Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[dhsilv2]

So you're pretty much saying KB is a better team player than a Prime Kawhi?

That can't be true

Well the gap on defense is pretty large here. And again Leonard is a considerably better scorer which is what I'm pointing out. That said, I'm not really want to argue about the two. Leonard's injury issues make it too hard for me to make a call on. I'd say Leonard's 2019 playoff run is likely better, but even then he was hurting in the finals.

Leonard is/was a more efficient offensive player/shooter (from all over the court) but i dont see how you can say he is/was a considerably better scorer. In what way? More efficien? Yes of course, but that doesnt make him a superior scorer per se.

Given their volumes were comparable and Leonard didn't have the passing to punish doubles...and he could STILL do that? How else is he doing that?

[maradro]

This is like asking Modern Pippen or Modern MJ
People that enjoy a pass first overall team player will pick Kawhi

People that like the player that will take the winning shot every single game would pick KB

What? Leonard is a scorer. Kobe is the better play maker of the two. Leonard the better scorer. If you want a pass first guy...you don't take either of these guys.

Kawhi is the more complete team player and willing to give up his ego for the success of the team

Kawhi and Shaq would've worked out better than KB & Shaq. Shaq would've stayed with Lakers and had his Modern Pippen and won more than 3 rings together

If KB played with Pop and Duncan/Gino/TP he probably would've broke that team up.

They are both great but KB is definitely the scorer between the two and Kawhi is the 5 on 5 Team player

Kawhi with shaq would be lucky to win 2, assuming he could play 16+ games for two playoff runs

And Kawhi DID break up the spurs, no hypothetical needed. Luckily the aftermath landed us wemby.

I actually hated Kobe for most of the last 25 years but I would still take him over Kawhi any day, there is no such thing as peak Kawhi hes never played the volume true super stars play, even for a single season. Kawhi is only valuable as an x factor on a stacked team. He has never carried a team the way most superstars have to, and even with that reduced load playing on stacked teams, his body broke down. Give me Kobe even if his shot was -5% or whatever. Availability is theost important ability

[Tha Cynic]

I used to hate Kobe with a passion. Then I studied his game and became a huge fan when he became 24.

In my personal opinion there was more to Kobe Bryant than stats. He was someone who chose the style he wanted to play and made no apologies about it and could have easily played the triple double game. Some of that mysticism of Kobe Bryant was real. He did things on the court that did something to the psyche of the opponent and changed the trajectory of games. Only a handful in the entire history of the NBA had that. What is never mentioned was how elite he was at passing and setting up others. In today's NBA he would have been more of a triple double player but I wonder if he would have also lost that edge because of how complacent and friendly players are today.

Over the years Kobe has become very underrated which is crazy. Kawhi is a great player in his own right, but he was not the on court persona and aura that Kobe was when the playoffs started, and that plays a huge part in how teams play.

One thing to remember when comparing eras is to remember that the superstars of that time would have been even better today in this era. We are watching the most offensively inflated era of all time.

[Maxthirty]

I used to hate Kobe with a passion. Then I studied his game and became a huge fan when he became 24.

In my personal opinion there was more to Kobe Bryant than stats. He was someone who chose the style he wanted to play and made no apologies about it and could have easily played the triple double game. Some of that mysticism of Kobe Bryant was real. He did things on the court that did something to the psyche of the opponent and changed the trajectory of games. Only a handful in the entire history of the NBA had that. What is never mentioned was how elite he was at passing and setting up others. In today's NBA he would have been more of a triple double player but I wonder if he would have also lost that edge because of how complacent and friendly players are today.

Over the years Kobe has become very underrated which is crazy. Kawhi is a great player in his own right, but he was not the on court persona and aura that Kobe was when the playoffs started, and that plays a huge part in how teams play.

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

[Tha Cynic]

I used to hate Kobe with a passion. Then I studied his game and became a huge fan when he became 24.

