What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

Moderators: KingDavid, cupcakesnake, Domejandro, ken6199, infinite11285, Clav, Dirk, bwgood77, bisme37, zimpy27

Taj FTW
Starter
Posts: 2,060
And1: 2,851
Joined: Oct 28, 2022

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#181 » by Taj FTW » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:00 am

Hitachi77 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:
Let’s go through the list:

2007: took an insane performance from LeBron to get to the finals, his team was overmatched in the finals

2011: I will give you this one of course, they lost to Dallas as a favorite.

2014: This one kind of a wash, they lost as a slight underdog.

2015: lost his 2nd and 3rd best players to injury, still took the Warriors to 6

2017-18: completely overmatched, KD Warriors

Jordan has won as a favorite every time, and lost as an underdog every time. LeBron has often won as an underdog, in many of those runs through the east, and a few times lost as a favorite.

That finals streak is an argument in Lebron’s favor, anyone saying anything otherwise is being silly or biased.


Overcame the Pistons that one series otherwise when were they an underdog and won? You used the word “often” during that weak LEastern Conference era? Warriors too, right? When Steph was dinged, Bogut was out as moron Draymond ’kicked’ the series to them? If you are going to call out the weakened state of the Cavs in 2015, then you must also recognize injury also helped deliver Lebron’s greatest achievement.


2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

2008: had the Celtics on the ropes with that scrub of a Cavs team

2012: they were underdogs vs the Thunder

2016: I’ll admit, this win it very overrated and talked about way too much, and was aided by injuries and suspensions, like you mentioned, but still worth a note

2018: they were underdogs vs the Raptors, can’t remember if they were underdogs vs the Celtics in the series, but they were in game 7

The injury/suspension excuse for 2016 is bogus. Kevin Love got a concussion and was so horrible after that he was an overall negative. You might as well say he missed the series, or even worse, he hurt his team.
Hitachi77
Rookie
Posts: 1,035
And1: 818
Joined: Apr 22, 2021

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#182 » by Hitachi77 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:20 am

Taj FTW wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
Overcame the Pistons that one series otherwise when were they an underdog and won? You used the word “often” during that weak LEastern Conference era? Warriors too, right? When Steph was dinged, Bogut was out as moron Draymond ’kicked’ the series to them? If you are going to call out the weakened state of the Cavs in 2015, then you must also recognize injury also helped deliver Lebron’s greatest achievement.


2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

2008: had the Celtics on the ropes with that scrub of a Cavs team

2012: they were underdogs vs the Thunder

2016: I’ll admit, this win it very overrated and talked about way too much, and was aided by injuries and suspensions, like you mentioned, but still worth a note

2018: they were underdogs vs the Raptors, can’t remember if they were underdogs vs the Celtics in the series, but they were in game 7

The injury/suspension excuse for 2016 is bogus. Kevin Love got a concussion and was so horrible after that he was an overall negative. You might as well say he missed the series, or even worse, he hurt his team.


Well it was an impressive comeback and series win, I was just agreeing with the prior poster that it was overrated, as people have been acting like it was the greatest series win ever and proof of LeBron as GOAT.

I’d argue that a Cavs team that talented shouldn’t have fallen down 3-1. Yes a 73 win Warrior team, but that team was clearly running out of gas and injured, evidenced by their prior series vs OKC. And certainly the Green suspension and Bogut injury were big, regardless of what happened on the Cavs side.

So again, big comeback, just overrated.
Taj FTW
Starter
Posts: 2,060
And1: 2,851
Joined: Oct 28, 2022

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#183 » by Taj FTW » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:24 am

Hitachi77 wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:
2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

2008: had the Celtics on the ropes with that scrub of a Cavs team

2012: they were underdogs vs the Thunder

2016: I’ll admit, this win it very overrated and talked about way too much, and was aided by injuries and suspensions, like you mentioned, but still worth a note

2018: they were underdogs vs the Raptors, can’t remember if they were underdogs vs the Celtics in the series, but they were in game 7

The injury/suspension excuse for 2016 is bogus. Kevin Love got a concussion and was so horrible after that he was an overall negative. You might as well say he missed the series, or even worse, he hurt his team.


Well it was an impressive comeback and series win, I was just agreeing with the prior poster that it was overrated, as people have been acting like it was the greatest series win ever and proof of LeBron as GOAT.

I’d argue that a Cavs team that talented shouldn’t have fallen down 3-1. Yes a 73 win Warrior team, but that team was clearly running out of gas and injured, evidenced by their prior series vs OKC. And certainly the Green suspension and Bogut injury were big, regardless of what happened on the Cavs side.

