MVP Rankings 1.0

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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#181 » by See5 » Tue Dec 1, 2009 11:07 pm

YLSKillaCam wrote:
2. Lebron's team is only third in the Eastern Conference and today they'd be tied for 6th overall. Gimme a break. When's the last time a MVP came from a guy who was on the 6th best team in the league? Last year, the Cavs were # 1 overall. Hard to see a guy winning MVP back to back when his team was much better last year and they have the same or upgraded personnel.

3. Kobe's defense has been superb and it has been better than Lebron's this season. The Lakers have the best opponent FG% of any team in the league and, relevant to Kobe, they have the best opponent 3 point FG %. Lakers don't foul a lot on 3 pointers, so it is worth mentioning that both Artest and Kobe are playing spectacular perimeter defense.

Very interesting points.

I wonder if voters will discount LeBron for not winning as many games as he did last year with an arguably superior team. I don't see the Cavs winning 66 this year and there's not guarantee they will finish #1 in the East either.

As for the Lakers, if they start developing a reputation for being a tough defensive team it's only going to help Kobe's cause, even if Artest is there.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#182 » by Dirk_diggler_41 » Tue Dec 1, 2009 11:22 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Duncan's playing less than 32mpg so his raw numbers are a less impressive 18/10/3.5/2, but look at his per 36:


Shouldn't a player, unless his team his blowing every team away, be punished for playing less minutes? If he misses 15 games, voters would punish him. If he ends up playing the equivalent of 15 less games than James or Kobe because of reduced minutes, shouldn't he be punished ?
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#183 » by YLSKillaCam » Tue Dec 1, 2009 11:50 pm

tracey_nice wrote:
CzBron wrote:What? I wasn't even arguing lebron should be the MVP now. I just hate the stupid notion YLSKillaCam (I think) presented that Kobe is some inherent champion while LeBron simply can't win. Like everything around them doesn't even matter.

Yeah but one dumb argument doesn't require another.


Please Tracey, what "dumb" argument have I made?
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#184 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Dec 2, 2009 12:12 am

Dirk_diggler_41 wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:Duncan's playing less than 32mpg so his raw numbers are a less impressive 18/10/3.5/2, but look at his per 36:


Shouldn't a player, unless his team his blowing every team away, be punished for playing less minutes? If he misses 15 games, voters would punish him. If he ends up playing the equivalent of 15 less games than James or Kobe because of reduced minutes, shouldn't he be punished ?


Sure, and that's why he shouldn't be voted on as highly as in the early 2000s when he was putting up those numbers straight up and why James and Kobe should still be ahead

But the point was more Duncan is having another extremely productive season, when on the surface because of the decision by Pop to save his energy, it would appear he's declined (and thus why nobody is talking about him) Thereby if the Spurs have a top 3-5 record he should still be up there in votes.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#185 » by Tesla » Wed Dec 2, 2009 1:53 am

YLSKillaCam wrote:The people talking about Gasol are silly. When Gasol came to the Lakers, he wasn't considered a Garnett or a Duncan. He wasn't even considered a top 15 player in the league. He was a 18/10 guy with great fundamentals, but was considered weak on defense and weak mentally. There's a bunch of guys that can get you 18/10 and wouldn't catupult you to a championship.

Also, to say that Lebron would've won a championship with Gasol is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. This isn't to say that he wouldn't, but to say that he would merely because Kobe was able to is ridiculous. There's so many factors that go into winning a championship. It is very difficult to win a championship even if you have a great great team.



Good post.

There is a ton of revisionist history when it comes to Gasol. Gasol was on the same level as Jermaine O'Neal at the time, between Laker fans it was O'Neal or Gasol? Many chose Jermaine because of defense, but many chose Gasol because of injuries... but make no mistake, they were CLEARLY regarded by the masses at the same level, and that is somewhere in the top 20-30 range. The reason people spazed out when the Lakers got Gasol is because 1). They didn't give up Odom or Bynum and 2). Pairing up one of, if not the best player in the league with a legit big man is devastating.

There were no guarantees that it would work, Kobe and Gasol don't get enough credit for that. How often to you have two talented players that don't work out, or an addition of a talented player that doesn't work out. They have awesome chemistry together.

And no, the whole replace x with y equals same result is a bad faulty equation. There is no way to assume Lebron instead of Kobe wins the championship for the Lakers, but there is a 100% certainty that Kobe does win the championship for the Lakers (last year).