In my personal opinion there was more to Kobe Bryant than stats. He was someone who chose the style he wanted to play and made no apologies about it and could have easily played the triple double game. Some of that mysticism of Kobe Bryant was real. He did things on the court that did something to the psyche of the opponent and changed the trajectory of games. Only a handful in the entire history of the NBA had that. What is never mentioned was how elite he was at passing and setting up others. In today's NBA he would have been more of a triple double player but I wonder if he would have also lost that edge because of how complacent and friendly players are today.

Over the years Kobe has become very underrated which is crazy. Kawhi is a great player in his own right, but he was not the on court persona and aura that Kobe was when the playoffs started, and that plays a huge part in how teams play.

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

[Maxthirty]

I used to hate Kobe with a passion. Then I studied his game and became a huge fan when he became 24.

In my personal opinion there was more to Kobe Bryant than stats. He was someone who chose the style he wanted to play and made no apologies about it and could have easily played the triple double game. Some of that mysticism of Kobe Bryant was real. He did things on the court that did something to the psyche of the opponent and changed the trajectory of games. Only a handful in the entire history of the NBA had that. What is never mentioned was how elite he was at passing and setting up others. In today's NBA he would have been more of a triple double player but I wonder if he would have also lost that edge because of how complacent and friendly players are today.

Over the years Kobe has become very underrated which is crazy. Kawhi is a great player in his own right, but he was not the on court persona and aura that Kobe was when the playoffs started, and that plays a huge part in how teams play.

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

[Jailblazers7]

Extremely hard comp because we never got to see a fully healthy prime Kawhi. Even during the Toronto finals run he was hobbled.

I’d probably still take Kobe due to consistency & leadership tho.

[BlzMwt]

I used to hate Kobe with a passion. Then I studied his game and became a huge fan when he became 24.

In my personal opinion there was more to Kobe Bryant than stats. He was someone who chose the style he wanted to play and made no apologies about it and could have easily played the triple double game. Some of that mysticism of Kobe Bryant was real. He did things on the court that did something to the psyche of the opponent and changed the trajectory of games. Only a handful in the entire history of the NBA had that. What is never mentioned was how elite he was at passing and setting up others. In today's NBA he would have been more of a triple double player but I wonder if he would have also lost that edge because of how complacent and friendly players are today.

Over the years Kobe has become very underrated which is crazy. Kawhi is a great player in his own right, but he was not the on court persona and aura that Kobe was when the playoffs started, and that plays a huge part in how teams play.

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

When stats and eye test don't match... we go to the "mysticism" of Kobe which is as subjective as it gets.

Casuals (not calling you one) will often say Jordan is the GOAT because he was a "killer on the court" or the "ultimate competitor". Like what does this mean? It's as subjective and personal as you can get. You cannot measure it (not saying stats alone will do it).

But then this poster says "mysticism" is made up and then we go to the ringzzz argument.

We can do better than this.

[Tha Cynic]

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

I mean how many rings was Shaq winning without an elite guard or LeBron James without handpicked superstars to team up with? That's not really an argument either way. And it is taking something away from said player when that argument is brought up even though he very clearly also won without Shaq. Unfortunately you can't make assumptions that he wouldn't have won with another star big. You just know that he won 5 rings and was a legit superstar when he won them.

[Tha Cynic]

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

When stats and eye test don't match... we go to the "mysticism" of Kobe which is as subjective as it gets.

Casuals (not calling you one) will often say Jordan is the GOAT because he was a "killer on the court" or the "ultimate competitor". Like what does this mean? It's as subjective and personal as you can get. You cannot measure it (not saying stats alone will do it).

But then this poster says "mysticism" is made up and then we go to the ringzzz argument.

We can do better than this.

Casuals will say what about Jordan?

This looks like a take from someone who never actually watched that era of basketball. Not saying that you didn't.

So basically your argument is lets look at stats in an era when everyone's stats are inflated and compare them to stats from guys who played in an isolation era with mediocre 3 point shooting and different rules? Yeah, that doesn't skew things at all.

