Woj: Hawks Trading John Collins to the Utah Jazz for Rudy Gay, 2RP

[jasonxxx102]

I don't understand why Utah would accept that without a FRP attached. 78m in remaining salary for a guy who isn't going to help you win anything is a huge amount of money to throw away. I wonder if this is the first part of a 3way deal that sends some more stuff to Utah to cover the salary dump, if not, I think it's a bad trade for the Jazz.

Salary matching for a star trade in the future

................ No.

The Jazz could just sign random role players to huge one year deals and that would be much more appealing for a star trade.

This narrative makes no sense.

uh... this is literally how the league works. Why do you think Bertans keeps getting traded? Not because of his skill, because his salary is a great filler piece.

You need bad players on expensive deals to make the money work in star trades.

[HadAnEffectHere]

Salary matching for a star trade in the future

................ No.

The Jazz could just sign random role players to huge one year deals and that would be much more appealing for a star trade.

This narrative makes no sense.

uh... this is literally how the league works. Why do you think Bertans keeps getting traded? Not because of his skill, because his salary is a great filler piece.

You need bad players on expensive deals to make the money work in star trades.

................ No you don't? What are you talking about?

Literally what is stopping the Jazz from instead signing Lonnie Walker IV to a 1/15, Cam Reddish to a 1/15, and then using those guys as salary filler in a star trade?

..... Rebuilding teams would obviously prefer those one year deals.

This is really bad anti-logic.

What bad contracts were traded in the last few star deals?

Beal for expiring CP3 and expiring Shamet
Mitchell for Markkanen (3/48), Sexton (4/64, this was a sign-and-trade to make the money match)
Gobert for Kessler (4/12), Beasley (expiring), Vanderbilt (2/6), Beverley (expiring)
Harden for Ben Simmons (Ben Simmons ended up having a horrible contract, but this was not the assumption the Nets made as they got nothing back other than Simmons)
Durant for Mikal Bridges (best contract in the league), Cam Johnson (expiring), Crowder (expiring)
Kyrie for Spencer Dinwiddie (2/40), Dorian Finney Smith (2/25)
Harden for Jarret Allen (expiring traded for Dante Exum for some reason????), Caris Levert (traded for Oladipo for some reason???)

Where are the bad contracts

[jasonxxx102]

................ No.

The Jazz could just sign random role players to huge one year deals and that would be much more appealing for a star trade.

This narrative makes no sense.

uh... this is literally how the league works. Why do you think Bertans keeps getting traded? Not because of his skill, because his salary is a great filler piece.

You need bad players on expensive deals to make the money work in star trades.

................ No you don't? What are you talking about?

Literally what is stopping the Jazz from instead signing Lonnie Walker IV to a 1/15, Cam Reddish to a 1/15, and then using those guys as salary filler in a star trade?

..... Rebuilding teams would obviously prefer those one year deals.

This is really bad anti-logic.

because that's dumb?

Is this your first year following the NBA?

[HadAnEffectHere]

uh... this is literally how the league works. Why do you think Bertans keeps getting traded? Not because of his skill, because his salary is a great filler piece.

You need bad players on expensive deals to make the money work in star trades.

................ No you don't? What are you talking about?

Literally what is stopping the Jazz from instead signing Lonnie Walker IV to a 1/15, Cam Reddish to a 1/15, and then using those guys as salary filler in a star trade?

..... Rebuilding teams would obviously prefer those one year deals.

This is really bad anti-logic.

because that's dumb?

Is this your first year following the NBA?

Why would that be dumb if you just want salary filler. You literally are making no sense to try to backfill a really stupid fantasy.

You have created an entire narrative that has... basically zero examples of having ever happened?

What star recently has been traded for a bad contract that was known at the time to be a bad contract?

[jasonxxx102]

................ No you don't? What are you talking about?

Literally what is stopping the Jazz from instead signing Lonnie Walker IV to a 1/15, Cam Reddish to a 1/15, and then using those guys as salary filler in a star trade?