As for the MVP race, nobody has cleared ahead of the pack yet... You have the typical candidates of last year in Lebron/Kobe and then you have Nash sneaking back in as a legit MVP candiate and Dirk... but others are not that far behind to make a case later in the season for themselves (Howard, Wade, Duncan, etc).
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#186 » by YLSKillaCam » Wed Dec 2, 2009 2:56 am

http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/ ... 1/kobe-top

These rankings are solid, though I'd have Nash at 2.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#187 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:13 am

YLSKillaCam wrote:
Your point about knowing Orlando would give you problems is pretty weak. Cleveland only played Orlando three times. They lost twice, but won at home and in one of the Orlando wins, Jameer was playing (you'll recall that he did not play against Cleveland in the postseason). Having only lost two games at home all year (with only one of those losses being legitimate), Cleveland should have been sitting pretty against Orlando. So I don't understand how you can extrapolate from their regular season matchups that Orlando would win a seven game series. It is pretty clear that Cleveland should've gotten past the Magic and being unwilling to admit that is sad.


It's clear? Really? It's sad that you genuinely believe the Cavs had the upper-hand in that series, and it's sad that you can't understand how bad the match-ups were from Cleveland.

We had nobody to defend Dwight Howard, nobody to defend Rashard Lewis. We had to put the 6'3 Delonte West on Turkoglu because Mike Brown thought the only way we could defend them was to have LeBron play "Free safety" and try and disrupt them defensively and have him cheat off of Rafer Alston to do it, because we didn't have the personnel to do it otherwise.

If it weren't for LeBron's heroics in game 2 and 5, and for his insane play overall, that series is NOWHERE near as close as it was and Orlando wipes us off the map.

The Magic matched up against the Cavs unbelievably well. If there was a team formulated to beat last years Cavs, Orlando was what it would be made to be.

By the way, that "home win" against Orlando in the regular season was a game that came down to the wire where LeBron needed to hit a 34 foot dagger to win it. They showed they could keep it close at the Q, and that plus a timely three by Rashard Lewis stole them game one and after the forty point shalacking we took in Orlando during the regular season, they had a pretty good grip on us at Amway(and have for years....we beat them at Amway already this year but before that the last win in Orlando was during a 40 point performance by Larry Hughes)


And to the guy who said Kobe replacing LeBron for the Orlando series would equal a Cavs victory....you're just plain wrong and there's no other way to think about it.

LeBron played out of his mind, hit a game winning shot in game two, picked Orlando apart by himself in game 5, saw his teammates get overpowered(Z), blown-by(Lewis), and miss WIDE-OPEN-SHOTS(Z, Mo). The only help LeBron had against Orlando was Delonte West.

Defensively, the Lakers had much better personnel to deal with Orlando. More length, more strength, more ability. Gasol was a beast in the finals. Derek Fisher played better than Mo Williams and it wasn't because Kobe used his telepathic powers to make the ball go into the basket.

Just, unbelievable. You can tell who the fans are that just fabricate theories and ideas about LeBron based off of their idiotic views on what transpired in the previous post-season.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#188 » by tracey_nice » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:14 am

YLSKillaCam wrote:
tracey_nice wrote:
CzBron wrote:What? I wasn't even arguing lebron should be the MVP now. I just hate the stupid notion YLSKillaCam (I think) presented that Kobe is some inherent champion while LeBron simply can't win. Like everything around them doesn't even matter.

Yeah but one dumb argument doesn't require another.


Please Tracey, what "dumb" argument have I made?

According to Czbron you did thats why hes making all his dumb points. Im not saying your making any stupid points, I havent read your argument.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#189 » by semi-sentient » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:30 am

Tesla wrote:Gasol was on the same level as Jermaine O'Neal at the time, between Laker fans it was O'Neal or Gasol? Many chose Jermaine because of defense, but many chose Gasol because of injuries... but make no mistake, they were CLEARLY regarded by the masses at the same level, and that is somewhere in the top 20-30 range. The reason people spazed out when the Lakers got Gasol is because 1). They didn't give up Odom or Bynum and 2). Pairing up one of, if not the best player in the league with a legit big man is devastating.


Man I had forgotten about that stuff. I used to write long-winded ass posts on the Lakers board trying to convince everyone why JO would be the best fit. I guess I just valued his defense more and somehow thought he would magically heal. I was convinced that JO's efficiency would shoot through the roof as well (like it's happened with Gasol). Thank the imaginary friend for adults that we got Gasol instead!
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#190 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:35 am

semi-sentient wrote:
Tesla wrote:Gasol was on the same level as Jermaine O'Neal at the time, between Laker fans it was O'Neal or Gasol? Many chose Jermaine because of defense, but many chose Gasol because of injuries... but make no mistake, they were CLEARLY regarded by the masses at the same level, and that is somewhere in the top 20-30 range. The reason people spazed out when the Lakers got Gasol is because 1). They didn't give up Odom or Bynum and 2). Pairing up one of, if not the best player in the league with a legit big man is devastating.