Btw, everyone is just throwing opinions out there. There are no apples to apples comparisons here for anyone to be so sure about anything.

Let's not talk about rings either. What should we talk about?

[Maxthirty]

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

I mean how many rings was Shaq winning without an elite guard or LeBron James without handpicked superstars to team up with? That's not really an argument either way. And it is taking something away from said player when that argument is brought up even though he very clearly also won without Shaq. Unfortunately you can't make assumptions that he wouldn't have won with another star big. You just know that he won 5 rings and was a legit superstar when he won them.

We’re not talking about Shaq or LeBron. We’re talking about Kobe. But since you brought them up - how many titles have those two won as the second best player on their team?

The answer is 1 out of 8. Kobe’s is 3 out of 5.

[Tha Cynic]

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

I mean how many rings was Shaq winning without an elite guard or LeBron James without handpicked superstars to team up with? That's not really an argument either way. And it is taking something away from said player when that argument is brought up even though he very clearly also won without Shaq. Unfortunately you can't make assumptions that he wouldn't have won with another star big. You just know that he won 5 rings and was a legit superstar when he won them.

We’re not talking about Shaq or LeBron. We’re talking about Kobe. But since you brought them up - how many titles have those two won as the second best player on their team?

The answer is 1 out of 8. Kobe’s is 3 out of 5.

The argument was about how rings do matter and said player won wings both with a dominant force and without a dominant force and he wasn't the GM so he couldn't have just traded the other player away.

If LeBron James played in Shaq's era with Shaq where inside out was a huge strategy, who do you think would dominate the stats sheet in the playoffs? Would he even be the same player in that era?

Sometimes we need to put some deeper thought into these things than put out general comments. You said you weren't trying to take away from Kobe's accomplishments, but you very clearly are trying to when you're commenting as if Kobe was a bench player or something.

What we know is Kobe won 5 rings. He won playing with Shaq and he won without Shaq. It has been proven in every era that superstars need other superstars to win consistently. Now whether he's 12-14 or 20-25 all time, that's up to you. I'm commenting on who I would take in the playoffs if I wanted to win a championship between Kawhi and Kobe and I'm taking Kobe.

[BlzMwt]

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

When stats and eye test don't match... we go to the "mysticism" of Kobe which is as subjective as it gets.

Casuals (not calling you one) will often say Jordan is the GOAT because he was a "killer on the court" or the "ultimate competitor". Like what does this mean? It's as subjective and personal as you can get. You cannot measure it (not saying stats alone will do it).

But then this poster says "mysticism" is made up and then we go to the ringzzz argument.

We can do better than this.

Casuals will say what about Jordan?

This looks like a take from someone who never actually watched that era of basketball. Not saying that you didn't.

So basically your argument is lets look at stats in an era when everyone's stats are inflated and compare them to stats from guys who played in an isolation era with mediocre 3 point shooting and different rules? Yeah, that doesn't skew things at all.

Btw, everyone is just throwing opinions out there. There are no apples to apples comparisons here for anyone to be so sure about anything.

Let's not talk about rings either. What should we talk about?

I literally said that stats alone wouldn't do it.

There are a bunch of ways to compare and judge players.

Using phrases like "aura" and "mysticism" aren't it. We may as well say we think X player is the best because they are "cool" or "magical".

Stats. Eye test. Accolades. Accomplishments and stats relative to their era.

A combination of all these things... but not using such subjective words that mean nothing and can't be measured.

[Maxthirty]

I mean how many rings was Shaq winning without an elite guard or LeBron James without handpicked superstars to team up with? That's not really an argument either way. And it is taking something away from said player when that argument is brought up even though he very clearly also won without Shaq. Unfortunately you can't make assumptions that he wouldn't have won with another star big. You just know that he won 5 rings and was a legit superstar when he won them.

We’re not talking about Shaq or LeBron. We’re talking about Kobe. But since you brought them up - how many titles have those two won as the second best player on their team?