So again, big comeback, just overrated.

Do you think the Bogut injury was as significant as the Love injury? I'd argue Love is a bigger loss.
GYK
General Manager
Posts: 8,948
And1: 2,670
Joined: Oct 08, 2014

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#184 » by GYK » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:28 am

30/6/6 is pretty solid.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#185 » by twyzted » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:29 am

Taj FTW wrote:
IG2 wrote:The 6-0 argument is for the simpletons. Usually touted by those who've clearly never seen him play beyond YT, The Last Dance and whatever they've heard from SAS and Skip.

MJ is better than LeBron, but Finals record has nothing to do with it. As if MJ wouldn't have lost to the '14 Spurs and '17 and '18 Warriors.

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.


Yeah no
Jordan never had sub 40% shooting series.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
1993Playoffs
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,187
And1: 4,366
Joined: Apr 25, 2017

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#186 » by 1993Playoffs » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:30 am

I think Lebron, Russell, Kareem have stronger statistical cases
DB23
Senior
Posts: 696
And1: 617
Joined: Jun 10, 2018

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#187 » by DB23 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:32 am

Taj FTW wrote:
durden_tyler wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:It's quite simple. Both were similarly dominant for their career. LeBron. Simply did it longer. If you put them in the exact same team for 20 years and want to maximize championships, LeBron is the obvious choice.


What maximize championships are you talking about? He couldn't deliver!

If you put Jordan on same timeline and length of LeBron, he'd have more than 6 championships. Heck if he did not get suspended and played baseball, realistic chance is that he would have had eight.

LeBron is a great, great player but just fell a bit short when compared to the GOAT. He can settle for #2, and that's okay LeBron fans.

Which of LeBron's teams would MJ win a championship with if you replaced LeBron with him? Durden, your arguments have been extremely weak tbh.


The Dallas one is obvious - and probably the best evidence we have. No way jordan loses to that team with wade and bosh
Taj FTW
Starter
Posts: 2,060
And1: 2,851
Joined: Oct 28, 2022

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#188 » by Taj FTW » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:32 am

twyzted wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
IG2 wrote:The 6-0 argument is for the simpletons. Usually touted by those who've clearly never seen him play beyond YT, The Last Dance and whatever they've heard from SAS and Skip.

MJ is better than LeBron, but Finals record has nothing to do with it. As if MJ wouldn't have lost to the '14 Spurs and '17 and '18 Warriors.

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.


Yeah no
Jordan never had sub 40% shooting series.

You think he would beat the 07 Spurs and 15 Warriors with the rosters LeBron had? I don't think you seriously believe that.
Taj FTW
Starter
Posts: 2,060
And1: 2,851
Joined: Oct 28, 2022

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#189 » by Taj FTW » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:33 am

DB23 wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
durden_tyler wrote:
What maximize championships are you talking about? He couldn't deliver!

If you put Jordan on same timeline and length of LeBron, he'd have more than 6 championships. Heck if he did not get suspended and played baseball, realistic chance is that he would have had eight.

LeBron is a great, great player but just fell a bit short when compared to the GOAT. He can settle for #2, and that's okay LeBron fans.

Which of LeBron's teams would MJ win a championship with if you replaced LeBron with him? Durden, your arguments have been extremely weak tbh.


The Dallas one is obvious - and probably the best evidence we have. No way jordan loses to that team with wade and bosh

I agree. But that poster said he'd have more than 6. What are the others? Also, MJ doesn't beat the 16 warriors most likely, so it's a wash.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#190 » by twyzted » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:38 am

Taj FTW wrote:
DB23 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...


Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

You forget MJ played with "The Chief" Robert Parish and "The A-Train" Artis Gilmore? What are those guys, chumps?


Ait
Shaq.
Ben wallace.
Illgauskas.
Ray allen.
Rajon rondo.
Dwight Howard.
Jerry Stackhouse.
Juwan Howard.
Mike Miller.
Mike Bibby.
Shane Battier.
Rashard Lewis.
Greg Oden.
Shawn Marion.
Richard Jefferson.
Deron Williams.
Derrick Rose.
Kyle Korver.
Isiah Thomas.
Brandon ingram.
Kyle Kuzma.
Tyson Chandler.
Marc Gasol.
Carmelo Anthony.
Russell Westbrook.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
Taj FTW
Starter
Posts: 2,060
And1: 2,851
Joined: Oct 28, 2022

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#191 » by Taj FTW » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:40 am

twyzted wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
DB23 wrote:
Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

You forget MJ played with "The Chief" Robert Parish and "The A-Train" Artis Gilmore? What are those guys, chumps?


