Draymond: “European players have not caught the same flak of winning a championship as US players

[OkcSinceSGA]

Even if thats what he means. Whats wrong with that?

I don't think it's accurate.

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

Jokic didn’t team up with other superstars. Jokic doesn’t pump himself as “King” etc. Jokic recently turned 28. He’s also in a small market. It’s not remotely the same as LeBron or KD who had stacked teams, jumped to form super teams, called themselves the best player etc

[Ein Sof]

Lmao @ this thread

LeBron had his jerseys burned because he went to another team in free agency. And you guys are comparing that to... Dirk getting memed on after an all-time choke?

[chilluminati]

Jesus Draymond is dumb. Like, before this season started you could have probably fooled me into believing that he's smart and correct about most of his takes. But it's like 2022-23 rolled around and Dray's floodgate of bad takes and bad decisions hit harder than they ever have.

[iLLmatic860]

I don't think it's accurate.

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

Jokic didn’t team up with other superstars. Jokic doesn’t pump himself as “King” etc. Jokic recently turned 28. He’s also in a small market. It’s not remotely the same as LeBron or KD who had stacked teams, jumped to form super teams, called themselves the best player etc

Lebron and Kd were in small markets when they had pressure to win a chip. Which is exactly why they joined super teams.

Also Nuggets are #1 in west. Why doesnt he have expectations this year??Just dont hype up Jokic for winning 3 mvps if you not gonna put any expectations on him to win a championship

[CharityStripe34]

Embiid played 51 games or about 430 fewer minutes over the course of the season than Giannis. Still want to sit there and tell me he didn't deserve it over the guy who ultimately took 2nd because Philly won a whopping 3 more games? That's what we're going to say in that context but ignore it when it comes to Curry who's team limped into the play-in?

As far as revisionist history, "down by his standards" shouldn't discount you from the MVP conversation when that standard is still better than the other candidates. Again, this is the type of mental gymnastics I'm talking about to discount a guy from an MVP conversation, which hasn't necessarily been done with Jokic.

I'm confused. You use an argument for why Embiid and Curry didn't deserve it over Giannis to support why Jokic didn't deserve it over Giannis?

IIIRC, the 2021 MVP narrative for each of the players were as follows:
1) Embiid finally had a semi-healthy season and led Philly to the best record in the East. Still, his games missed was held against him.
2) Curry took a lottery team to the 8th seed and had a bonkers month of scoring to haul his team there. But the lower seed was held against him.
3) Jokic was consistently great throughout the whole year, missed the least games, and took his team to the 3rd seed despite losing Murray to a season-ending injury.
4) Giannis's case was dinged by the Bucks underperforming expectations, getting only the 3rd seed despite being mostly healthy, after being the 1st seed in each of the last two seasons.

There's a SUBSTANTIAL gap between three games at the top of the standings and the 9th overall seed, let's not act like context doesn't matter there. And again, how do you not see those narratives getting in the way/actually BEING the mental gymnastics used to discount him from an MVP race in 2021?

Embiid missed 30% of the season, but was still second in MVP voting. Again, Curry, 9 seed. I'm not going to argue the validity of Jokic's MVP, but Giannis being so far down the MVP ladder given the context of the players actually above him IS the argument here.

Curry being 3rd that year was ridiculous. And I love Steph, he's awesome. Putting up huge numbers on a poo-poo platter dragging them to the play-in is why we need an "Offensive Player of the Year" award alongside DPOY.

[CharityStripe34]

Lmao @ this thread

LeBron had his jerseys burned because he went to another team in free agency. And you guys are comparing that to... Dirk getting memed on after an all-time choke?

Not exactly equal cases. No one thought of Dirk as the unquestionable best player alive, in casual circles at least. But, yes, Dirk did get killed and ridiculed for losing to GS and losing to Miami. "Another soft Euro" and was quickly dismissed.

Goes to prove that crucifying star players for not winning all the time is bonkers.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

Jokic didn’t team up with other superstars. Jokic doesn’t pump himself as “King” etc. Jokic recently turned 28. He’s also in a small market. It’s not remotely the same as LeBron or KD who had stacked teams, jumped to form super teams, called themselves the best player etc

Lebron and Kd were in small markets when they had pressure to win a chip. Which is exactly why they joined super teams.

