RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Rust_Cohle]

and mj played ass teams in the finals compared to what lebron had to play against. so what now?

Would much much rather play a hard team in the finals and have an absolute cupcake walk to the finals than having multiple harder teams on the way to the finals.

Case in point, put lebron in the west during those years and there is no multiple finals appearances. The west was a blood bath. MJ played in the harder conference in his time, that’s what up now.

Everyone would take facing a harder team at the end as oppose to being more challenged on the way to the finals. Hence why is double three peat surpasses lebron

well im not saying you are wrong, but it works both ways.

i can make the same argument here. put MJ on the cavs, lakers and heat. he would have faced 2 of the top dynasties that ever existed (lebron played GSW/SAS 7 out 10 times). would mj still be 6-0? noone will be able to answer that question. i personally doubt it, but hey everybody can answer that for themselves.

mj faced top dynasties in the celtics and pistons if you wanna count them. and mj lost aswell against those

Put MJ on 2011 Heat and they wipe the floor with Dallas.

Lebron takes you to the finals, MJ wins them for you. Lebron out west does not get 8 straight finals at all.

[SlimShady83]

Hope Jordan can reach 100 votes by the wknd, come on fam make it happen.

[Drakeem]

Y'all are seriously gonna argue that if MJ had made the Finals 4 more times but lost to go 6-4 that his argument as GOAT would be weaker

I mean, 6-0 is better than 6-4.

You're 6-4 either way; it's just that you won less in those 4 losses since you never made it to the Finals.

I get the concept of loving the 6-0 record (always sealing the deal when you're in that position) but this Jordan vs Bron debate is quite literally the only time that I've ever seen where making the Finals gets handwaved because of this almighty 6-0 record. If you look at futbol, take either Champions League or the World Cup or Copa/Euros, making the final round is still considered a great achievement. Croatia making the WC finals will be celebrated in Croatia for a long, long time. Making the World Series in baseball is still considering an achievement, even if you couldn't seal the deal. Ask a football fan if they wouldn't be happy with a Superbowl appearance vs losing in the first round. As a Giants fan, I would be more than happy to make the SB next year. I could say the same for Tennis where they earn more money each round they pass. You think those players aren't happy with the extra million dollars making a Grand Slam final? Hell, ANY sport (even in the Olympics, a silver or bronze gets a lot of recognition vs not making the top three).

I'm just not buying it. We can argue that Bron should have probably had a BETTER record (2011 is the prime example) but saying making the Finals, advancing farther in the playoffs doesn't matter is just such a dumb statement without any further context and it insults athletes by saying losing in the Finals and being #2 in that situation isn't an accomplishment. I get that in this situation we're talking about arguably the two greatest players ever and we need to split hairs to make a decision, but saying "6-0, rangz" without any context or explanation just makes you look silly.

Basketball discourse has gotten far too simplified, and this whole ring culture has gotten beyond annoying. The Mavs run should be celebrated as a nice Cinderella story in the West but after finishing second out of all teams in this season, we had to listen to Luka shaming for 2 weeks in a row. A dude who's 24-25 years old mind you. Boston and Tatum has had endless success since Tatum got drafted no matter who was on that roster and I saw Tatum bust Durant and Giannis's ass in his first final runs, but because of a bad series or two I have to now hear terrible opinion pieces bc it's #1 or the entire season doesn't matter.

It's weird. It's annoying. It serves nothing but to add to the cesspool of media that guys like Skip and SAS contribute to.

[playa-hater]

To have Magic > Bird is a Joke. a Stupid narrative that was made up by the NBA way back when.. Magic rode the Coattails of a Super stacked team in a disgusting bad Western Conference but didn't have 1/tenth of Larry's takeover a game ability.. Or Super Clutch killer ability. All while Magic had 1-100th of Bird's pressure to "deliver"

I think Bird attempted more late-clutch-game on the line shots in one month than Magic had in his entire career.

Then only single skill Magic had > Larry was push the ball up on fast break speed... That is All. Nothing else.

and Now I read a thread and Bird isn't even an option but Magic is just proves message board a full of casuals or wasn't born yet fans..

Bird had won 3 straight MVPs and then had his best year of his career... But the powers to be just couldn't give Bird 4 straight. they had to Give Magic his first.. what kind of "rivalry would it be If it's Bird 4-0

Bird also won College POTY and ROTY over Magic for what it's worth.

Imagine one player game after game, week after week, year after year, taking almost every Big shot while EVERYONE at the game and in TV land around the world Knew he would get the Ball (Bird) compared to a player who almost never (I can't remember one) had a play called for him to deliver in crunch time.

Magic Freakin Johnson pumped up so much of his over inflated stats on fast breaks against the dredge teams of the League out West, while Birds had to "slug it out" withy the Detroits Philly Chicago-Bucks Knicks etc.. of the East.

Magic didn't even shoot basic jump-shots and/or 3 pointers until half his career went by..

There are probably a thousand videos on YouTube just by Larry's peers talking about how incredibly hard he is to Guard.. Compared to Magic's Crickets in comparison.. Maybe just maybe people should try looking some up..