Man I had forgotten about that stuff. I used to write long-winded ass posts on the Lakers board trying to convince everyone why JO would be the best fit. I guess I just valued his defense more and somehow thought he would magically heal. I was convinced that JO's efficiency would shoot through the roof as well (like it's happened with Gasol). Thank the imaginary friend for adults that we got Gasol instead!


In your defense, a prime J O Neal was probably just as valuable as Gasol is today. Dude was a beast. It's a shame what injuries did to him.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#191 » by poopdamoop » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:42 am

So this is going to be another season where no matter what LeBron does, if Kobe finishes even one game ahead, he'll have the MVP wrapped up?

That's sad.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#192 » by Inhuman » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:48 am

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:
Your point about knowing Orlando would give you problems is pretty weak. Cleveland only played Orlando three times. They lost twice, but won at home and in one of the Orlando wins, Jameer was playing (you'll recall that he did not play against Cleveland in the postseason). Having only lost two games at home all year (with only one of those losses being legitimate), Cleveland should have been sitting pretty against Orlando. So I don't understand how you can extrapolate from their regular season matchups that Orlando would win a seven game series. It is pretty clear that Cleveland should've gotten past the Magic and being unwilling to admit that is sad.


It's clear? Really? It's sad that you genuinely believe the Cavs had the upper-hand in that series, and it's sad that you can't understand how bad the match-ups were from Cleveland.

We had nobody to defend Dwight Howard, nobody to defend Rashard Lewis. We had to put the 6'3 Delonte West on Turkoglu because Mike Brown thought the only way we could defend them was to have LeBron play "Free safety" and try and disrupt them defensively and have him cheat off of Rafer Alston to do it, because we didn't have the personnel to do it otherwise.

If it weren't for LeBron's heroics in game 2 and 5, and for his insane play overall, that series is NOWHERE near as close as it was and Orlando wipes us off the map.

The Magic matched up against the Cavs unbelievably well. If there was a team formulated to beat last years Cavs, Orlando was what it would be made to be.

By the way, that "home win" against Orlando in the regular season was a game that came down to the wire where LeBron needed to hit a 34 foot dagger to win it. They showed they could keep it close at the Q, and that plus a timely three by Rashard Lewis stole them game one and after the forty point shalacking we took in Orlando during the regular season, they had a pretty good grip on us at Amway(and have for years....we beat them at Amway already this year but before that the last win in Orlando was during a 40 point performance by Larry Hughes)


And to the guy who said Kobe replacing LeBron for the Orlando series would equal a Cavs victory....you're just plain wrong and there's no other way to think about it.

LeBron played out of his mind, hit a game winning shot in game two, picked Orlando apart by himself in game 5, saw his teammates get overpowered(Z), blown-by(Lewis), and miss WIDE-OPEN-SHOTS(Z, Mo). The only help LeBron had against Orlando was Delonte West.

Defensively, the Lakers had much better personnel to deal with Orlando. More length, more strength, more ability. Gasol was a beast in the finals. Derek Fisher played better than Mo Williams and it wasn't because Kobe used his telepathic powers to make the ball go into the basket.

Just, unbelievable. You can tell who the fans are that just fabricate theories and ideas about LeBron based off of their idiotic views on what transpired in the previous post-season.



Inhuman wrote:I think Lebron had alot to do with the cavs not making the finals.
First off he had the whole team believing that they were the best team in the nba by far and that they should just cruise into the finals and championship too. You could hear/see it in their interviews and body language/mannerisms, pre game, during and after.
Second i watched every cavs game in the playoffs. Lebron and the cavs style of play was/is VERY predictable. Any good team worth a damn can look at take and try to counter what lebron and the cavs do every damn time. I dont know if its lebron or mike brown who is to blame. Maybe a combination of both.
90+% of the time(doesnt matter who the cavs play) Who ever on the cavs gets the rebound, it is quickly passed to lebron. He then proceeds to dribble the ball at the top of the key from 10 to 20 seconds. Pretty much trying to play 1 on 5 most of the time.
He then does 1 of 2 things. He either takes a 3 or a contested 2 or he tries to drive in for a lay up and most likely try to get fouled or get the call regardless. Once in a while he will dish it out to an obvious open guy for an easy catch and shoot assist.
This is pretty mush how the cavs play all the time. Its not a stretch to think a good team can see this in the tapes and devise a game plan to counter this type of play.
Also about kobe. He was dead serious the whole playoffs. He had his team in the same mindset. He was on a mission. Even when LA had 1 more game to win to be champs the lakers still said "we have not won anything yet". In contrast before being eliminated the cavs were dancing celebrating after each dunk or nice play and pretty much after each win. I put the blame on lebron for not being 100% focused thus his teammates not being focused as well.
You could tell that Lebron was pretty much going for personal glory in the playoffs. Always going all out to make his stats inflated. you pretty much knew what lebron was going to do the whole game.
If you watched the laker games in the playoffs, you never knew what kobe was going to do. he played a bit different each series, even different each game. Sometimes he came out aggressive, other times he got his teammates involved early to take over later, etc. He adjusted to the situation.
LA played every opponent differently. Cavs did not.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#193 » by YLSKillaCam » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:49 am

