Jokic Making a lot of folks look dumb

[dygaction]

So why didn't the superior player get the MVP, if he had the superior season?

You know what? I'm too tired of the MVP conversation to further take part in it. I'm out of that.

Fair enough, but don't expect people to not respond when you say the "world " knows who the superior player is, only for it to be a lopsided MVP vote.

Besides stupid rusticism argument from likes of big perk, you yourself were in the herd of "Jokic does not deserve 3 MVPs in a row, let's give it to Embiid who has never won it"...

You may call it lopsided mvp vote for Embiid 915 vs Jokic 674, but the difference is smaller than what Embiid to Jokic over the past two years.

[nikster]

Of course THIS.

Response from fans of Jokic to statistics like this?

Crickets.

Not hard to see what the argument is. Yes Embiid is better defensively, the argument would be Jokic offenisve impact outweighs that.

That DFG% difference amounts to about 5 points a game. Its impressive. But In the 2nd round Jokic is averaging 7 more points on +8 TS%, and generates 17.5 more points off assists

5 points a game from just ones defensive FGA impact is pretty serious though, since that's not taking into account points prevented through other means (dreb, deterring attempts, deflections, charges, etc, etc). I wouldn't necessarily simply dismiss that if the conclusion that around 5 ppg is being taken away from the opponent by a guy contesting them, that's a lot if we simplify it to that.

I agree, that's why I said it's impressive. And I'm sure there's more impact like shots at the rim that were deterred completely.

Was just pushing back on the "crickets from Jokic fans" comment. Don't think it's enough to make up the gap of the extra 25 points Jokic is generating offensively

[Pelly24]

I'ma go even further. Jokic is better than KD ever was. I'll just say that. What separates Joker from everyone but LeBron (healthy) is that his play never drops off in the playoffs and he can win unexpected series/games all by himself. It's because he's the best playmaker in the league and he's capable of averaging 30 or so points per game on 63 TS%>>>> (he averaged 26 on 66 TS% the last 3 years, so projecting a bit). On offense, he can make literally every big play. He's like having an elite wing scorer *and* an elite playmaking point guard. He can control all phases of the game offensively. Defensively he's got some problems, but they're really not as bad as people say. Embiid needs a harden-like figure to get far in the playoffs. Jokic doesn't, because he *is* the harden-like figure creation wise. If you can't find a top 10 player playmaker/scorer to play with Embiid, you're probably screwed, since those are very hard to find ultimately. But if you need to have a good defense? You can get enough pieces to make it adequate enough.

That's my argument for Jokic being better, besides the obvious points like him playing better in the playoffs, having better advanced stats across the board, doing more with less, being more durable, all that.

[damanick10]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

[QingJames]

And my guess is many of those MVP voters - while acknowledging all of Jokic's amazing offensive talents - are also acknowledging what the entire basketball world is seeing in these playoffs, which is that Embiid is a true two-way player, and one of the best defensive players in the game. Voters know this. Fellow players - who have to try to score the ball on him - know this (this is probably why Embiid got twice as many votes as Jokic in the poll The Athletic took). And while fans of Jokic try to point to their "basket of acronyms" that would suggest that Jokic is a superior defensive player, numbers such as the stat I posted earlier just confirm what our eyes tell us when we watch the two players - Embiid impacts a game defensively in a way that Jokic simply cannot.

If Embiid is such a transcendent defensive player why has his team been worse on defense than the Nuggets this postseason?

Really? This is your response? You take the ACTUAL STATISTICS of shots at the rim - where it is basically Embiid's world - and throw them out, and come back with generic 30,000-foot numbers to argue your position?

Really?

Maybe the numbers are different because Maxey gets picked on defensively. Maybe the numbers are different because the Sixers bench players (like Niang) are crappy defenders. There are literally a ZILLION reasons why the Sixers defense has not been good at times that have NOTHING TO DO WITH EMBIID.

I am out. Have fun, guys.