Ait
Shaq.
Ben wallace.
Illgauskas.
Ray allen.
Rajon rondo.
Dwight Howard.
Jerry Stackhouse.
Juwan Howard.
Mike Miller.
Mike Bibby.
Shane Battier.
Rashard Lewis.
Greg Oden.
Shawn Marion.
Richard Jefferson.
Deron Williams.
Derrick Rose.
Kyle Korver.
Isiah Thomas.
Brandon ingram.
Kyle Kuzma.
Tyson Chandler.
Marc Gasol.
Carmelo Anthony.
Russell Westbrook.

Those chumps don't even belong in the same sentence as the A-Train or The Chief. Gilmore was one cool MFer.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#192 » by twyzted » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:48 am

zimpy27 wrote:How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.


Right

Advanced stats for regular Season:
1st in PER
1st in ws/48
5th in WS
5th in ows
14th in dbpm(2nd among guards)
1st obpm
2nd bpm
2nd Vorp

Playoffs:
1st in PER
2nd in ws
7th in dws
1st ws/48
1st obpm
13th dbpm
1st bpm
2nd VORP

Would consider this a pretty strong arguments for him.

He absolutly smokes Lebron in any metric not longevity based. And most likly every other candidate.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#193 » by twyzted » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:50 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
DB23 wrote:
Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc


Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!



James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?


Dont forget to mention that he was carried by Ad in the playoffs and posted horrible clutch stats.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
Warspite
RealGM
Posts: 13,575
And1: 1,252
Joined: Dec 13, 2003
Location: Surprise AZ
Contact:
       

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#194 » by Warspite » Wed Jul 5, 2023 6:00 am

MaxZaslofskyJr wrote:
Castle Black wrote:1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.

James is undefeated in NCAA play.


He is also winless.
HomoSapien wrote:Warspite, the greatest poster in the history of realgm.
remiga007
Sophomore
Posts: 226
And1: 245
Joined: Apr 28, 2017
   

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#195 » by remiga007 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 6:20 am

zimpy27 wrote:How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.


Jordan has raw box score numbers and rings arguments virtually locked up. And, surprisingly for me, there have been so many arguments for him in advanced metrics department in this thread as well.

Lebron obviously has longevity/total numbers argument locked up.

Not really sure how you may even start to approach the conclusion that there were no data driven arguments presented here, which are favoring Jordan.

I for one think that both of them have case for GOAT but this thread now has given me a question mark, what really is Lebron's argument, except totals count.
User avatar
Kawaii Leonard
Pro Prospect
Posts: 996
And1: 1,274
Joined: Jun 08, 2012
Location: raps in 6ix
 

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#196 » by Kawaii Leonard » Wed Jul 5, 2023 7:41 am

knicksNOTslick wrote:
CrabDribbler wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Ahh yes, Jordan played in only 6 NBA seasons and won a championship every year.


Yup and he definitely could’ve went 8/8 if he didn’t retire to dominate baseball too.

I guess it's better to be 4-20 jumping around to different teams, while draining all their assets to build a contender, desperately chasing rings and stats to self proclaim yourself as the GOAT


Even the green font can’t help him. Can’t expect anything less from Knick fan.
WarriorGM wrote:Steph is the greatest playmaker of all-time.
ClubLakers KB8
Starter
Posts: 2,109
And1: 627
Joined: Oct 14, 2007

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#197 » by ClubLakers KB8 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 10:07 am

tdot_steel wrote:
ClubLakers KB8 wrote:I'll just say this, anyone using the 6/6 argument for Jordan better admit that the teams LBJ faced were FAR superior.


Now I know you are clueless and have not watched basketball before 2000.

The quality of teams back in the day were far superior than today. Below are the rosters of some of the playoff teams from the 1989-90 season. Most of the teams have 1 HOF player. Watch some more ball from that era before commenting.

