2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[OkcSinceSGA]

Nah, I'm not buying the voter fatigue narrative anymore. It's a complete disservice to SGA putting up the best two-way regular season since 2020 Giannis. SGA without OKC's 2nd (or 3rd if you wanna be nit-picky) best player has them steam-rolling the league to a +18.3 on-court net-rating and currently a 70-win pace. This is 2016 Curry, just not as flashy. These are quite literally MVP Lebron box numbers (30+ PER, .300+ WS/48, 11.8 BPM, easily on pace for 200+ Ts added). This is greatness we're witnessing. He's been every definition of a dominant MVP campaign, and there's no shame in Jokic being 2nd. At some point, results need to matter.

That's exactly what I am saying is insulting to me. Acting like SGA's only argument is that the Thunder are pacing 70 wins. Even if both won 50 games SGA has a great argument. So great post! Anyone know where SGA's +9 EPM ranks all time? I don't pay for full membership.

SGA is having an ATG season so obviously he has a great argument regardless of record. With that being said, SGA obviously wouldn't be such a clear favorite if the difference in record between the Thunder and Nuggets was minimal instead of a chasm. SGA might still be ahead, but it would probably be more like -125 SGA instead of -250 SGA

Agree. Without the record it's more of a coin flip because both are having arguably top 5-10 all time seasons statistically.

[OkcSinceSGA]

One thing none of us seem to have discussed before, including me is SGA's ballhandling. I RARELY see him unable to get to his spots, get by a defender with a cross, hesi etc.. and the ball is basically glued to his hands in terms of control. Where does he rank all time among superstar guards in ball handling? Like for example I don't think Jordan/Kobe/Curry etc are better ball handlers necessarily.

We know his driving, shot creation, midrange, defense but does his ball handling stand out as elite to you guys? Or more just not a weakness?

[scrabbarista]

Nah, I'm not buying the voter fatigue narrative anymore. It's a complete disservice to SGA putting up the best two-way regular season since 2020 Giannis. SGA without OKC's 2nd (or 3rd if you wanna be nit-picky) best player has them steam-rolling the league to a +18.3 on-court net-rating and currently a 70-win pace. This is 2016 Curry, just not as flashy. These are quite literally MVP Lebron box numbers (30+ PER, .300+ WS/48, 11.8 BPM, easily on pace for 200+ Ts added). This is greatness we're witnessing. He's been every definition of a dominant MVP campaign, and there's no shame in Jokic being 2nd. At some point, results need to matter.

You listed PER, and Jokic's is higher.

You listed BPM, and Jokic's is higher.

You listed ".300+WS," and Jokic's is also .300+, and was higher until this week.

You mentioned "+200" TS added. So is Jokic.

Your argument is basically "two-way" and "70 wins."

The On-Court metric obviously involves the other 80% of the line-ups in which players play.


We just saw the year before last that people voted for Embiid over Jokic, despite Embiid being worse relative to SGA (and obviously worse than Jokic that season).

Why would non-basketball factors determine voting the year before last but not play a role this year, when the same factors (i.e., people would prefer, if they think they can get away with it, not to vote for Jokic) are at play?

The fact that your response summarizes a player who is 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th in four of the five main counting stats in two words ("no shame") kind of proves my point that people have gotten used to him.

Yes, SGA deserves the MVP 40 games into the season. He's been amazing.


"2016 Curry" is where you get a bit silly and I think I start to understand there's some bias in your point of view. The Thunder didn't even have the best record this season, never mind the best of all time, until today, and now they are tied with Cleveland. If you meant "he's a a great guard with great teammates," then sure. Why not. I'm not going to dignify the comparison with a further response, though. Let's just say you're reaching.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Nah, I'm not buying the voter fatigue narrative anymore. It's a complete disservice to SGA putting up the best two-way regular season since 2020 Giannis. SGA without OKC's 2nd (or 3rd if you wanna be nit-picky) best player has them steam-rolling the league to a +18.3 on-court net-rating and currently a 70-win pace. This is 2016 Curry, just not as flashy. These are quite literally MVP Lebron box numbers (30+ PER, .300+ WS/48, 11.8 BPM, easily on pace for 200+ Ts added). This is greatness we're witnessing. He's been every definition of a dominant MVP campaign, and there's no shame in Jokic being 2nd. At some point, results need to matter.

You listed PER, and Jokic's is higher.

You listed BPM, and Jokic's is higher.

You listed ".300+WS," and Jokic's is also .300+, and was higher until this week.

You mentioned "+200" TS added. So is Jokic.

Your argument is basically "two-way" and "70 wins."

The On-Court metric obviously involves the other 80% of the line-ups in which players play.


We just saw the year before last that people voted for Embiid over Jokic, despite Embiid being worse relative to SGA (and obviously worse than Jokic that season).

Why would non-basketball factors determine voting the year before last but not play a role this year, when the same factors (i.e., people would prefer, if they think they can get away with it, not to vote for Jokic) are at play?

