NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[ecogen]

It isn't, let me try to explain.

Embiid has been better on a per-minute basis than Jokic.

No.

We all have our own opinions and I'm sure we have all spend weeks gathering information, including statistical and video profiles for these players.

I think we can both agree on the topic of this thread, MVP, and that Jokic should win MVP.

If you had actually bothered to look at advanced stats Jokic leads Embiid in pretty much all of them, including, surprisingly, DBPM.

[Nuthin But Net]

This is straight from ESPN article which i 100% agree with.

There is really no case for anyone but Jokic. He leads most advanced statistics that measure per-minute production -- some by a lot -- and has played more minutes than any major candidate.

If you have any basketball knowledge i think at this point it's clear Jokic is undisputed MVP. Even result wise, Philly basically have the same result as Denver and are also in the Eastern conference. And Curry barely has GSW in the playoffs, well technically, play in tournament is NOT considered being in the playoffs yet.

Denver is in 4th place and probably doesn’t make it past the first of second round. MVPs should be from 1st place teams.

The best player from the best team like Rudy Gobert?

MVP should be from at least the 1st place or 2nd place team in one of the Conferences. So yes, Gobert, Mitchell, CP3, Booker, Embid, Harden/Durant/Irving, ect should all be the top candidates. If the voters are going to make up the rules as the go along and not care about being on a 1st or 2nd place team then Curry should be the MVP. He’s the leading scorer. It’s not rocket science .

[dygaction]

Denver is in 4th place and probably doesn’t make it past the first of second round. MVPs should be from 1st place teams.

The best player from the best team like Rudy Gobert?

MVP should be from at least the 1st place or 2nd place team in one of the Conferences. So yes, Gobert, Mitchell, CP3, Booker, Embid, Harden/Durant/Irving, ect should all be the top candidates. If the voters are going to make up the rules as the go along and not care about being on a 1st or 2nd place team then Curry should be the MVP. He’s the leading scorer. It’s not rocket science .

There you go, lol. Why not Durant 1, Kyrie 2, and Harden 3.

[Archx]

Haven’t seen this many guys brainwashed since the Branch Davidian days .
“Yes master, I’ll vote for whoever you tell me to”

This is straight from ESPN article which i 100% agree with.

There is really no case for anyone but Jokic. He leads most advanced statistics that measure per-minute production -- some by a lot -- and has played more minutes than any major candidate.

If you have any basketball knowledge i think at this point it's clear Jokic is undisputed MVP. Even result wise, Philly basically have the same result as Denver and are also in the Eastern conference. And Curry barely has GSW in the playoffs, well technically, play in tournament is NOT considered being in the playoffs yet.

Denver is in 4th place and probably doesn’t make it past the first of second round. MVPs should be from 1st place teams.

Well, regular season MVP =/= finals MVP. No one on those top teams (which are way more stacked than Denver), deserves it more than Jokic. No matter how you try to spin it. Stats and results are on Jokic side.

[Nuthin But Net]

The best player from the best team like Rudy Gobert?

MVP should be from at least the 1st place or 2nd place team in one of the Conferences. So yes, Gobert, Mitchell, CP3, Booker, Embid, Harden/Durant/Irving, ect should all be the top candidates. If the voters are going to make up the rules as the go along and not care about being on a 1st or 2nd place team then Curry should be the MVP. He’s the leading scorer. It’s not rocket science .

There you go, lol. Why not Durant 1, Kyrie 2, and Harden 3.

Yes! What about first considering the top players from the first 3 teams in each conference for MVP, then start looking at players from other playoff teams:
1. Embid
2. Mitchell
3. Chris Paul
4. Irving
5. Gobert
6. Simmons
7. Booker
8. Durant
9. Harden
10. Giannis
11. Leonard
12. Paul George
13. Curry
14. Lilliard
15. Butler
16. Randle
17. Lamelo Ball
18. Jokic

[Jurassic_Park]

nothing makes me happier than seeing folks butt hurt over Jokic winning MVP over their favourite player. Every week it was xxx is the MVP, and they kept throwing name after name after name, until no one else had an argument. Even better that Jokic doesn't even care about winning it (unlike some of the other salty folks that kept talking about it).

that and, i am going to win a very large sum of money once jokic is officially announced as the winner. 26 to 1. best bet i ever made.

Well deserved Jokic, fantastic season, you deserve this. Congrats Denver fans, and Jokic fans!

[Jurassic_Park]

To see the impact Jokic had.. look no further than 2 posts above... dude created a new account just to post that non-sense. haha. Jokic living rent free in the haters' minds.

