2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Sharkboy242]

The Celtics defense is why they made it to the finals, that and Middleton being hurt. I see you don't want to talk about defense, and how it would matter that one guy is averaging 33ppg while being a top 3 DPOY candidate as well, while you and your ilk just post offensive stats and never want to talk defense, the Nuggets are 24th defensively since you didn't answer earlier. Good day sir.

You’d think that being the best scorer + having a top 3 defense would get you to the ECF at least eh? Anyways, you bringing up defense is no different than me bring up passing. There’s difference facets to basketball and defense is one of them, yes. But at least smart people realize that defense is more team dependent rather than individual.

Isn't that what Trae Young fans used to say about Luka, that he didn't make the conference finals? Passing is just another facet of offense, it's on the same side of the court Jokic is elite at, on the other side of the floor he hasn't been very good this season, certainly not as good as last season. There are 2 sides of the court, both are equally as important, one guy is elite on both sides, the other isn't. Smart people also know how to quote properly without furiously hitting submit so much that they keep doubling their replies.

Two view basketball as a dichotomy of two sides is just basic as hell and overtly simplistic.

Is rebounding not apart of defense?
Are steals/deflections not apart of defense?
Does making your opponent work when you're on offense not affect their defense?

Things are intertwined, to think otherwise is wrong. There’s a reason that stats dont paint jokic the way you’re trying to. also you still didn’t acknowledge how many Philly wins Embiid has actually contributed to. Keep ducking that fact homie.

Also, apologies for the formatting but this site isn’t exactly mobile friendly.

[ty 4191]

When do you plan on talking about defense?

When do you plan on talking about all these metrics, many of which measure/subsume defensive impact directly?

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

PS: Embiid is a part time player. He's missed 8 of his team's 31 games. You say he's a DPOY and MVP candidate. Name the last time a guy who missed 26% of his team's games won MVP or DPOY.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You’d think that being the best scorer + having a top 3 defense would get you to the ECF at least eh? Anyways, you bringing up defense is no different than me bring up passing. There’s difference facets to basketball and defense is one of them, yes. But at least smart people realize that defense is more team dependent rather than individual.

Isn't that what Trae Young fans used to say about Luka, that he didn't make the conference finals? Passing is just another facet of offense, it's on the same side of the court Jokic is elite at, on the other side of the floor he hasn't been very good this season, certainly not as good as last season. There are 2 sides of the court, both are equally as important, one guy is elite on both sides, the other isn't. Smart people also know how to quote properly without furiously hitting submit so much that they keep doubling their replies.

Two view basketball as a dichotomy of two sides is just basic as hell and overtly simplistic.

Is rebounding not apart of defense?
Are steals/deflections not apart of defense?
Does making your opponent work when you're on offense not affect their defense?

Things are intertwined, to think otherwise is wrong. There’s a reason that stats dont paint jokic the way you’re trying to. also you still didn’t acknowledge how many Philly wins Embiid has actually contributed to. Keep ducking that fact homie.

Also, apologies for the formatting but this site isn’t exactly mobile friendly.

We won't agree, I'm not a fan of either team, but as an outside observer Embiid definitely has the edge on MVP this season, Giannis is the favorite. Jokic is great, but his defense will be his downfall, just as health is Embiids.

[ty 4191]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

The Sixers are 5th in the East. The Nuggets lead the entire West.

Who's ahead, again?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

The Sixers are 5th in the East. The Nuggets lead the entire West.

Who's ahead, again?

Maxey and Harden have missed half the season, I thought your 2nd and 3rd best players being out gave you a huge edge in the MVP race, right? Or was that just the criteria for last year, cause the year before having the best record didn't matter. Can we zero in on what matters in the MVP race?

The Bucks have a better record in the better conference, their 2nd best player missed 2 months. Yet, you'll have Jokic over Giannis, cause "stats", even though Giannis is on a completely different plane of existence defensively.

At this point I hope Jokic does win the MVP, just so he can be the only 3 time winner without a ring, and I can watch you guys twist yourselves into circles on giving him a 4th.

[ty 4191]

Maxey and Harden have missed half the season, I thought your 2nd and 3rd best players being out gave you a huge edge in the MVP race, right? Or was that just the criteria for last year, cause the year before having the best record didn't matter. Can we zero in on what matters in the MVP race?

Murray and Porter, Jr missed the ENTIRE season last year. not the first half of the first 30 games. Massive difference. Also, you think Murray and MPJ as as good as Harden and Maxey? Embiid has always had better teammates and still has gotten no further than Jokic in the playoffs. In fact, he hasn't gotten as far as Jokic has, with significantly worse teammates. How many All Stars has Jokic played with? How many has Embiid played with?

The Bucks have a better record in the better conference, their 2nd best player missed 2 months. Yet, you'll have Jokic over Giannis, cause "stats", even though Giannis is on a completely different plane of existence defensively.

The better conference? The East has a .484 winning percentage against the West this year. Who's in the better conference again?

Giannis is in the 91st percentile defensively, Jokic, 75th percentile. Jokic is in the 99th percentile offensively. Giannis, 86th. You're drastically overstating Jokic's defensive weakness. And Giannis is having a terrible year efficiency wise. .643 FT% .256 from three? .560 eFG%? Awful, compared to Jokic.