..... Rebuilding teams would obviously prefer those one year deals.

This is really bad anti-logic.

because that's dumb?

Is this your first year following the NBA?

Why would that be dumb if you just want salary filler. You literally are making no sense to try to backfill a really stupid fantasy.

You have created an entire narrative that has... basically zero examples of having ever happened?

Team gives up nothing to get a below average player on a horrible contract. You think they traded for John Collins because they like him so much?

Jazz are multiple years and stars away from contending so they can keep collins for a couple years and he becomes a very valuable expiring deal.

This is like so basic and happens all the time

[HadAnEffectHere]

because that's dumb?

Is this your first year following the NBA?

Why would that be dumb if you just want salary filler. You literally are making no sense to try to backfill a really stupid fantasy.

You have created an entire narrative that has... basically zero examples of having ever happened?

Team gives up nothing to get a below average player on a horrible contract. You think they traded for John Collins because they like him so much?

Jazz are multiple years and stars away from contending so they can keep collins for a couple years and he becomes a very valuable expiring deal.

This is like so basic and happens all the time

1. Do you have any examples of a team intentionally acquiring a bad contract and then trading that contract later for a star? Like, any.
2. ........... You know what is more valuable than an expiring deal? Uhhh, cap space itself.

You are very confident about a strategy that has never happened and makes no practical sense.

[Ball4life32]

I'll never understand why teams overpay guys that they don't really want only to trade them for pennies on the dollar right after. I mean they've been trying to trade this guy from the moment he signed his deal. Hope he can have a breakout season this year

People realize Collins hasn’t played as well since the hawks gave him the extension right? I think part of it has to do with his finger injury but….

Collins last 4 years

22/10 on 66 TS% (40% from 3)

17/7 on 65 TS% (40% from 3) 2nd leading scoring on ECF tm

16/8 on 61 TS% (37% from 3)

13/7 on 59 TS% (29% from 3)

Plus even after the trade the hawks are potentially still 10 deep with a fat tpe. Collins was also a poor fit with Capela. I do hope he can rebound in Utah but worry about his injuries. (finger, foot)

Finally atlanta accepts what Collin's value actually is

Didn’t I read something at the deadline that they wanted a good young prospect and a first rounder for Collins? Yikes

Nope that rumor was over a year old.

[jasonxxx102]

Why would that be dumb if you just want salary filler. You literally are making no sense to try to backfill a really stupid fantasy.

You have created an entire narrative that has... basically zero examples of having ever happened?

Team gives up nothing to get a below average player on a horrible contract. You think they traded for John Collins because they like him so much?

Jazz are multiple years and stars away from contending so they can keep collins for a couple years and he becomes a very valuable expiring deal.

This is like so basic and happens all the time

1. Do you have any examples of a team intentionally acquiring a bad contract and then trading that contract later for a star? Like, any.
2. ........... You know what is more valuable than an expiring deal? Uhhh, cap space itself.

You are very confident about a strategy that has never happened and makes no practical sense.

yes, no team has ever used a bad contract to match salary in a trade

welcome to your first year of NBA fandom

[HadAnEffectHere]

Team gives up nothing to get a below average player on a horrible contract. You think they traded for John Collins because they like him so much?

Jazz are multiple years and stars away from contending so they can keep collins for a couple years and he becomes a very valuable expiring deal.

This is like so basic and happens all the time

1. Do you have any examples of a team intentionally acquiring a bad contract and then trading that contract later for a star? Like, any.
2. ........... You know what is more valuable than an expiring deal? Uhhh, cap space itself.

You are very confident about a strategy that has never happened and makes no practical sense.

yes, no team has ever used a bad contract to match salary in a trade

welcome to your first year of NBA fandom

..... What team has *intentionally* acquired bad salary to later use in a star trade.

Give....... Literally one example.

[jasonxxx102]

1. Do you have any examples of a team intentionally acquiring a bad contract and then trading that contract later for a star? Like, any.
2. ........... You know what is more valuable than an expiring deal? Uhhh, cap space itself.