My point is pretty simply this:

Jokic, as a transcendent offensive player, is clearly having his transcendence on that end show in the Nuggets having the second best offense of the post season so far.

Embiid is supposed to be as transcendent on defense as Jokic is on offense, right? That’s the whole argument for him, given that he’s not even sniffing the offensive impact of Jokic. So why isn’t Embiid’s transcendent defense translating to his team being elite on that end? They’ve been the second worst defense of all the teams remaining in the postseason…

[QingJames]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

[Cubbies2120]

You know what? I'm too tired of the MVP conversation to further take part in it. I'm out of that.

Fair enough, but don't expect people to not respond when you say the "world " knows who the superior player is, only for it to be a lopsided MVP vote.

Jokic finished 2nd for MVP voting and significantly raised his game in the playoffs, as he usually does.

In fact, his career PLAYOFF averages (where defenses are much tougher) are higher than Embiid's regular season averages. Embiid "The best scoring Center" has a career playoff high of 40 pts. Jokic eclipsed that twice this playoffs alone. These playoffs are proving once again that one player steps up big time while the other...

Jokic in these playoffs has not been on another planet compared to Embiid, he has been in a different galaxy. I'm glad it's happening in the playoffs where every game is televised.

[dhsilv2]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

It's like when people tried to compare Kobe to Jordan. Both are great, but Kobe isn't Jordan. Embiid and Jokic are both awesome players, but Jokic is on a different level.

[Cubbies2120]

Got to be best player on a championship team to be considered the best in the world. And not a below average defensive player. Stop trying to disrespect the winners.

This

If he is below average, who are the 225 better defensive players than him? He would have to be in the bottom 50% to be "below average", so I'm curious who you think they are.

[Cubbies2120]

Which folks look dumb? Embiid fans who wanted him to win MVP over Jokic? I don't think anyone doubted Jokic.

Even fans of Embiid like me respect Jokic's game. The guy is literally a walking triple-double. While I think that Embiid's better rim protection (which was in clear evidence last night against the Celtics) is a differentiating factor between the two players, that does not mean that I don't respect Jokic's game. It is impossible not to.

Here's hoping for a Sixers-Nuggets finals.

See, posts like this one make people angry. No, rim protection is not the only differentiating factor, no matter how much you guys push that agenda.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

They talk about rim protection as if Jokic has NONE when it matters. Didn't he just have 3 gamewinning / gamesaving blocks last season alone? I'm perfectly fine with Jokic giving up points at the rim while avoiding foul trouble because the alternative results in a loss.

The Nuggets had the #1 clutch defense for a good part of the reason. Hard to believe that's possible when Jokic is such a poor rim defender! Maybe teams should just drive for free points amirite?!?!?

[bebopdeluxe]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

I think Embiid deserved to be the MVP. I think he deserved it last year as well. But I don't come on this board and make ridiculously condescending statements like "it's clear to ANYONE approaching this objectively" that Embiid is the "comfortably superior player".

For EVERYBODY on this board who actually wants this smackfest to end...for EVERYBODY on this board who wants "Exhibit A" as to why posters like me are sick and tired of Jokic stans, read this guy's attitude.

[Bergmaniac]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

Yes, they are.

[bebopdeluxe]

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

Yes, they are.

So, why then did they pick Embiid? Racism? Embiid's Twitter game? What is it?

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

[Ambrose]

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

Yes, they are.

So, why then did they pick Embiid? Racism? Embiid's Twitter game? What is it?

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

Voter fatigue and people didn't want him to win three in a row. Otherwise, he wins MVP pretty handily this season.

[ty 4191]

I thought the advanced stat heads said that PER was a useless metric?

Eyeatoma, respond to this:

Then don't even use advanced statistics.

Jokic:

Name the other players that have averaged 27.2/11.8/6.9, career, in the playoffs. Min 25 games played, let's say. Low threshold.

Name the other players that have averaged 30.6/13.1/9.5 for a playoff run. Say, even, 5 games minimum. Very low threshold.

