2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[K_chile22]

Harden should be taking it easy (along with the rest of the team) right now. The only reason he is playing through injury is cause the MVP race. I believe this is detrimental to the team because everyone knows that they are only really playing to get Harden the MVP. Houston has nothing to play for right now. My bet is that they are losing their edge by this sideshow.

Well apparently the injury is something that won't completely heal this season weather he plays or not, and there isn't a big chance of re injury, so it doesn't really matter

[The Box Office]

Look at all the players in league history that have replicated a 29/11/8 season. Clearly not impressive.

And look at the players replicating Russ Westbrook in NBA history. No one has done that before. Zero. That's Unicorn stuff.

[K_chile22]

Look at all the players in league history that have replicated a 29/11/8 season. Clearly not impressive.

Hell , look at the players who have replicated 25-10 with 60% TS:

James Harden

That's it.
That was a lousy argument

[K_chile22]

Look at all the players in league history that have replicated a 29/11/8 season. Clearly not impressive.

And look at the players replicating Russ Westbrook in NBA history. No one has done that before. Zero. That's Unicorn stuff.

Ummm. You do know that's not true. Right?

[The Box Office]

You're a Rockets fan. I'm not here to change your mind. You're dead set on giving Harden the MVP no matter what. Just like Trump supporters. No one player in NBA history has averaged a triple double while leading the league in scoring. This has never been done. Are you giving me alternative facts?

Looking up basketball reference, Oscar Robertson, in 1962, 30.8 points, 11.4 assists, and 12.5 rebounds for 79 games. That's incredible. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50.4 points. No, Oscar Robertson did not led the league in scoring when he was getting his triple double.

My point still stands.

[K_chile22]

You're a Rockets fan. I'm not here to change your mind. You're dead set on giving Harden the MVP no matter what. Just like Trump supporters.

There's an argument to be made for Russ, for sure. It's just not that one. That was a bad one.
Your post basically came down to 'Russ scores more so he's obviously better'

[cpower]

It's all comes down to what do you value most, team success vs personal production.

Harden boosted the rockets offense from 7th last year to 2nd this year and he should get most of the praise. It's a great system D'Antoni created but only a few player in the history of the league could anchor that and Harden was one of them.

Westbrook's production was off the chart but if you look at their team numbers, the reason they are winning is on the defensive end. Defense still wins games, all top 10 defense team in the west are playoff teams..OKC, MEM, Jazz included. OKC went from 13th last year (with KD ) to 9th this year and I am not sure how much of that gain is from Westbrook. Oladipo, Roberson are underrated defenders which allows Westbrook to do his things on the other end.

I am giving my vote to Harden, with Westbrook being slightly behind.

[The Box Office]

You're a Rockets fan. I'm not here to change your mind. You're dead set on giving Harden the MVP no matter what. Just like Trump supporters.

There's an argument to be made for Russ, for sure. It's just not that one. That was a bad one.
Your post basically came down to 'Russ scores more so he's obviously better'

Nope. I know you can read. I keep mentioning "triple double." You feel that my post came down to Russ being the better scorer. It's ok. Again, you're a Rockets fan and Harden booster. That's fine.

The Rockets are only the 3rd best team in the NBA. They have to be the best team record wise for me to hand it to Harden in comparison to what Russ is doing.

Being the number one team in wins usually pushes me to give it to the best player on that team ONLY WHEN the player is in huge MVP talks. Hence, I'm not mentioning Steph Curry and LeBron. No one on San Antonio stands out either.

[ChartFiction]

Westbrook is the MVP to me. The hate he gets is so weird. He'll carry his team to a win with ridiculous numbers like 57/11/12 or whatever it was and people still say things like "what a statpadder." He's carried a team full of roleplayers to almost a .600 record. He's turned it up even more in this late stretch, getting a triple double almost every game and his team is 8-2 in the last 10.

As far as scoring efficiency, he has a 55.2% TS which is very respectable. Yet people act like he's just out chucking his team out of games. It's so odd to me the hate he gets. Highest PER by far in the league. Every other advanced stat, he's leading or among the top. You look at game logs and he leads both teams in all stats quite often. You can make the case for Harden too. It has to be one of those two like most people knew all along, but I think Westbrook should get it.

[Woodsanity]

The Thunder would be a bottom 3 offense without WB tbh.

[BeatDaCavs420]

I guess I am the only who sees it as no debate that Westbrook should be the MVP

[NyKnicks1714]

It's all comes down to what do you value most, team success vs personal production.

Not really. Harden's personal production is right there with Westbrook's.

[Andre Roberstan]

The Thunder would be a bottom 3 offense without WB tbh.

That's an offense to bottom 3 offenses. Oladipo would be the only semi-competent playmaker on the roster. Nick Collison would be our best passer.

That would not be pretty to watch.

[ocelot17]

The Thunder would be a bottom 3 offense without WB tbh.

That's an offense to bottom 3 offenses. Oladipo would be the only semi-competent playmaker on the roster. Nick Collison would be our best passer.

That would not be pretty to watch.

You can say that about any superstar. Sorry, don't buy that excuse.