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:
Your point about knowing Orlando would give you problems is pretty weak. Cleveland only played Orlando three times. They lost twice, but won at home and in one of the Orlando wins, Jameer was playing (you'll recall that he did not play against Cleveland in the postseason). Having only lost two games at home all year (with only one of those losses being legitimate), Cleveland should have been sitting pretty against Orlando. So I don't understand how you can extrapolate from their regular season matchups that Orlando would win a seven game series. It is pretty clear that Cleveland should've gotten past the Magic and being unwilling to admit that is sad.


It's clear? Really? It's sad that you genuinely believe the Cavs had the upper-hand in that series, and it's sad that you can't understand how bad the match-ups were from Cleveland.

We had nobody to defend Dwight Howard, nobody to defend Rashard Lewis. We had to put the 6'3 Delonte West on Turkoglu because Mike Brown thought the only way we could defend them was to have LeBron play "Free safety" and try and disrupt them defensively and have him cheat off of Rafer Alston to do it, because we didn't have the personnel to do it otherwise.

If it weren't for LeBron's heroics in game 2 and 5, and for his insane play overall, that series is NOWHERE near as close as it was and Orlando wipes us off the map.

The Magic matched up against the Cavs unbelievably well. If there was a team formulated to beat last years Cavs, Orlando was what it would be made to be.

By the way, that "home win" against Orlando in the regular season was a game that came down to the wire where LeBron needed to hit a 34 foot dagger to win it. They showed they could keep it close at the Q, and that plus a timely three by Rashard Lewis stole them game one and after the forty point shalacking we took in Orlando during the regular season, they had a pretty good grip on us at Amway(and have for years....we beat them at Amway already this year but before that the last win in Orlando was during a 40 point performance by Larry Hughes)


And to the guy who said Kobe replacing LeBron for the Orlando series would equal a Cavs victory....you're just plain wrong and there's no other way to think about it.

LeBron played out of his mind, hit a game winning shot in game two, picked Orlando apart by himself in game 5, saw his teammates get overpowered(Z), blown-by(Lewis), and miss WIDE-OPEN-SHOTS(Z, Mo). The only help LeBron had against Orlando was Delonte West.

Defensively, the Lakers had much better personnel to deal with Orlando. More length, more strength, more ability. Gasol was a beast in the finals. Derek Fisher played better than Mo Williams and it wasn't because Kobe used his telepathic powers to make the ball go into the basket.

Just, unbelievable. You can tell who the fans are that just fabricate theories and ideas about LeBron based off of their idiotic views on what transpired in the previous post-season.


You predicted the Cavs to roll to victory against Orlando at the time. I remember your posts. You also predicted the Cavs to win the championship.

I call them as I see them. I thought Lebron was MVP last season. I think Kobe is MVP so far this season.

You're the one who changes your arguments to support whatever position would best support Lebron. You even go so far as to try to mask your bias like when you "picked" Kobe as the MVP two weeks ago, but it is pretty clear what your agenda is.

And I have no need to revise what happened. I remember the prediction threads. It was almost unanimous that people picked the Cavs over Orlando. In fact, the few posters who picked Orlando were ridiculed and Charles Barkley was called an idiot all over this board. I'm not making this up.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#194 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:01 am

YLSKillaCam wrote:
You predicted the Cavs to roll to victory against Orlando at the time. I remember your posts. You also predicted the Cavs to win the championship.

I call them as I see them. I thought Lebron was MVP last season. I think Kobe is MVP so far this season.

You're the one who changes your arguments to support whatever position would best support Lebron. You even go so far as to try to mask your bias like when you "picked" Kobe as the MVP two weeks ago, but it is pretty clear what your agenda is.

And I have no need to revise what happened. I remember the prediction threads. It was almost unanimous that people picked the Cavs over Orlando. In fact, the few posters who picked Orlando were ridiculed and Charles Barkley was called an idiot all over this board. I'm not making this up.


You are absolutely right, I did predict the Cavs to beat Orlando, and it was a terrible mis-cue on my part. I didn't realize how devastating the match-up advantages were.

I thought Mo Williams would have had a positive impact. I was wrong.

I thought we'd beat Orlando in every close game because of LeBron and their lack of a closer, I was wrong(despite LeBron's heroics, R. Lewis hit a bunch of amazingly clutch shots that I didn't see coming).