**** Shame on Posters on here..

[SlimShady83]

Well done to all... Jordan Reaches 100

[WarriorGM]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

[GSWFan1994]

Hope Jordan can reach 100 votes by the wknd, come on fam make it happen.

"Your wish has been granted, gentleman"

- The Basketball Gods

[SlimShady83]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

I'm shocked with that, but also shocked the Jokic poll hasn't sky rocketed since lol. Wasn't so long ago everyone was saying Jokic Is Him and best center ever - I'd love to go back and get those threads, but don't think they're worthy to bump old threads up lol.

[HiDef]

LeBron in Cleveland the 2nd time around was to me the best player that ever lived. but Jordan is still the greatest.

[SlimShady83]

LeBron in Cleveland the 2nd time around was to me the best player that ever lived. but Jordan is still the greatest.

Not fan but thanks for everyone and their votes:) and being mostly repectful.

[KembaWalker]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

Why didn’t you vote for him

[WarriorGM]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

Why didn’t you vote for him

I don't vote on polls like this lest it be said I'm biasing the poll and manipulating perceptions.

[The4thHorseman]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

Naaaaa, it'd be even sillier to give him a vote for being the best basketball player of all time. Best 3pt shooter, yes. Best to ever play, not even close.

[WarriorGM]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

Naaaaa, it'd be even sillier to give him a vote for being the best basketball player of all time. Best 3pt shooter, yes. Best to ever play, not even close.

On the contrary it is quite easy to come up with a logical argument for Curry as the greatest basketball player ever.

For example if you were to ask knowledgeable boxing fans who is the greatest boxer in history quite a few will give Sugar Ray Robinson as an answer even though his is not a heavyweight boxer. Indeed in boxing they actually give the idea of pound-for-pound boxer significant weight. For some reason that is not the conventional approach in basketball but there is no real conceptual reason why it shouldn't be.

Then you can go down a list of basketball accomplishments Curry has a claim to that can be described as greatest and it is not really a difficult argument.

Greatest single regular season wins record.
Greatest single season playoffs wins record.
Fastest turnaround from last place to championship.
Championship with longest odds at start of season.

Curry's career shows the ability to lift teams to the highest ceiling and also the capacity to win a championship coming from the lowest floor.

All the other candidates are mainly competing on the same criteria with each other. Curry's arguments are singular and distinctive in comparison. For people who think the same way Curry may not be obvious. But for people who can take a step back and not be mired in orthodoxy Curry stands out.

[The4thHorseman]

RealGM showing how silly it is with not even one vote for Curry yet.

Naaaaa, it'd be even sillier to give him a vote for being the best basketball player of all time. Best 3pt shooter, yes. Best to ever play, not even close.

On the contrary it is quite easy to come up with a logical argument for Curry as the greatest basketball player ever.

For example if you were to ask knowledgeable boxing fans who is the greatest boxer in history quite a few will give Sugar Ray Robinson as an answer even though his is not a heavyweight boxer. Indeed in boxing they actually give the idea of pound-for-pound boxer significant weight. For some reason that is not the conventional approach in basketball but there is no real conceptual reason why it shouldn't be.

Then you can go down a list of basketball accomplishments Curry has a claim to that can be described as greatest and it is not really a difficult argument.

Greatest single regular season wins record.
Greatest single season playoffs wins record.
Fastest turnaround from last place to championship.
Championship with longest odds at start of season.

Curry's career shows the ability to lift teams to the highest ceiling and also the capacity to win coming from the lowest floor.

All the other candidates are mainly competing on the same criteria with each other. Curry's arguments are singular and distinctive in comparison. For people who think they same way Curry may not be obvious. But for people who can take a step back and not be mired in orthodoxy Curry stands out.

Comparing a team sport to an individual sport is a logical argument?

[WarriorGM]

Naaaaa, it'd be even sillier to give him a vote for being the best basketball player of all time. Best 3pt shooter, yes. Best to ever play, not even close.

On the contrary it is quite easy to come up with a logical argument for Curry as the greatest basketball player ever.

For example if you were to ask knowledgeable boxing fans who is the greatest boxer in history quite a few will give Sugar Ray Robinson as an answer even though his is not a heavyweight boxer. Indeed in boxing they actually give the idea of pound-for-pound boxer significant weight. For some reason that is not the conventional approach in basketball but there is no real conceptual reason why it shouldn't be.

Then you can go down a list of basketball accomplishments Curry has a claim to that can be described as greatest and it is not really a difficult argument.

Greatest single regular season wins record.
Greatest single season playoffs wins record.
Fastest turnaround from last place to championship.
Championship with longest odds at start of season.

Curry's career shows the ability to lift teams to the highest ceiling and also the capacity to win coming from the lowest floor.

All the other candidates are mainly competing on the same criteria with each other. Curry's arguments are singular and distinctive in comparison. For people who think they same way Curry may not be obvious. But for people who can take a step back and not be mired in orthodoxy Curry stands out.

Comparing a team sport to an individual sport is a logical argument?