The fact that your response summarizes a player who is 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th in four of the five main counting stats in two words ("no shame") kind of proves my point that people have gotten used to him.

Yes, SGA deserves the MVP 40 games into the season. He's been amazing.


"2016 Curry" is where you get a bit silly and I think I start to understand there's some bias in your point of view. The Thunder didn't even have the best record this season, never mind the best of all time, until today, and now they are tied with Cleveland. If you meant "he's a a great guard with great teammates," then sure. Why not. I'm not going to dignify the comparison with a further response, though. Let's just say you're reaching.

They have switched positions on WS/48 recently a couple of times, but at the .300 tier each.. that basically places both in the top 5 ish all time seasons in recorded data history. SGA has led in EPM all year and RAPM if that's still worth anything (I know they messed with formula a couple times recently).

PS... I'm almost positive OKC finishes 2-3 wins better at least.

https://www.tankathon.com/remaining_schedule_strength

Cavs have 16th hardest remaining schedule, OKC has the 27th. OKC is getting Chet and Hart back likely in the next 7-10 days.

[Ron Swanson]

Completely divorcing how dominant the team is with them on the court and actual wins from that team's best player is precisely why so much of this MVP discourse has become impossible for me to engage in. Like, two guys having arguably Top-10 statistical seasons of all-time, (box metrics, lineup data, impact stats, the works), but whoa, I guess let's pump the breaks until the guy putting up equally bonkers numbers wins 70+ games? Absolutely absurd standards to hold SGA to, with the irony of course being painted like it's the other way around (and Jokic has set the bar high for good reason).

[Special_Puppy]

Completely divorcing how dominant the team is with them on the court and actual wins from that team's best player is precisely why so much of this MVP discourse has become impossible for me to engage in. Like, two guys having arguably Top-10 statistical seasons of all-time, (box metrics, lineup data, impact stats, the works), but whoa, I guess let's pump the breaks until the guy putting up equally bonkers numbers actually wins 70-games? Absolutely absurd standards to hold SGA to, with the irony of course being painted like it's the other way around (and Jokic has set the bar high for good reason).

Who is saying that SGA should have to win 64+ games in order for him to win MVP? People who think that SGA should win MVP are typically the ones bringing up team record and not people who think Jokic should win MVP

[OkcSinceSGA]

Read on Twitter

Maple Jordan is doing it in a less physical era BUT also on 4 less shot attempts per game.

[Woodsanity]

Read on Twitter

Two of the greatest seasons of all time.

His free throws have went down a lot. He had one season which seemed like an aberration where he almost had 11 fta. Now he only has 8 fta which is a pretty normal amount for his fga.

[RB34]

Read on Twitter

Two of the greatest seasons of all time.

His free throws have went down a lot. He had one season which seemed like an aberration where he almost had 11 fta. Now he only has 8 fta which is a pretty normal amount for his fga.

It’s because he plays for fouls a lot and he admits he plays for fouls.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Read on Twitter

Two of the greatest seasons of all time.

His free throws have went down a lot. He had one season which seemed like an aberration where he almost had 11 fta. Now he only has 8 fta which is a pretty normal amount for his fga.

It’s because he plays for fouls a lot and he admits he plays for fouls.

Well apparently it's not working out so well for him? When did he say he plays for fouls?

Read on Twitter

This was last night.

Read on Twitter

[RB34]

His free throws have went down a lot. He had one season which seemed like an aberration where he almost had 11 fta. Now he only has 8 fta which is a pretty normal amount for his fga.

It’s because he plays for fouls a lot and he admits he plays for fouls.

Well apparently it's not working out so well for him? When did he say he plays for fouls?

Read on Twitter

This was last night.

Read on Twitter

"And then I learned a few tricks through the trade along my way. I've turned it into a skill a little bit. As far as what people say, I don't really care. As long as it's efficient offense and my team wins, I'll get it done,"

Cool stat bro, I also just watched him score 27 points on 17 FTa.

[AleksandarN]

I still consider Jokic the superior player but its fine to have SGA over him right now MVP wise and I've been saying it for a while now.

I too have no problem with it either

[BigGargamel]

I still consider Jokic the superior player but its fine to have SGA over him right now MVP wise and I've been saying it for a while now.

I too have no problem with it either

As a Jokic fan (stop short of calling myself a Stan haha). I agree with this. SGA is the MVP.

Jokic is having the better individual statistical season though. But it is closer than I want to admit. Which is crazy, because I've never seen a season like Jokic in the 35 years I've been watching basketball. I watch every Nuggets game, and it's just hard to wrap my head around a season like this NOT being an MVP shoo-in. But SGA is having an All World season as well and the Thunder record is just too good to ignore.

Either Jokic or SGA would be a runaway MVP pretty much any other year.

The Thunder have a better roster top to bottom than the Nuggets do, but it's not like they are loaded with no doubt All Stars. I don't get people saying they have a super stacked roster. They really don't. It's just expertly put together. Every player plays a role and compliments the others. I am jealous of OKC's coaching though. So much better than anything Denver ever tries to do.

