannis has is his complete resume that includes doing everything and I mean everything of importance thus far...but if it’s not a life time achievement award it has to be Jokic - if it’s objectively the best player....jokic winning with and without his best team mates and his teammates having best years playing with him.

He is passing the final test of an mvp of making his mates better...

If Dallas wants Luka to stay, let alone win mvp, they need to upgrade the coach and roster - 1/3 of his career is over...

If you look at Vegas odds, you will see that first 4 are very close. And in the poll in this thread Giannis isn't exactly way ahead of Luka. You can have your opinion of course, like I can have my.

[CobraCommander]

The Nuggets are one of the best home teams in the NBA, and only have 2 losses at home this year when Jokic plays. They've played 3 less home games than the Mavs, who are terrible on the road (5-11). Not saying things can't shift, but the Nuggets had a road-heavy schedule so far this season. When they took the #1 seed, they had only played 11 of 28 games at home.

Sure, but this road heavy schedule should be at least even out with far the easiest schedule, opponents wise.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Perfect, they'll get the hardest opponents at home, while facing the easy opponents on the road.

Isn’t this kinda skewed in a way where if you beat a team their ranking goes down but if you lose it goes up....this a losing teams ranking is always gonna look like they played hard teams and a winning team js gojng to look like they played easy teams?

[Cubbies2120]

Sure, but this road heavy schedule should be at least even out with far the easiest schedule, opponents wise.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Perfect, they'll get the hardest opponents at home, while facing the easy opponents on the road.

And you don't believe that great home record is at least a little correlated with easy schedule at home?

No, I honestly don't think it plays that much into it if we look at a larger sample size - since 2019 (first year Jokic started showing up in MVP voting), the Nuggets are 120-50 at home. Excluding the year where #2 and #3 option (2 max contract salary spots) were on the bench in suits, the Nuggets are 97-32 at home (or 75.2% win clip). I'm only saying 'exclude that year' since (presumably) Murray and MPJ will play the rest of the year w/o significant injuries. They're on pace to win around 32 games at home this year, which is very doable given how dominant they are at home.

[Cubbies2120]

No. I have Jokic, Tatum and then Luka. Giannis is 18/10 and Luka 18/13, not exactly a big difference, Luka better in more or less everything, Giannis having far better teammates. I don't see any reason for putting Giannis in front. But awards are not given to players right now, differences between players are not so huge at the moment, that we can make any kind of final predictions. There are almost 50 games left. Denver can be on 4th place in one week time. And if Mavs somehow finish in front of Denver in the end, it will be very close call between those 2.

Giannis hasn’t played with his starting 5 at all this year and the writers clearly and unanimously think Giannis is vastly superior to Luka...they still openly call Giannis the best player on earth (even after Jokic back to back) and Tatum the mvp...and they have been down on Luka because weight last year and defense this year. I’m just saying what I am hearing from the people with votes. It not my opinion-

To me Jokic is so much better than Luka or Tatum that it’s not close and the only thing Giannis has is his complete resume that includes doing everything and I mean everything of importance thus far...but if it’s not a life time achievement award it has to be Jokic - if it’s objectively the best player....jokic winning with and without his best team mates and his teammates having best years playing with him.

He is passing the final test of an mvp of making his mates better...

If Dallas wants Luka to stay, let alone win mvp, they need to upgrade the coach and roster - 1/3 of his career is over...

If you look at Vegas odds, you will see that first 4 are very close. And in the poll in this thread Giannis isn't exactly way ahead of Luka. You can have your opinion of course, like I can have my.

Vegas odds had Jokic at +2900 about two weeks ago. He's trending significantly upwards.