Also Nuggets are #1 in west. Why doesnt he have expectations this year??Just dont hype up Jokic for winning 3 mvps if you not gonna put any expectations on him to win a championship

Jokic is now at that point of title or bust, but prior he hasn’t been. Murray has been out in recent years, as has MPJ. He literally didn’t have the team to do anything. This year he probably does.

[DoctorX]

The reason guys like Jokic, Doncic, don't get criticized for not winning is they have never been in a position to win a title. This year will be the first year Jokic is in a position to win a title with the nugget being healthy. If he fails, he will get criticized much like Dirk, Giannis did when they failed to win during their title contention years.

The other reason guys like Lebron, KD, Curry, etc get criticized more for losing is because they are marketing 24/7 by the league and their sponsors. They also put themselves out there on social media while those Euro players don't. You have guys like Lebron and KD going back and forth with fans on social media while those Euros don't care about social media. It's like the reason why Kawhi is forgotten a lot of times by the media is because he doesn't use social media which allows him to escape facing criticism 24/7 like other American superstars. If he did put himself out there like KD and Lebron he would be getting a lot, but he doesn't.

Euros like to live a lifestyle under the radar. They are not really concerned about the media like American players are hence why they can deal with criticism and pressure much better than American players can.

[Ein Sof]

Lmao @ this thread

LeBron had his jerseys burned because he went to another team in free agency. And you guys are comparing that to... Dirk getting memed on after an all-time choke?

Not exactly equal cases. No one thought of Dirk as the unquestionable best player alive, in casual circles at least. But, yes, Dirk did get killed and ridiculed for losing to GS and losing to Miami. "Another soft Euro" and was quickly dismissed.

Goes to prove that crucifying star players for not winning all the time is bonkers.

What makes them so unequal? Besides that LeBron was a lot better and more liked, which are things that should've helped him avoid criticism...

Frankly, the fact that one title was enough for the critique to go away proves it wasn't all that scathing. LeBron won 4 and we still hear about how he's some kind of choking loser.

[NO-KG-AI]

Yea sure, if the media has proven anything, it’s biased towards foreign players vs US players. Yea, that’s it lmao.

[iLLmatic860]

Jokic didn’t team up with other superstars. Jokic doesn’t pump himself as “King” etc. Jokic recently turned 28. He’s also in a small market. It’s not remotely the same as LeBron or KD who had stacked teams, jumped to form super teams, called themselves the best player etc

Lebron and Kd were in small markets when they had pressure to win a chip. Which is exactly why they joined super teams.

Also Nuggets are #1 in west. Why doesnt he have expectations this year??Just dont hype up Jokic for winning 3 mvps if you not gonna put any expectations on him to win a championship

Jokic is now at that point of title or bust, but prior he hasn’t been. Murray has been out in recent years, as has MPJ. He literally didn’t have the team to do anything. This year he probably does.

Thank you! Thats all im trying to say. He should def have the expectations of a title now after 3 MVPS. Idk why Jokic fans are always getting extremely defensive. (I'm not talking about you) If anything i'm showing respect by even suggesting that he should be in the title or bust conversation.

[CharityStripe34]

Lmao @ this thread

LeBron had his jerseys burned because he went to another team in free agency. And you guys are comparing that to... Dirk getting memed on after an all-time choke?

Not exactly equal cases. No one thought of Dirk as the unquestionable best player alive, in casual circles at least. But, yes, Dirk did get killed and ridiculed for losing to GS and losing to Miami. "Another soft Euro" and was quickly dismissed.

Goes to prove that crucifying star players for not winning all the time is bonkers.

What makes them so unequal? Besides that LeBron was a lot better and more liked, which are things that should've helped him avoid criticism...

Frankly, the fact that one title was enough for the critique to go away proves it wasn't all that scathing. LeBron won 4 and we still hear about how he's some kind of choking loser.

In some ways LeBron is like this era's Wilt. Scrutinized massively for not winning every title and burdened with a ridiculous set of expectations. I wasn't insinuating Dirk got evenly or more scrutinized or killed for not winning initially.