You can't respond. You have nothing. Zero response from you when you (regularly) get owned in this ongoing debate, over, and over.

Embiid Game Score for his career (51 playoff games): Average of 18.1 (18th all time among players with 50 games played)

Jokic Game Score for his career (58 playoff games): Average of 23.8 (only Michael Jordan has a higher average Game Score in NBA history)

Order of magnitude of difference. Jokic>>>>>>>Embiid in the playoffs.

And, Jokic>>>Embiid as a player, overall, over the course of their careers.

https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/game-score-calculator/

[bebopdeluxe]

Yes, they are.

So, why then did they pick Embiid? Racism? Embiid's Twitter game? What is it?

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

Voter fatigue and people didn't want him to win three in a row. Otherwise, he wins MVP pretty handily this season.

People keep saying "voter fatigue" and people didn't want him to win three in a row, but that is like Trump saying the 2020 election was "stolen". If you don't have facts to support your case, then its just a bunch of words.

[Bergmaniac]

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

Yes, they are.

So, why then did they pick Embiid? Racism? Embiid's Twitter game? What is it?

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

The All-Star game? An exhibiton game no player has taken seriously in the last 15 years or so? Is that supposed to prove anything?

I haven't watched this chuckfest since 2017, but looking at his stats, Jokic really don't care about it either (he barely takes any shots when he plays), so no wonder Embiid gets picked before him. But so what, it's an exhibition game chuck fest.

[Ambrose]

So, why then did they pick Embiid? Racism? Embiid's Twitter game? What is it?

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

Voter fatigue and people didn't want him to win three in a row. Otherwise, he wins MVP pretty handily this season.

People keep saying "voter fatigue" and people didn't want him to win three in a row, but that is like Trump saying the 2020 election was "stolen". If you don't have facts to support your case, then its just a bunch of words.

You can bury your head in the sand all you want. Doesn't change that it's true. He won the last two MVPs over Embiid while having worse seasons than this one. Swept Embiid in every advanced stat, led his team to the 1-seed, better record than Embiid when he played, his team was worse when he didn't, better impact numbers, etc. Everyone knows this was a narrative driven MVP. They happen from time to time, it is what it is.

[ty 4191]

The title of this thread is exhausting.

But you don't need to be in here.

Tell that to everyone who comes in to complain when there is an Embiid thread.

Every "Embiid Fapping Thread" is started by you on this board, so, you bring it on yourself. Your fixation/total obsession with the guy is paranormal. You're blinded to every other superstar and you're a Stan in the purest sense of the term.

Lowest And 1 to post ratio of any member with 20,000+ posts.

That speaks volumes.

[QingJames]

Man this thread is rough... can't we all just agree that both are legendary players that have much different game styles? Joker has Embiid beat on Offense, and Embiid has Joker beat on defense. Stats are stats but we all have eyes.

We can’t agree, because it’s clear to anyone approaching the debate objectively that Jokic has been and continues to be the comfortably superior player.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. Why did the PLAYERS pick Embiid by a 2 to 1 margin if this is SO "objectively true"? Why is Embiid ALWAYS the first pick in the All-Star draft as opposed to Jokic (who, I think was the LAST person picked)? Are NBA players - and NBA All-Stars like LeBron, KD and Steph - just idiots who simply aren't "approaching the debate objectively"? Huh?

I think Embiid deserved to be the MVP. I think he deserved it last year as well. But I don't come on this board and make ridiculously condescending statements like "it's clear to ANYONE approaching this objectively" that Embiid is the "comfortably superior player".

For EVERYBODY on this board who actually wants this smackfest to end...for EVERYBODY on this board who wants "Exhibit A" as to why posters like me are sick and tired of Jokic stans, read this guy's attitude.

If you’re resorting to the “who do players prefer” argument you’re really reaching. Time and again when these polls come out the players ability to properly evaluate the impact and skill of certain players is wildly inaccurate.