[Woodsanity]

The Thunder would be a bottom 3 offense without WB tbh.

That's an offense to bottom 3 offenses. Oladipo would be the only semi-competent playmaker on the roster. Nick Collison would be our best passer.

That would not be pretty to watch.

You can say that about any superstar. Sorry, don't buy that excuse.

That wouldn't be the case for the Rockets, Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors, etc.

Rockets and Cavs would be a lot worse but they wouldn't be anywhere near a bottom 3 offense.

I am not buying what you are selling sorry.

[harrybobarry]

That's an offense to bottom 3 offenses. Oladipo would be the only semi-competent playmaker on the roster. Nick Collison would be our best passer.

That would not be pretty to watch.

You can say that about any superstar. Sorry, don't buy that excuse.

That wouldn't be the case for the Rockets, Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors, etc.

Rockets and Cavs would be a lot worse but they wouldn't be anywhere near a bottom 3 offense.

I am not buying what you are selling sorry.

Are you claiming a team led by Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon would lead a top offense amongst the Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors without their best player as well? This is honestly baffling, the players on the Houston roster had zero respect before this season. They are playing this well THIS season due to one reason, James Harden. He is elevating their play, while having better team success. I don't see the same from Russell. I see great individual statistics and achievements, but that is not how the MVP is awarded.

[Andre Roberstan]

Are you claiming a team led by Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon would lead a top offense amongst the Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors without their best player as well? This is honestly baffling, the players on the Houston roster had zero respect before this season. They are playing this well THIS season due to one reason, James Harden. He is elevating their play, while having better team success. I don't see the same from Russell. I see great individual statistics and achievements, but that is not how the MVP is awarded.

Gordon in 2014–15 (his last relatively healthy season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoer01/gamelog/2015/

Anderson last year (relatively healthy season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anderry01/gamelog/2016/

There's not that much difference between those years and what they're doing now. The reason they were underrated is

1) This is the most games Anderson has played in 4 years and the most games Gordon has played since his rookie year. Already. And the season's not over. Those guys were always, always injured.

2) No one wanted to watch Pellies.

[HurricaneKid]

You're a Rockets fan. I'm not here to change your mind. You're dead set on giving Harden the MVP no matter what. Just like Trump supporters.

There's an argument to be made for Russ, for sure. It's just not that one. That was a bad one.
Your post basically came down to 'Russ scores more so he's obviously better'

Nope. I know you can read. I keep mentioning "triple double." You feel that my post came down to Russ being the better scorer. It's ok. Again, you're a Rockets fan and Harden booster. That's fine.

The Rockets are only the 3rd best team in the NBA. They have to be the best team record wise for me to hand it to Harden in comparison to what Russ is doing.

Being the number one team in wins usually pushes me to give it to the best player on that team ONLY WHEN the player is in huge MVP talks. Hence, I'm not mentioning Steph Curry and LeBron. No one on San Antonio stands out either.

Russ isn't a better scorer though. Last week we calculated that Harden could miss his next 177 shots and still have the same eFG% as Russell, who over the last week FINALLY caught the league avg TS%. Meanwhile, Harden is shooting .615 TS%.

Harden .615 TS%


HALF THE LEAGUE


Russell Westbrook .552TS%
League Avg - .552 TS%

Taking more shots DOES NOT equate to being a better scorer.

Harden could literally have shot a 35 foot shot 4X every game and if he had hit 20% of them he would be more efficient and avg more ppg.

You are essentially giving Westbrook so much credit for bringing OKC up to the 15th best offense in the NBA that you are giving him the MVP. Is 15th out of 30 that great? Especially since you are also willing to ignore that Harden has the Rockets as one of the 8 best offenses EVER (pts/100 poss).

[Woodsanity]

You can say that about any superstar. Sorry, don't buy that excuse.

That wouldn't be the case for the Rockets, Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors, etc.

Rockets and Cavs would be a lot worse but they wouldn't be anywhere near a bottom 3 offense.

I am not buying what you are selling sorry.

Are you claiming a team led by Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon would lead a top offense amongst the Cavs, Clippers, Spurs, Warriors without their best player as well? This is honestly baffling, the players on the Houston roster had zero respect before this season. They are playing this well THIS season due to one reason, James Harden. He is elevating their play, while having better team success. I don't see the same from Russell. I see great individual statistics and achievements, but that is not how the MVP is awarded.

Read what I am saying I said they would not be anywhere near as bad as the Thunder without WB, because they actually have some semblance of offensive talent as evidenced by their offensive numbers when Harden is on the bench. Not that it would be an elite offensive team without Harden. Don't put words in my mouth.

[therealbig3]

Curry should honestly get more love for MVP, but because he's not putting up the PER that he did last year, nobody's talking about him, because apparently he's been a disappointment. But him and LeBron have generally had the best +/- in the league, and his team is the best in the league, and his team is on a 9 game winning streak, including back to back road wins over Houston and SA, WITHOUT Durant. And the numbers pretty much showed all year that the Warriors were much more dependent on Curry than Durant anyway.

But I get it, the narrative is completely against him this year. But he's still the #2 player in the league imo, until LeBron proves he's not #1 anymore.