The answer is 1 out of 8. Kobe’s is 3 out of 5.

The argument was about how rings do matter and said player won wings both with a dominant force and without a dominant force and he wasn't the GM so he couldn't have just traded the other player away.

If LeBron James played in Shaq's era with Shaq where inside out was a huge strategy, who do you think would dominate the stats sheet in the playoffs? Would he even be the same player in that era?

Sometimes we need to put some deeper thought into these things than put out general comments. You said you weren't trying to take away from Kobe's accomplishments, but you very clearly are trying to when you're commenting as if Kobe was a bench player or something.

What we know is Kobe won 5 rings. He won playing with Shaq and he won without Shaq. It has been proven in every era that superstars need other superstars to win consistently. Now whether he's 12-14 or 20-25 all time, that's up to you. I'm commenting on who I would take in the playoffs if I wanted to win a championship between Kawhi and Kobe and I'm taking Kobe.

Come on, man. What era do you think LeBron played in? LeBron was in the NBA for the majority of the years Shaq and Kobe played in the league. Mentioning LeBron in an argument for Kobe is only going to hurt your case.

Anyway, I don’t really care if you’d take prime Kobe over prime Kawhi. I think Kawhi at his best is better but the sample size is much smaller. So, it’s hard to really say.

[Tha Cynic]

When stats and eye test don't match... we go to the "mysticism" of Kobe which is as subjective as it gets.

Casuals (not calling you one) will often say Jordan is the GOAT because he was a "killer on the court" or the "ultimate competitor". Like what does this mean? It's as subjective and personal as you can get. You cannot measure it (not saying stats alone will do it).

But then this poster says "mysticism" is made up and then we go to the ringzzz argument.

We can do better than this.

Casuals will say what about Jordan?

This looks like a take from someone who never actually watched that era of basketball. Not saying that you didn't.

So basically your argument is lets look at stats in an era when everyone's stats are inflated and compare them to stats from guys who played in an isolation era with mediocre 3 point shooting and different rules? Yeah, that doesn't skew things at all.

Btw, everyone is just throwing opinions out there. There are no apples to apples comparisons here for anyone to be so sure about anything.

Let's not talk about rings either. What should we talk about?

I literally said that stats alone wouldn't do it.

There are a bunch of ways to compare and judge players.

Using phrases like "aura" and "mysticism" aren't it. We may as well say we think X player is the best because they are "cool" or "magical".

Stats. Eye test. Accolades. Accomplishments and stats relative to their era.

A combination of all these things... but not using such subjective words that mean nothing and can't be measured.

Glad we agree.

[MavsDirk41]

Well the gap on defense is pretty large here. And again Leonard is a considerably better scorer which is what I'm pointing out. That said, I'm not really want to argue about the two. Leonard's injury issues make it too hard for me to make a call on. I'd say Leonard's 2019 playoff run is likely better, but even then he was hurting in the finals.

Leonard is/was a more efficient offensive player/shooter (from all over the court) but i dont see how you can say he is/was a considerably better scorer. In what way? More efficien? Yes of course, but that doesnt make him a superior scorer per se.

Given their volumes were comparable and Leonard didn't have the passing to punish doubles...and he could STILL do that? How else is he doing that?

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

[DayofMourning]

No disrespect to Kobe, but peak Kawhi is nearly a perfect player.

[DAWill1128]

Kobe. Kobe won 5 Championships in 10 years and went to 7 Finals between 2000-2010.

[flytimes11]

Bisme37 shouldn’t this be on player comparison board? The mods here want to pick and choose when they moderate. One and done clearly has an agenda and wants to push a narrative about Kobe. That guy needs a life outside of realgm. All his posts are Kobe slights.

[Handlez]

Kawhi could never lead a team to back to back to back finals and back to back titles.

Too brittle.

If Kobe could walk, he was playing.

Kobe played the 2010 playoffs on one knee.