You can roll your eyes all you want but the logic speaks for itself. Indeed given how pretty much all the other candidates for greatest basketball player are giants, it would actually make more sense to call attention to the difference. To have accomplishments that rival or surpass better physically endowed players when such physical advantage historically has almost always been a prerequisite for such accomplishments is incredible.

[PassMeTheBall]

Jordan & it’s not close at all. I think the only other cases are for Kareem if you factor in his entire basketball career & not just the NBA & Russell. Those will likely always be the top 3 for me unless someone else comes along that dominates.

[Homer38]

No problem having Jordan as number 1, he deserves it but it takes special criteria to not have LBJ in the top 4 with KAJ, MJ and Russell...LBJ is in this tier since 2016

[HighFlyer23]

It's a team sport so it's really not fair to consider a single player the best or greatest

But it's going to be MJ based on any reasonable criteria

Depending on how much you positively or negatively weigh different parts of performance such as accomplishments, accolades, awards, achievements, failures, successes, stats, intangibles, shortcomings, expectations, impact, offense, defense etc.

I'd say that mostly everyone can agree that leading a team to a championship as the best player is the goal and the hardest thing to do. And the fashion it's done in along with the total contribution to the success of the team also matters with that regard. That's the goal and the actual challenge of the sport.

Jordan has done that better than anyone else, so he gets the nod. He's led his teams to 6 titles as the best player with the most impact and best statistical performance. He was definitely the best offensive player and was just as good defensively as Pippen or Rodman, who are considered elite defenders on his own team. He's never been on super stacked teams and his competition was strong overall. He may have not beaten the KD Warriors or the 86 Celtics but he's beaten very good teams in his championship campaigns. Doesn't have a catastrophic collapse like Lebron in 2011.

Some one with enough time on their hands can analyze all of these facets and aspects of performance to a point system and Jordan will likely come out on top. Guys like Wilt and Hakeem didn't win enough and didn't achieve the same level of success as MJ. Magic and Bird aren't as complete as Jordan and played on stacked teams. Lebron has too many failures and weaknesses in his game. Kobe was the number 2 option for a good part of his career. Duncan isn't as statistically dominant as Jordan and doesn't have as many accolades. Shaq underachieved and his career doesn't add up as well compared to Jordan. Kareem is close but he may have been a number 2 option at certain points of his career. Bill Russell had no offensive game. Too soon to say for Jokic and why is Curry in this poll? Steph Curry is not the GOAT basketball player. Not even Curry would tell you he is.

And honestly I don't see how Lebron is #2 on this poll. He has more flaws and weaknesses and failures than many of the other greats.

[The Explorer]

It's a team sport so it's really not fair to consider a single player the best or greatest

But it's going to be MJ based on any reasonable criteria

Depending on how much you positively or negatively weigh different parts of performance such as accomplishments, accolades, awards, achievements, failures, successes, stats, intangibles, shortcomings, expectations, impact, offense, defense etc.

I'd say that mostly everyone can agree that leading a team to a championship as the best player is the goal and the hardest thing to do. And the fashion it's done in along with the total contribution to the success of the team also matters with that regard. That's the goal and the actual challenge of the sport.

Jordan has done that better than anyone else, so he gets the nod. He's led his teams to 6 titles as the best player with the most impact and best statistical performance. He was definitely the best offensive player and was just as good defensively as Pippen or Rodman, who are considered elite defenders on his own team. He's never been on super stacked teams and his competition was strong overall. He may have not beaten the KD Warriors or the 86 Celtics but he's beaten very good teams in his championship campaigns. Doesn't have a catastrophic collapse like Lebron in 2011.

Some one with enough time on their hands can analyze all of these facets and aspects of performance to a point system and Jordan will likely come out on top. Guys like Wilt and Hakeem didn't win enough and didn't achieve the same level of success as MJ. Magic and Bird aren't as complete as Jordan and played on stacked teams. Lebron has too many failures and weaknesses in his game. Kobe was the number 2 option for a good part of his career. Duncan isn't as statistically dominant as Jordan and doesn't have as many accolades. Shaq underachieved and his career doesn't add up as well compared to Jordan. Kareem is close but he may have been a number 2 option at certain points of his career. Bill Russell had no offensive game. Too soon to say for Jokic and why is Curry in this poll? Steph Curry is not the GOAT basketball player. Not even Curry would tell you he is.

And honestly I don't see how Lebron is #2 on this poll. He has more flaws and weaknesses and failures than many of the other greats.

Interesting that skill is not really brought up in these debates. If you lay out all skills and athletic traits, you can see how big the gap is between the two.

Overall Scoring - Jordan
Overall Shooting - Jordan
Overall Defense - Jordan
Offensive post - Jordan
Handles - Jordan
Offensive rebounding - Jordan
Footwork - Jordan
Layup package - Jordan
Drawing fouls - Jordan
FT shooting - Jordan
Steals - Jordan
Offensive consistency - Jordan
Off the ball play - Jordan
Midrange - Jordan
Vertical - Jordan
Hangtime - Jordan
Durability - Jordan
Coachability - Jordan
Defensive consistency - Jordan
Shot blocking - Jordan
Defensive Rebounding - James
Overall Strength - James
Overall Passing - James