[Hornet Mania]

The reason guys like Jokic, Doncic, don't get criticized for not winning is they have never been in a position to win a title. This year will be the first year Jokic is in a position to win a title with the nugget being healthy. If he fails, he will get criticized much like Dirk, Giannis did when they failed to win during their title contention years.

The other reason guys like Lebron, KD, Curry, etc get criticized more for losing is because they are marketing 24/7 by the league and their sponsors. They also put themselves out there on social media while those Euro players don't. You have guys like Lebron and KD going back and forth with fans on social media while those Euros don't care about social media. It's like the reason why Kawhi is forgotten a lot of times by the media is because he doesn't use social media which allows him to escape facing criticism 24/7 like other American superstars. If he did put himself out there like KD and Lebron he would be getting a lot, but he doesn't.

Euros like to live a lifestyle under the radar. They are not really concerned about the media like American players are hence why they can deal with criticism and pressure much better than American players can.

The point about Kawhi is excellent.

Of course winning as a Spur once in Toronto helps mitigate that as well, but even then he could be smeared with 'anyone can win on the 2014 Spurs' and 'only beat an injured team in 2019' yet he isn't. He's too boring for hot takes, media can't even be bothered to harp on how the LAC super team has yet to truly ever come together, and how they sent out SGA in the process.

The more you put yourself out there the bigger target you have on your back.

[balla4lyf23]

Stupid thing to say, but I DO think Jokic gets a lot less flak than Giannis did and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Giannis was more or less discounted from winning the 20-21 MVP because of his playoff failures while folks are ready to anoint Jokic for the third time and ignore his lack of success.

To be fair, we should've won that Raptors series. Kawhi or not Kawhi we could've closed them off in that overtime, or in that G7 at home. And Giannis didn't play very well by his standards, he was a bit rough to watch at times. I can't recall Jokic ever not playing well in the play offs, and half the time his best teammate was Barton (who got cut this year).

woulda, coulda, shoulda toronto earned that 'ship

[ken6199]

Dirk got a lot of flack until he won in 2011. Funny how the narrative changes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was seen as a soft Euro jump-shooting big that couldn't get it done when it mattered.

Yup Dirk basically ends this conversation right away. Dirk was a Euro who had top 25 all time talent and career. So he was a superstar on the court, so he had the lofty standards. And guess what was the dark cloud over Dirk's entire career up until 2011, he's a soft Euro who cant get it done in the playoffs. His 2011 championship drastically changed how people view his legacy, because up until that, ya he was the poster child of getting flak for not winning a championship.

Dirk's evaluation changing entirely after 2011 is what's wrong with basketball community. His 2011 win only serves one purpose - it consolidate that he is a top 25 player, and that's all it is. It shouldn't be "correcting" any views on him before 2011. Soft? What the heck does it even mean? What would we call KG if he never went to Boston, an empty stat guy? Dude was an MVP and 1st team / 1st team all defense regular before that.

Same reason I always hate those narratives of CP3 never sniffs conference finals, TMac cannot get past 1st round as the best player. Like WTF, did CP3 and Tmac make 500 attempts and fail? Injuries happen, sometimes they happen at the inconvenient time just like Steph can step on a slippery floor and tear his MCL, or Tmac happened to lose a series with Drew Gooden as the 2nd best player. Yep, people never talk about how amazing it was for them to first take 3 Ws off Detroit, or Clippers got the 3-1 lead over Rockets with CP3 sitting out the first 2 games. People act like Tmac, 7 time all nba, just because he never got past 1st round that means some other role player who played through cold in the finals is more of a winner than him.

Fast forward to today where tech companies are doing rounds of layoffs. In your news feed all you can read is "Google employer gets laid off when taking holiday in Maui", "Facebook employer gets laid off while breastfeeding a 2 month toddler". People start to believe that's all they do, like these tech giants only wait till someone starts taking maternity leave then lay them off just to get on the news.

Now back to Dirk. Did his 2011 win prove he can get it done? Absolutely. But more importantly, all those "soft euro jumpshooting big" crap shouldn't exist in the first place. I bet if Dirk had abandoned his shooting strength and opted to bang more down low, lost more games, missed playoffs, those guys would be calling him soft anyway.