I thought Z would be an asset offensively, and he wasn't.

I also didn't predict Mickael Pietrus to go insane, hit basically every shot he took, and outscore our entire bench combined.

Tried to MASK my bias? No, I thought Kobe was the MVP two weeks ago because I was having big problems with LeBron's effort during games. In the past two weeks, LeBron's effort has picked up considerably and he's been phenomenal, better than Kobe.

Hollinger said it the best after the series "I can't believe I ignored these insane match-up advantages that Orlando used to beat Cleveland".
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#195 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:18 am

Inhuman wrote:I think Lebron had alot to do with the cavs not making the finals.
First off he had the whole team believing that they were the best team in the nba by far and that they should just cruise into the finals and championship too. You could hear/see it in their interviews and body language/mannerisms, pre game, during and after.

It's called friendship, camaraderie, and team chemistry. Having the team believe they were good is a GOOD thing, it generally instills confidence and makes a team perform better.



You could tell that Lebron was pretty much going for personal glory in the playoffs. Always going all out to make his stats inflated. you pretty much knew what lebron was going to do the whole game.
If you watched the laker games in the playoffs, you never knew what kobe was going to do. he played a bit different each series, even different each game. Sometimes he came out aggressive, other times he got his teammates involved early to take over later, etc. He adjusted to the situation.
LA played every opponent differently. Cavs did not.


You can only "tell" this is you were sitting on your couch in a #24 jersey during the NBA finals. Please, this is unbelievably ridiculous. If LeBron was going for "personal glory", he wouldn't have been so upset about the loss after the fact. He gave it his all to win that series, and his teammates didn't do anything to have his back no matter how many times he had theirs in a tough spot.

As for your "play-style" argument. It's pretty simple why the Cavs' offense last year seemed to rely so much on LeBron, especially in the playoffs. Here's why.

(Note: all of these stipulations are for what happened during the Orlando series)
Mo Williams either gets a pick, then takes the for a floater or a mid-range jumper.

When he attempted this during the Orlando series, he turned the ball over and clanked his shots. One particularly terrible stretch was when LeBron was sitting and the Magic made up half of a 20 point deficit running off of Mo's failed attempts at offense.

LeBron HAS to handle the ball. He has to make things happen for everyone else because last year in the playoffs we had nobody else who could make things happen.

You know why the Lakers looked so great and you "never knew what Kobe was going to do?"

It's because when Kobe throws the ball down into the post he can throw it to a guy like Pau Gasol, who's going to make something positive happen. He'll score,d raw a double, get to the line, get the ball moving.

If LeBron threw the ball down in the post..I suppose he could send it to Z. Who would then subsequently get pushed out of the lane by Rashard Lewis and either take a terrible hook shot that only goes in if the rim is feeling generous or a turn-around fade-away that hits at about a 25% rate of success.

I guess LeBron could have thrown it down to Ben Wallace to get the offense going...oh wait...

Maybe the 34 year old Joe Smith was going to take it at Howard in the post. Joe Smith was gonna create and make things happen, maybe they should have tried that(I'm too lazy to use green font).

I guess if LeBron threw it to Varejao he would have done something. (That something is a brazilian crab dribble followed by a triple spin reverse lay-up with his off-hand going away from the basket...great recipe for success)

The only guy that made any contribution offensively on his own besides LeBron was Delonte West. So, LeBron had Delonte West as the guy who was capable of making something happen with the ball in his hands. Kobe had Gasol, Odom, even Bynum to a lesser extent.

Another problem stemmed from this: when Derek Fisher or Trevor Ariza received a pass for a wide open or important shot, they DRAINED it.

When Mo Williams and Wally Szczerbiak received those same wide open shots, they clanked off the rim time and time again.

You can't blame LeBron for that. How is he supposed to make an offensive system work when his second option disappears and he has no bigs who can create any type of offense for themselves or others? The only option for the Cavs to score was to go to Le-Iso, and they did, and it resulted in them scoring 100PPG, and they STILL lost because they weren't able to match-up defensively. They won two games in the series, the first being on "LeShot", and the second being on LeBron getting the ball at the FT line and picking Orlando apart and producing 25 straight points for the Cavs.

We went to overtime once thanks to LeBron's play down the stretch in the fourth quarter. In that overtime period, a foul-plagued Anderson Varejao was too worried about fouling out so he let Dwight Howard dunk the ball 5 times in a row.

LeBron gets no blame for that series. NONE. 0. Zilch. I mean, even suggesting it was his fault they lost is so asinine it's not even imaginable how dumb you must be to actually believe that.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#196 » by Inhuman » Wed Dec 2, 2009 5:22 am

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:
Inhuman wrote:I think Lebron had alot to do with the cavs not making the finals.
First off he had the whole team believing that they were the best team in the nba by far and that they should just cruise into the finals and championship too. You could hear/see it in their interviews and body language/mannerisms, pre game, during and after.