You are very confident about a strategy that has never happened and makes no practical sense.

yes, no team has ever used a bad contract to match salary in a trade

welcome to your first year of NBA fandom

..... What team has *intentionally* acquired bad salary to later use in a star trade.

Give....... Literally one example.

The clippers did a S&T deal with Danilo Gallinari who they later traded as part of the Paul George deal.

[dautjazz]

Collin Sexton / Jordan Clarkson
Talen Horton-Tucker / Keyontae George
Lauri Markkanen / Ochai Agbaji / Bryce Sensabaugh
John Collins / Taylor Hendricks / Simone Fontecchio
Walker Kessler / Damian Jones

Upgrade Sexton/THT and that team is serious trouble.

Considering we basically completely reconstructed our roster (only Clarkson would remain if he stays), I think we've a pretty damn good job in just a year of rebuilding. Like you said, our backcourt needs some work but our front court is basically set.

[dautjazz]

i think to fully evaluate this - we need to wait and see what atlanta gets using that 25 mil trade exception.

That and give the Collins a season in Utah as well to see if he can bounce back or not. Eventually his finger should heal, becomes a matter of fit, and does he have that fire now that he got paid.

[whatisacenter]

Collin Sexton / Jordan Clarkson
Talen Horton-Tucker / Keyontae George
Lauri Markkanen / Ochai Agbaji / Bryce Sensabaugh
John Collins / Taylor Hendricks / Simone Fontecchio
Walker Kessler / Damian Jones

Upgrade Sexton/THT and that team is serious trouble.

Considering we basically completely reconstructed our roster (only Clarkson would remain if he stays), I think we've a pretty damn good job in just a year of rebuilding. Like you said, our backcourt needs some work but our front court is basically set.

Yep, Lauri turned out to be an amazing get! Like your young coach too!

[CpttCanada]

This is the year that perennial trade candidates will actually get traded. Myles Turner and Buddy Hield to Lakers next. Stay tuned.

I think Pascal is next out the door. Probably to Atlanta.

For what? I don’t want to be rude but aren’t the Hawks completely broke both talent and pick wise? How in the heck would they afford Pascal, what could they possibly offer for him? There is no way that the Raptors want Trae Young.

[Ball4life32]

This is the year that perennial trade candidates will actually get traded. Myles Turner and Buddy Hield to Lakers next. Stay tuned.

I think Pascal is next out the door. Probably to Atlanta.

For what? I don’t want to be rude but aren’t the Hawks completely broke both talent and pick wise? How in the heck would they afford Pascal, what could they possibly offer for him? There is no way that the Raptors want Trae Young.

Go check the Raptors board… there are a bunch of proposals with multiple different hawks young players included. Also hawks also have their 1st and potentially Kings 1st next yr. Not to mention they would never trade locked up Trae for expiring Siakam anyway.

[Johnny Bball]

I don't understand why Utah would accept that without a FRP attached. 78m in remaining salary for a guy who isn't going to help you win anything is a huge amount of money to throw away. I wonder if this is the first part of a 3way deal that sends some more stuff to Utah to cover the salary dump, if not, I think it's a bad trade for the Jazz.

Salary matching for a star trade in the future

................ No.

The Jazz could just sign random role players to huge one year deals and that would be much more appealing for a star trade.

This narrative makes no sense.

They don't have the roster spots.

[HadAnEffectHere]

Salary matching for a star trade in the future

................ No.

The Jazz could just sign random role players to huge one year deals and that would be much more appealing for a star trade.

This narrative makes no sense.

They don't have the roster spots.

So, if the Jazz didn't make this trade, they had the expirings of:

Rudy Gay-6.2m
THT-11m
Kelly Olynyk-12.2m

And could sign like Westbrook to a 1/20 with their cap space.

That is.... As much salary matching as you would ever need? The Jazz can take in a contract of near 37m with just their three hypothetical expirings and could take in 62m if they signed a player to 1/20.