[VanWest82]

Lmao @ this thread

LeBron had his jerseys burned because he went to another team in free agency. And you guys are comparing that to... Dirk getting memed on after an all-time choke?

Lebron hosted a special on national tv to break up with his hometown and then hosted another special to gloat about winning 7,8,9 championships before they'd done a thing. Dirk choked as a #1 seed. One of these things was intentional and malicious. The other was not.

[VanWest82]

Now back to Dirk. Did his 2011 win prove he can get it done? Absolutely. But more importantly, all those "soft euro jumpshooting big" crap shouldn't exist in the first place. I bet if Dirk had abandoned his shooting strength and opted to bang more down low, lost more games, missed playoffs, those guys would be calling him soft anyway.

But he was a soft, jump shooting Euro big, albeit a very talented one. And then he toughened up, worked on his post game, and it was that very post game (i.e. inside/outside threat) which allowed him to succeed against a murderer's row of playoff opponents as an unstoppable #1 option.

I'm not saying Dirk deserved all the flak he got pre-2011, but sometimes the generalized story is the actual story.

[ken6199]

Now back to Dirk. Did his 2011 win prove he can get it done? Absolutely. But more importantly, all those "soft euro jumpshooting big" crap shouldn't exist in the first place. I bet if Dirk had abandoned his shooting strength and opted to bang more down low, lost more games, missed playoffs, those guys would be calling him soft anyway.

But he was a soft, jump shooting Euro big, albeit a very talented one. And then he toughened up, worked on his post game, and it was that very post game (i.e. inside/outside threat) which allowed him to succeed against a murderer's row of playoff opponents as an unstoppable #1 option.

I'm not saying Dirk deserved all the flak he got pre-2011, but sometimes the generalized story is the actual story.

It's not really soft. It's not like Dirk chickend away from post play and compromised with jump hooting. Like almost every basketball player Dirk was young and skinny. Would people call Giannis soft when he first entered the league had him been white and with good range? I bet yes. Instead of calling him soft in his early days, why so few were saying Dirk was ahead of time as a pioneering shooting big? Dirk didn't get "tougher", instead he became "better" by bulking up and improving his post game and defense.

Dirk in his own words:

“I never really changed into a tough, physical player,” Nowitzki concluded. “I mean, I like to think I was mentally tough, but it’s not like I was out there elbowing cats on the rebound. It’s just not my style.”

[VanWest82]

Now back to Dirk. Did his 2011 win prove he can get it done? Absolutely. But more importantly, all those "soft euro jumpshooting big" crap shouldn't exist in the first place. I bet if Dirk had abandoned his shooting strength and opted to bang more down low, lost more games, missed playoffs, those guys would be calling him soft anyway.

But he was a soft, jump shooting Euro big, albeit a very talented one. And then he toughened up, worked on his post game, and it was that very post game (i.e. inside/outside threat) which allowed him to succeed against a murderer's row of playoff opponents as an unstoppable #1 option.

I'm not saying Dirk deserved all the flak he got pre-2011, but sometimes the generalized story is the actual story.

It's not really soft. It's not like Dirk chickend away from post play and compromised with jump hooting. Like almost every basketball player Dirk was young and skinny. Would people call Giannis soft when he first entered the league had him been white and with good range? I bet yes. Instead of calling him soft in his early days, why so few were saying Dirk was ahead of time as a pioneering shooting big? Dirk didn't get "tougher", instead he became "better" by bulking up and improving his post game and defense.

Dirk in his own words:

“I never really changed into a tough, physical player,” Nowitzki concluded. “I mean, I like to think I was mentally tough, but it’s not like I was out there elbowing cats on the rebound. It’s just not my style.”

Dirk was 32 when he won, and a decade removed from when he filled out as a man. We can argue about the language but when people say "soft jump shooter" what they mean is someone who primarily operates from the perimeter and whom you can stick a smaller player on to slow them down. That was Dirk before he decided to improve his post game. I think he absolutely got tougher later on, especially shooting off contact. Dirk can say what he wants but he was still primarily a perimeter player all the way into his late 20s. Let's not conflate having the strength to absorb contact and still make a fadeaway or jump hook with elbows or whatever.

[CharityStripe34]

This thread is proof that it would be entertaining as all hell to have a USA vs. World All-Star Game.