It's called friendship, camaraderie, and team chemistry. Having the team believe they were good is a GOOD thing, it generally instills confidence and makes a team perform better.



You could tell that Lebron was pretty much going for personal glory in the playoffs. Always going all out to make his stats inflated. you pretty much knew what lebron was going to do the whole game.
If you watched the laker games in the playoffs, you never knew what kobe was going to do. he played a bit different each series, even different each game. Sometimes he came out aggressive, other times he got his teammates involved early to take over later, etc. He adjusted to the situation.
LA played every opponent differently. Cavs did not.


You can only "tell" this is you were sitting on your couch in a #24 jersey during the NBA finals. Please, this is unbelievably ridiculous. If LeBron was going for "personal glory", he wouldn't have been so upset about the loss after the fact. He gave it his all to win that series, and his teammates didn't do anything to have his back no matter how many times he had theirs in a tough spot.

As for your "play-style" argument. It's pretty simple why the Cavs' offense last year seemed to rely so much on LeBron, especially in the playoffs. Here's why.

(Note: all of these stipulations are for what happened during the Orlando series)
Mo Williams either gets a pick, then takes the for a floater or a mid-range jumper.

When he attempted this during the Orlando series, he turned the ball over and clanked his shots. One particularly terrible stretch was when LeBron was sitting and the Magic made up half of a 20 point deficit running off of Mo's failed attempts at offense.

LeBron HAS to handle the ball. He has to make things happen for everyone else because last year in the playoffs we had nobody else who could make things happen.

You know why the Lakers looked so great and you "never knew what Kobe was going to do?"

It's because when Kobe throws the ball down into the post he can throw it to a guy like Pau Gasol, who's going to make something positive happen. He'll score,d raw a double, get to the line, get the ball moving.

If LeBron threw the ball down in the post..I suppose he could send it to Z. Who would then subsequently get pushed out of the lane by Rashard Lewis and either take a terrible hook shot that only goes in if the rim is feeling generous or a turn-around fade-away that hits at about a 25% rate of success.

I guess LeBron could have thrown it down to Ben Wallace to get the offense going...oh wait...

Maybe the 34 year old Joe Smith was going to take it at Howard in the post. Joe Smith was gonna create and make things happen, maybe they should have tried that(I'm too lazy to use green font).

I guess if LeBron threw it to Varejao he would have done something. (That something is a brazilian crab dribble followed by a triple spin reverse lay-up with his off-hand going away from the basket...great recipe for success)

The only guy that made any contribution offensively on his own besides LeBron was Delonte West. So, LeBron had Delonte West as the guy who was capable of making something happen with the ball in his hands. Kobe had Gasol, Odom, even Bynum to a lesser extent.

Another problem stemmed from this: when Derek Fisher or Trevor Ariza received a pass for a wide open or important shot, they DRAINED it.

When Mo Williams and Wally Szczerbiak received those same wide open shots, they clanked off the rim time and time again.

You can't blame LeBron for that. How is he supposed to make an offensive system work when his second option disappears and he has no bigs who can create any type of offense for themselves or others? The only option for the Cavs to score was to go to Le-Iso, and they did, and it resulted in them scoring 100PPG, and they STILL lost because they weren't able to match-up defensively. They won two games in the series, the first being on "LeShot", and the second being on LeBron getting the ball at the FT line and picking Orlando apart and producing 25 straight points for the Cavs.

We went to overtime once thanks to LeBron's play down the stretch in the fourth quarter. In that overtime period, a foul-plagued Anderson Varejao was too worried about fouling out so he let Dwight Howard dunk the ball 5 times in a row.

LeBron gets no blame for that series. NONE. 0. Zilch. I mean, even suggesting it was his fault they lost is so asinine it's not even imaginable how dumb you must be to actually believe that.