[D21]

I'll never understand why teams overpay guys that they don't really want only to trade them for pennies on the dollar right after. I mean they've been trying to trade this guy from the moment he signed his deal. Hope he can have a breakout season this year

People realize Collins hasn’t played as well since the hawks gave him the extension right? I think part of it has to do with his finger injury but….

Collins last 4 years

22/10 on 66 TS% (40% from 3)

17/7 on 65 TS% (40% from 3) 2nd leading scoring on ECF tm

16/8 on 61 TS% (37% from 3)

13/7 on 59 TS% (29% from 3)

Plus even after the trade the hawks are potentially still 10 deep with a fat tpe. Collins was also a poor fit with Capela. I do hope he can rebound in Utah but worry about his injuries. (finger, foot)

Finally atlanta accepts what Collin's value actually is

Didn’t I read something at the deadline that they wanted a good young prospect and a first rounder for Collins? Yikes

Nope that rumor was over a year old.

He was able to played as well as previous years, but he didn't get the ball, or not like it should be, which is different than overall not playing as well while having the same role and touches, right?

There's a lack of logic when you say "...I think part of it has to do with his finger injury but…" and use the whole seasons stats, why?
because the injury happened in the last part of regular season one year ago, so has affected his season %, and it took months to get better, so it affected also this last season, that's why these last two seasons are specific

Example: Collins shot 29% this last season, but it was actually:
- worst than 29% from the start to end of February
- almost 38% since beginning of March

Technically, when healthy or almost healthy, he's still around 40%

Presented like you did, he has a far lower value than presented like I did (looking at the impact of his injury).
If Collins had stopped playing and got surgery as soon as needed instead of trying to help his team, he would have not played for a moment, and would have avoided the months with a bad 3pts %

Regarding the poor fit with Capela, yes, but why absolutely trading him and not Capela?
Collins is a bad fit with Capela, but Capela is a bad fit with Collins AND with this team who need to run, run and run, and create spacing as much as they can, to try to reach their offensive potential.
Capela is not super quick at getting back from the opponent basket to under his basket, while a stretch 5 can recover faster when he's creating threat from outside of the paint, it would help fastbreak and transition defense (especially when your PG is not a defense king).

This team would have been better trading Capela and getting a stretch 5 than trading for Murray
They lost spacing with Huerter and Gallo, and got a less natural shooter in Murray, while still playing with two centers not able to hit 3pts shots (it might change for Okongwu next season as he's working on it).
It was stupid from the star

Collins with a stretch 5 would be able to play pick'n'roll and cut to the basket/get lob as he did before Capela came in, and also when Capela was injured.

And the best part of it? Defense
Hawks had their best defense Vs BOS when Collins was on the floor, and were playing at the level of BOS (Def Net rating confirms it)
When he was not on the floor, the defense was bad
So even if not used correctly, he was still having impact, far more than Capela or Murray (who just played with Trae like trying to be the best stats pair of the league instead of making this team win, they took 45 shots per game Vs BOS, and it was not working, they got bad Net rating
Collins had a better impact without Capela, and Young had a better impact without Murray (not talking about individual stats, but real impact on the game)

Yes, Hawks are now under the Luxury Tax, getting back the non-tax payer MLE, and a TPE, but they didn't fix some problems on the court, and have yet to prove they want to win by using at least the MLE or the TPE to improve the roster, but with players that fit with Young if he's the one they want to keep.

At least, they didn't make the stupidity to trade Bogi who was their best Net rating in the playoffs, way better than the other, and has a friendly contract

[Ball4life32]

I'll never understand why teams overpay guys that they don't really want only to trade them for pennies on the dollar right after. I mean they've been trying to trade this guy from the moment he signed his deal. Hope he can have a breakout season this year

People realize Collins hasn’t played as well since the hawks gave him the extension right? I think part of it has to do with his finger injury but….