BLAZERS
Clyde Drexler HOF
Jerome Kersey
Dražen Petrović
Terry Porter
Clifford Robinson
Buck Williams

SUNS
Tom Chambers
Kevin Johnson
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Eddie Johnson
Kurt Rambis

MAVS
Rolando Blackman
Derek Harper
Roy Tarpley
Sam Perkins
Adrian Dantley HOF

LAKERS
Michael Cooper
Vlade Divac HOF
A.C. Green
Magic Johnson HOF
Byron Scott
Mychal Thompson
James Worthy HOF

ROCKETS
Sleepy Floyd
Buck Johnson
John Lucas
Vernon Maxwell
Hakeem Olajuwon HOF
Otis Thorpe

CELTICS
33 Larry Bird HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Reggie Lewis
Kevin McHale HOF
Robert Parish HOF
Jim Paxson

BUCKS
Mike Dunleavy
Ricky Pierce
Paul Pressey
Alvin Robertson
Jack Sikma HOF

SIXERS
Charles Barkley HOF
Johnny Dawkins
Hersey Hawkins
Rick Mahorn

PISTONS
Mark Aguirre
Joe Dumars HOF
Vinnie Johnson
Bill Laimbeer
Dennis Rodman HOF
John Salley
Isiah Thomas HOF

KNICKS
Maurice Cheeks HOF
Patrick Ewing HOF
Mark Jackson
Charles Oakley
Rod Strickland
Kiki Vandeweghe

PACERS
Reggie Miller HOF
Chuck Person
Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits

CAVS
Ron Harper
Mark Price
Craig Ehlo
Brad Daugherty
Hot Rod Williams
Larry Nance


First off, not true at all. I watched the league prior to 2000 my friend.

I was saying simply the FINALS teams. Are you really saying that all of the Finals teams MJ played are on par with Lebron's opponents? I was just arguing against the 6 for 6. There's some merit to LeBron making the finals year after year after year even if he didn't always take home. The trophy.
User avatar
SelfishPlayer
General Manager
Posts: 7,550
And1: 3,369
Joined: May 23, 2014

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#198 » by SelfishPlayer » Wed Jul 5, 2023 10:20 am

NZB2323 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.


There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick


Pippen won 1 playoff series in 94 without Jordan, when he had Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, and Longley.

Wade won a championship without Lebron.

AD was fantastic in the 2018 playoffs, he swept Dame, he just couldn’t beat the KD Warriors.

06 Wade: 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
18 AD: 30, 13, and 2, 58.4 TS%, 25.8 PER
94 Pippen: 23, 8, and 5, 52.1 TS%, 22.8 PER

I guess you could say Pippen went to the WCF in 2000, but that’s kind of like saying Love went to the Finals in 2023.

Pippen lost in the first round in 99 with Hakeem and Barkley.


Wade won a championship on Shaq's team. Wade couldn't lead Lebron and Bosh to a chip so he handed over the reigns back to being LEAD!
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
User avatar
SelfishPlayer
General Manager
Posts: 7,550
And1: 3,369
Joined: May 23, 2014

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#199 » by SelfishPlayer » Wed Jul 5, 2023 10:24 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

Wade won a championship and finals mvp in 06 lol what are you talking about? He was clearly the best player in the finals and probably the best player in the nba that year.


Shaq's team...

Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh. He relinquished the team to Lebron after failing.



Lol just stop man Wade was unbelievable in the 06 finals. Are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell lol

Did you watch the 2011 finals? Wade was great, your guy James not so much. Just take the L man


2011 Finals the one where Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh to a championship so he gave the team to Lebron from that point forward so that he could win a championship not as the main guy similar to when Shaq lead the Heat to the championship?
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
User avatar
TheGOATRises007
RealGM
Posts: 21,616
And1: 20,288
Joined: Oct 05, 2013
         

Re: What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT? 

Post#200 » by TheGOATRises007 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 10:25 am

I mean there's more data available now and there wasn't play-by-play tracking until the '97 season.

It's hard to compare data of 1 player with so many variable metrics to choose from now and another with much less variable metrics to choose from. The data is also likely evolving constantly and going through constant changes.

Some of the RAPM samples from the 90's and later on are wonky, and some of the results are simulated-based if I recall correctly. There's not enough of a sample size.

Box-score metrics are extremely favorable to Jordan. If you don't like box-score metrics, there's posts by people in this thread that depict Jordan's raptor metrics, Jordan's +- in 3 variable metrics(the thinking basketball video) and likely a few others that I missed.

It's disingenuous to lead an argument how there's more data-driven metrics supporting LeBron's case, when he's playing in the data-ball era. There's far more data and variable metrics now. It's easier to compare players directly in the same era than from different eras if you're going to lead with the data-driven argument.

And either way, there's +- data that favors Jordan over LeBron with a clear gap.

Return to The General Board