Thank you for reiterating my points. The fact of the matter is that you cannot win a ring trying to do it all yourself. Lebron trying to hog the ball or have the ball in his hands most of the time was not the best or smartest thing to do. There is no way for his teammates to get into any type of a rhythm.
The cavs didnt get the best record in the league because lebron did it all. Lebron suddenly forgot he had teammates in the playoffs. Especially in the Orlando series. It had nothing to do with his teammates sucking. Every player has bad games, but lebron just lost faith in them instead of working with them and trying to get them into the game or rhythm.
Dont tell me lebron HAD to have the ball in his hands because his teammates sucked. Thats nonsense. If thats the case then he is a horrible team leader. Kobe had way worst players a few years back and even he knew that him scoring 50 a game was not going to beat the Suns. If Kobe got smush parker, luke walton, kwame brown, devin george involved in the game enough to almost beat the suns then I dont see why Lebron couldnt do the same with superior players.
You thinking Lebron had ZERO blame is hilarious and pathetic at the same time. wow. :-?

also...you keep talking about how the cavs could not match up with the orlando. That may be true to some extent, but mike brown did nothing about it. The cavs kept playing in their usual predictable way instead of adjusting their game to their weaknesses. Van gundy also out coached the so called coach of the year.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#197 » by Benedict_Boozer » Wed Dec 2, 2009 5:40 am

Why are people debating last years playoff series in a thread about THIS YEAR'S MVP Award?

MVP = regular season. Has nothing to do with past playoff success or projected future playoff success. See Dirk when he won and went out in the 1st round, Nash who won 2 despite not getting to the finals, etc.

This isn't supposed to be another Lebron vs Kobe "who is better thread", at least I hope not.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#198 » by InBoobieWeTrust » Wed Dec 2, 2009 5:42 am

Inhuman wrote:
Thank you for reiterating my points. The fact of the matter is that you cannot win a ring trying to do it all yourself. Lebron trying to hog the ball or have the ball in his hands most of the time was not the best or smartest thing to do. There is no way for his teammates to get into any type of a rhythm.

There's no way for them to get in a rhythm with the ball in their hands, because they CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH THE BALL IN THEIR HANDS. The exceptions are Delonte West(who had a good series) and Mo Williams(who just sucked in every aspect....when he had the ball he failed, when he had wide open shots h failed..you can't blame LeBron for that)


The cavs didnt get the best record in the league because lebron did it all. Lebron suddenly forgot he had teammates in the playoffs. Especially in the Orlando series. It had nothing to do with his teammates sucking. Every player has bad games, but lebron just lost faith in them instead of working with them and trying to get them into the game or rhythm.

You're just wrong.
The Cavs had the best record because they played insanely good defense, because they made open shots, because Mo Williams successfully ran the second unit, and because LeBron was insanely good.

Against Orlando, we couldn't defend them due to personnel, so our biggest team strength was gone.

It had EVERYTHING to do with his teammates sucking. When he found Mo Williams for the SAME OPEN SHOTS he made during the regular season, Mo Williams missed those shots. When Mo Williams handled the ball, he turned it over and missed his shots. Our second unit got DOMINATED, because nobody besides LeBron could do anything.

We lost that series because players missed shots, we couldn't defend Orlando/they got amazingly hot from three.


Dont tell me lebron HAD to have the ball in his hands because his teammates sucked. Thats nonsense. If thats the case them he is a horrible team leader.

He DID. I outlined it for you. Pay attention. None of our bigs could create their own shot. No post presence. Mo Williams HIMSELF admits that he played badly in the ECF because he just didn't have experience and didn't do the things he normally did. He missed all of his self-created shots. He didn't create anything for anyone and we gave him opportunities. We gave him an opportunity and we lost half of a 20 point lead because he turned the ball over twice and missed multiple shot attempts that he created for himself.

Saying he's a horrible team leader is probably the dumbest thing you've said in your entire post of stupid. What, is he supposed to develop Ben Wallace's post-game? Is he supposed to use magical powers to make the ball go in the basket? Should he have put superglue on Mo's hands for when LeBron sat down?


LeBron was the only one not named Delonte West who could do anything competent in the Orlando series offensively. Delonte got the ball accordingly and played well.

Like I said, Mo was a guy who got a lot of spot-up looks from Bron, and who made his own shot off the dribble by taking jumpers after running the pick and roll if the defender went under, and going for a floater if they chased. He shot the same jumpers and floaters that made him and us successful in the regular season...problem was...they didn't go in.

Kobe had way worst players a few years back and even he knew that him scoring 50 a game was not going to beat the Suns. If Kobe got smush parker, luke walton, kwame brown, devin george involved in the game enough to almost beat the suns then I dont see why Lebron couldnt do the same with superior players.


LeBron got Sasha Pavlovic, an Old Eric Snow, a hobbled Larry Hughes, and a rookie Boobie Gibson to the NBA finals.

And yes, let's talk about the Suns series. You love to talk about bad leadership and you bring up the series where Kobe literally refused to shoot the basketball in the second half of game seven because of how much of a prima-donna he was? Should LeBron have done that? Would that have made him a better team leader? Refusing to shoot and watching his lesser teammates crumble?

If refusing to shoot and sabotaging your own team is "getting your teammates involved", then I'm glad LeBron doesn't do that.

If you're trying to make a case for Kobe, I can't believe you'd bring up the Phoenix series. You're making this too easy for me, dude.