Collins last 4 years

22/10 on 66 TS% (40% from 3)

17/7 on 65 TS% (40% from 3) 2nd leading scoring on ECF tm

16/8 on 61 TS% (37% from 3)

13/7 on 59 TS% (29% from 3)

Plus even after the trade the hawks are potentially still 10 deep with a fat tpe. Collins was also a poor fit with Capela. I do hope he can rebound in Utah but worry about his injuries. (finger, foot)

Didn’t I read something at the deadline that they wanted a good young prospect and a first rounder for Collins? Yikes

Nope that rumor was over a year old.

He was able to played as well as previous years, but he didn't get the ball, or not like it should be, which is different than overall not playing as well while having the same role and touches, right?

There's a lack of logic when you say "...I think part of it has to do with his finger injury but…" and use the whole seasons stats, why?
because the injury happened in the last part of regular season one year ago, so has affected his season %, and it took months to get better, so it affected also this last season, that's why these last two seasons are specific

Example: Collins shot 29% this last season, but it was actually:
- worst than 29% from the start to end of February
- almost 38% since beginning of March

Technically, when healthy or almost healthy, he's still around 40%

Presented like you did, he has a far lower value than presented like I did (looking at the impact of his injury).
If Collins had stopped playing and got surgery as soon as needed instead of trying to help his team, he would have not played for a moment, and would have avoided the months with a bad 3pts %

Regarding the poor fit with Capela, yes, but why absolutely trading him and not Capela?
Collins is a bad fit with Capela, but Capela is a bad fit with Collins AND with this team who need to run, run and run, and create spacing as much as they can, to try to reach their offensive potential.
Capela is not super quick at getting back from the opponent basket to under his basket, while a stretch 5 can recover faster when he's creating threat from outside of the paint, it would help fastbreak and transition defense (especially when your PG is not a defense king).

This team would have been better trading Capela and getting a stretch 5 than trading for Murray
They lost spacing with Huerter and Gallo, and got a less natural shooter in Murray, while still playing with two centers not able to hit 3pts shots (it might change for Okongwu next season as he's working on it).
It was stupid from the star

Collins with a stretch 5 would be able to play pick'n'roll and cut to the basket/get lob as he did before Capela came in, and also when Capela was injured.

And the best part of it? Defense
Hawks had their best defense Vs BOS when Collins was on the floor, and were playing at the level of BOS (Def Net rating confirms it)
When he was not on the floor, the defense was bad
So even if not used correctly, he was still having impact, far more than Capela or Murray (who just played with Trae like trying to be the best stats pair of the league instead of making this team win, they took 45 shots per game Vs BOS, and it was not working, they got bad Net rating
Collins had a better impact without Capela, and Young had a better impact without Murray (not talking about individual stats, but real impact on the game)

Yes, Hawks are now under the Luxury Tax, getting back the non-tax payer MLE, and a TPE, but they didn't fix some problems on the court, and have yet to prove they want to win by using at least the MLE or the TPE to improve the roster, but with players that fit with Young if he's the one they want to keep.

At least, they didn't make the stupidity to trade Bogi who was their best Net rating in the playoffs, way better than the other, and has a friendly contract

Yeah I really meant to say Collins didnt play as well last year. It wasn’t just his stats but all his analytics went from positive to big negative. The previous 2 seasons his numbers were only down because his usage went down (mainly bc of his fit with Capela changed his role) but he still had great impact and was underrated imo. Hawks don’t make ECF without him. Actually…. it was in the 21-22 season when he got Covid, then had the finger + foot injury when his play declined….he played like a top 30-35 player early in that season before Covid too. He did shoot better late this past season but his stats still didn’t go up a ton. If he is actually healthy though and his finger isn’t messed up permanently he could be a beast for the Jazz but we’ll see. I’m assuming they think it is because I agree and wouldn’t of traded him if he could get back to his old level where like I said was underrated.

[Pointgod]

Why doesn’t Collins get that finger fixed? It’s obviously affecting his shooting and god damn it’s brutal to look at.