[Special_Puppy]

I still consider Jokic the superior player but its fine to have SGA over him right now MVP wise and I've been saying it for a while now.

I too have no problem with it either

As a Jokic fan (stop short of calling myself a Stan haha). I agree with this. SGA is the MVP.

Jokic is having the better individual statistical season though. But it is closer than I want to admit. Which is crazy, because I've never seen a season like Jokic in the 35 years I've been watching basketball. I watch every Nuggets game, and it's just hard to wrap my head around a season like this NOT being an MVP shoo-in. But SGA is having an All World season as well and the Thunder record is just too good to ignore.

Either Jokic or SGA would be a runaway MVP pretty much any other year.

The Thunder have a better roster top to bottom than the Nuggets do, but it's not like they are loaded with no doubt All Stars. I don't get people saying they have a super stacked roster. They really don't. It's just expertly put together. Every player plays a role and compliments the others. I am jealous of OKC's coaching though. So much better than anything Denver ever tries to do.

How many teams have a better supporting cast around their stars than the Thunder do now?

[BigGargamel]

I too have no problem with it either

As a Jokic fan (stop short of calling myself a Stan haha). I agree with this. SGA is the MVP.

Jokic is having the better individual statistical season though. But it is closer than I want to admit. Which is crazy, because I've never seen a season like Jokic in the 35 years I've been watching basketball. I watch every Nuggets game, and it's just hard to wrap my head around a season like this NOT being an MVP shoo-in. But SGA is having an All World season as well and the Thunder record is just too good to ignore.

Either Jokic or SGA would be a runaway MVP pretty much any other year.

The Thunder have a better roster top to bottom than the Nuggets do, but it's not like they are loaded with no doubt All Stars. I don't get people saying they have a super stacked roster. They really don't. It's just expertly put together. Every player plays a role and compliments the others. I am jealous of OKC's coaching though. So much better than anything Denver ever tries to do.

How many teams have a better supporting cast around their stars than the Thunder do now?

I mean, I love Jalen Williams but I would say "star" - meaning one on that team, at least until Chet can show he can stay healthy.

[Special_Puppy]

As a Jokic fan (stop short of calling myself a Stan haha). I agree with this. SGA is the MVP.

Jokic is having the better individual statistical season though. But it is closer than I want to admit. Which is crazy, because I've never seen a season like Jokic in the 35 years I've been watching basketball. I watch every Nuggets game, and it's just hard to wrap my head around a season like this NOT being an MVP shoo-in. But SGA is having an All World season as well and the Thunder record is just too good to ignore.

Either Jokic or SGA would be a runaway MVP pretty much any other year.

The Thunder have a better roster top to bottom than the Nuggets do, but it's not like they are loaded with no doubt All Stars. I don't get people saying they have a super stacked roster. They really don't. It's just expertly put together. Every player plays a role and compliments the others. I am jealous of OKC's coaching though. So much better than anything Denver ever tries to do.

How many teams have a better supporting cast around their stars than the Thunder do now?

I mean, I love Jalen Williams but I would say "star" - meaning one on that team, at least until Chet can show he can stay healthy.

Should have said “best player” instead of star.

[Jaqua92]

SGA's cocky attitude man, love it. All the makings of a player who isn't humble, and who isn't ready to win.

No one should be surprised this post season.

[Jaqua92]

I too have no problem with it either

As a Jokic fan (stop short of calling myself a Stan haha). I agree with this. SGA is the MVP.

Jokic is having the better individual statistical season though. But it is closer than I want to admit. Which is crazy, because I've never seen a season like Jokic in the 35 years I've been watching basketball. I watch every Nuggets game, and it's just hard to wrap my head around a season like this NOT being an MVP shoo-in. But SGA is having an All World season as well and the Thunder record is just too good to ignore.

Either Jokic or SGA would be a runaway MVP pretty much any other year.

The Thunder have a better roster top to bottom than the Nuggets do, but it's not like they are loaded with no doubt All Stars. I don't get people saying they have a super stacked roster. They really don't. It's just expertly put together. Every player plays a role and compliments the others. I am jealous of OKC's coaching though. So much better than anything Denver ever tries to do.

How many teams have a better supporting cast around their stars than the Thunder do now?

Just Boston, as indicated by them being the best team in the NBA by team EPM most of this season, only recently swapping that spot on a day to day basis during their recent skid. In terms of roster construction, it's Boston, OKC, then everyone else.

[Jaqua92]

It’s because he plays for fouls a lot and he admits he plays for fouls.

Well apparently it's not working out so well for him? When did he say he plays for fouls?

Read on Twitter

This was last night.

Read on Twitter

"And then I learned a few tricks through the trade along my way. I've turned it into a skill a little bit. As far as what people say, I don't really care. As long as it's efficient offense and my team wins, I'll get it done,"

Cool stat bro, I also just watched him score 27 points on 17 FTa.

People who say they don't care always care. Always always always.

[MaliBrah]

SGA's supporting cast looking formidably overwhelming without him of course.