And regardless of all of that, this is about the REGULAR season this year, and LeBron's been the MVP so far. That's all I'm going to say about the Orlando series, because I've spelled it out for you completely and if you choose to ignore the truth, I can't stop you from being ignorant.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#199 » by Inhuman » Wed Dec 2, 2009 5:50 am

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:
Inhuman wrote:
Thank you for reiterating my points. The fact of the matter is that you cannot win a ring trying to do it all yourself. Lebron trying to hog the ball or have the ball in his hands most of the time was not the best or smartest thing to do. There is no way for his teammates to get into any type of a rhythm.

There's no way for them to get in a rhythm with the ball in their hands, because they CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH THE BALL IN THEIR HANDS. The exceptions are Delonte West(who had a good series) and Mo Williams(who just sucked in every aspect....when he had the ball he failed, when he had wide open shots h failed..you can't blame LeBron for that)


The cavs didnt get the best record in the league because lebron did it all. Lebron suddenly forgot he had teammates in the playoffs. Especially in the Orlando series. It had nothing to do with his teammates sucking. Every player has bad games, but lebron just lost faith in them instead of working with them and trying to get them into the game or rhythm.

You're just wrong.
The Cavs had the best record because they played insanely good defense, because they made open shots, because Mo Williams successfully ran the second unit, and because LeBron was insanely good.

Against Orlando, we couldn't defend them due to personnel, so our biggest team strength was gone.

It had EVERYTHING to do with his teammates sucking. When he found Mo Williams for the SAME OPEN SHOTS he made during the regular season, Mo Williams missed those shots. When Mo Williams handled the ball, he turned it over and missed his shots. Our second unit got DOMINATED, because nobody besides LeBron could do anything.

We lost that series because players missed shots, we couldn't defend Orlando/they got amazingly hot from three.


Dont tell me lebron HAD to have the ball in his hands because his teammates sucked. Thats nonsense. If thats the case them he is a horrible team leader.

He DID. I outlined it for you. Pay attention. None of our bigs could create their own shot. No post presence. Mo Williams HIMSELF admits that he played badly in the ECF because he just didn't have experience and didn't do the things he normally did. He missed all of his self-created shots. He didn't create anything for anyone and we gave him opportunities. We gave him an opportunity and we lost half of a 20 point lead because he turned the ball over twice and missed multiple shot attempts that he created for himself.

Saying he's a horrible team leader is probably the dumbest thing you've said in your entire post of stupid. What, is he supposed to develop Ben Wallace's post-game? Is he supposed to use magical powers to make the ball go in the basket? Should he have put superglue on Mo's hands for when LeBron sat down?


LeBron was the only one not named Delonte West who could do anything competent in the Orlando series offensively. Delonte got the ball accordingly and played well.

Like I said, Mo was a guy who got a lot of spot-up looks from Bron, and who made his own shot off the dribble by taking jumpers after running the pick and roll if the defender went under, and going for a floater if they chased. He shot the same jumpers and floaters that made him and us successful in the regular season...problem was...they didn't go in.

Kobe had way worst players a few years back and even he knew that him scoring 50 a game was not going to beat the Suns. If Kobe got smush parker, luke walton, kwame brown, devin george involved in the game enough to almost beat the suns then I dont see why Lebron couldnt do the same with superior players.


LeBron got Sasha Pavlovic, an Old Eric Snow, a hobbled Larry Hughes, and a rookie Boobie Gibson to the NBA finals.

And yes, let's talk about the Suns series. You love to talk about bad leadership and you bring up the series where Kobe literally refused to shoot the basketball in the second half of game seven because of how much of a prima-donna he was? Should LeBron have done that? Would that have made him a better team leader? Refusing to shoot and watching his lesser teammates crumble?

If refusing to shoot and sabotaging your own team is "getting your teammates involved", then I'm glad LeBron doesn't do that.

If you're trying to make a case for Kobe, I can't believe you'd bring up the Phoenix series. You're making this too easy for me, dude.



And regardless of all of that, this is about the REGULAR season this year, and LeBron's been the MVP so far. That's all I'm going to say about the Orlando series, because I've spelled it out for you completely and if you choose to ignore the truth, I can't stop you from being ignorant.


Ignorant is saying Lebron had ZERO blame for losing the orlando series. Thats laughable. I watched the games. But i didnt have homer goggles on like you do.
But whatever. im done discussing last years playoffs.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#200 » by Wile E. Coyote » Wed Dec 2, 2009 12:29 pm

I think LA is going to win at least five more games than Cleveland this year, so LeBron's going to have to have some monster stats to get on top of Kobe. I'm guessing Kobe's going to average around 27/5/5 this year on 48%/34%/86% shooting.

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