There's a reason why Jokic buries everyone in every metric I cited (all of them, all the box score and impact based metrics).

It's because he's more valuable than both Embiid and Giannis this year. Same as the last 2 years.

[eyeatoma]

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Wtf? Game is played on both ends of the floor which Embiid does. Also the Nuggets have one more win than the Sixers lol.

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[losmi]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

The Sixers are 5th in the East. The Nuggets lead the entire West.

Who's ahead, again?

Maxey and Harden have missed half the season, I thought your 2nd and 3rd best players being out gave you a huge edge in the MVP race, right? Or was that just the criteria for last year, cause the year before having the best record didn't matter. Can we zero in on what matters in the MVP race?

The Bucks have a better record in the better conference, their 2nd best player missed 2 months. Yet, you'll have Jokic over Giannis, cause "stats", even though Giannis is on a completely different plane of existence defensively.

At this point I hope Jokic does win the MVP, just so he can be the only 3 time winner without a ring, and I can watch you guys twist yourselves into circles on giving him a 4th.

The criteria is and has always been winning the games, and the context matters.

Last season, Jokic played 65 games without his 2nd and 3rd best players and his W-L in those games was 41-24.

This season, Embiid played 4 games without his 2nd and 3rd best players and his W-L in those games was 1-3.

[eyeatoma]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Embiid has missed 8 games, already, and the Sixers record is still 5-3 without him. +58 point differential.

Jokic missed 3 games due to COVID, and the Nuggets are 1-2 without him. One miracle win and a point differential of -30 in those three games.

7 games, not 8

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[eyeatoma]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

The Sixers are 5th in the East. The Nuggets lead the entire West.

Who's ahead, again?

West is ass this year. It's also one win. Lol, big whoop.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[eyeatoma]

When do you plan on talking about defense?

When do you plan on talking about all these metrics, many of which measure/subsume defensive impact directly?

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

PS: Embiid is a part time player. He's missed 8 of his team's 31 games. You say he's a DPOY and MVP candidate. Name the last time a guy who missed 26% of his team's games won MVP or DPOY.

7

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[ty 4191]

7 games, not 8

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

8 games, not 7.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/sixers-record-without-embiid-this-season

[ty 4191]

West is ass this year. It's also one win. Lol, big whoop.

The entire West is over .500 against the East this year.

[ty 4191]

Can we zero in on what matters in the MVP race?

Yes. Can we? Embiid is a part time player.

Name another player who missed 26% of his team's games and won either DPOY and/or MVP in the past 76 years.

[eyeatoma]

7 games, not 8

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8 games, not 7.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/sixers-record-without-embiid-this-season

I stand corrected. Giannis has missed 6, does that take him out of contentions as well?

[eyeatoma]

West is ass this year. It's also one win. Lol, big whoop.

The entire West is over .500 against the East this year.

The mental gymnastics. Lol.

[ty 4191]

West is ass this year. It's also one win. Lol, big whoop.

The entire West is over .500 against the East this year.

The mental gymnastics. Lol.

You said "The West is ass". Yet, the East is beating them this year, overall. The West has a .484 winning percentage against the East this year.

Who's doing mental gymnastics? You are.

[losmi]

The Celtics defense is why they made it to the finals, that and Middleton being hurt. I see you don't want to talk about defense, and how it would matter that one guy is averaging 33ppg while being a top 3 DPOY candidate as well, while you and your ilk just post offensive stats and never want to talk defense, the Nuggets are 24th defensively since you didn't answer earlier. Good day sir.

You’d think that being the best scorer + having a top 3 defense would get you to the ECF at least eh? Anyways, you bringing up defense is no different than me bring up passing. There’s difference facets to basketball and defense is one of them, yes. But at least smart people realize that defense is more team dependent rather than individual.

Isn't that what Trae Young fans used to say about Luka, that he didn't make the conference finals? Passing is just another facet of offense, it's on the same side of the court Jokic is elite at, on the other side of the floor he hasn't been very good this season, certainly not as good as last season. There are 2 sides of the court, both are equally as important, one guy is elite on both sides, the other isn't. Smart people also know how to quote properly without furiously hitting submit so much that they keep doubling their replies.

"elite" sounds like they're equal. Jokic is several tiers above Embiid on one side of the court. The difference between them on that side of the court is much greater than on the other side.

[ty 4191]

I stand corrected. Giannis has missed 6, does that take him out of contentions as well?

Embiid's has missed 323 of his team's 718 games since he joined the franchise. His continual part time player status kills his MVP chances every year.

PS: What is Giannis leading in this year? Cite on metric.

[eyeatoma]

I stand corrected. Giannis has missed 6, does that take him out of contentions as well?

Embiid's has missed 323 of his team's 718 games since he joined the franchise. His continual part time player status kills his MVP chances every year.

PS: What is Giannis leading in this year? Cite on metric.

Giannis' is just as good if not better defensive player than Embiid. Not as good on offense obviously. Better record than the Nuggets though. So ticks your criteria.

I thought we're not counting previous seasons?