[Archx]

That guy thinks Lamelo Ball deserves MVP thropy more than Jokic. Now this would be an entertaining topic to read

[Kurtz]

It isn't, let me try to explain.

Embiid has been better on a per-minute basis than Jokic. Embiid has played enough minutes where his team is in playoff contention because of his play, even when accounting for his missed time. This isn't some Kevin Durant thing where he has played less than half of the games on the season.

If the Goal of this year were to win a championship, a strong case could be made for Embiid ahead of Jokic because of the above mentioned statement but in no way has Embiid had more impact over the course of the entire regular season than Jokic--nobody has.

LeBron is also different, he has missed 27 games and there is a good chance if Vogel wasn't a good coach, the Lakers miss the post-season entirely this year (especially with Davis' missed time as well).

I think that any argument that relies on a per36 is an extremely weak argument. Even so, Jokic and Embiid per36 numbers are close this season - 27/11/9 on 57% vs 33/12/3 on 52%.

Who has an argument based on per-36 minutes?

My argument nothing to do with per-36.

I think that Embiid's 1563 minutes are better, on a per-minute basis, than Jokic's 2445 on a per-minute basis. The difference is clearly Jokic playing 60% more minutes and Embiis isn't close to being 60% better than Jokic.

And if the goal is to win a championship, again there are a number of players you'd consider ahead of both of those guys - starting with Lebron. It's not as if Embiid has been a particularly dominant playoff guy - his playoff numbers are again inferior to Jokic and a plethora of other players.

But LeBron has missed 7 more games than Embiid but more importantly hasn't played at a level near Jokic or Embiid so far this season, even on a per-minute basis.

You bring up a view point different than Jokic is the GOAT in this thread and get buried alive. See yall later.

Lol, dude, per36 is your per minute argument. It's the same thing - it's just that rather than presenting small fractions it takes your per minute and multiplies by 36 to make the data more presentable. It is available on https://www.basketball-reference.com/.


There seems to be a general pattern here where the anti-Jokic posters lack a basic level of statistical understandings and cling to arbitrary notions like "1st seed is everything". Then when they're presented with data instead of acknowledging that they were lacking information and re-framing their opinion, they throw a tantrum, call every logical person a Jokic homer or somesuch, and dissappear.

[The Rebel]

It isn't, let me try to explain.

Embiid has been better on a per-minute basis than Jokic. Embiid has played enough minutes where his team is in playoff contention because of his play, even when accounting for his missed time. This isn't some Kevin Durant thing where he has played less than half of the games on the season.

If the Goal of this year were to win a championship, a strong case could be made for Embiid ahead of Jokic because of the above mentioned statement but in no way has Embiid had more impact over the course of the entire regular season than Jokic--nobody has.

LeBron is also different, he has missed 27 games and there is a good chance if Vogel wasn't a good coach, the Lakers miss the post-season entirely this year (especially with Davis' missed time as well).

I think that any argument that relies on a per36 is an extremely weak argument. Even so, Jokic and Embiid per36 numbers are close this season - 27/11/9 on 57% vs 33/12/3 on 52%.

Who has an argument based on per-36 minutes?

My argument nothing to do with per-36.

I think that Embiid's 1563 minutes are better, on a per-minute basis, than Jokic's 2445 on a per-minute basis. The difference is clearly Jokic playing 60% more minutes and Embiis isn't close to being 60% better than Jokic.

And if the goal is to win a championship, again there are a number of players you'd consider ahead of both of those guys - starting with Lebron. It's not as if Embiid has been a particularly dominant playoff guy - his playoff numbers are again inferior to Jokic and a plethora of other players.

But LeBron has missed 7 more games than Embiid but more importantly hasn't played at a level near Jokic or Embiid so far this season, even on a per-minute basis.

You bring up a view point different than Jokic is the GOAT in this thread and get buried alive. See yall later.

There is literally no advanced stat showing Embiid being better or more effective than Jokic, as for playoffs, Jokic literally carried his team further last season than Embiid has,and it is arguable that the 76ers have the 3rd and 4th best players out of the 2 teams. So yes it is ignorant to argue your stance.

[Mick Dundee]

Yes! What about first considering the top players from the first 3 teams ...

Makes no Sense, because Jokic does not only provide most Value to his own Team, but to their Teams as well.

What do I mean by that?

Well ... Replace any of the best Players on the first 3 Teams, or any Team, with Jokic and the Teams Overall Value and Seeding goes up.

Replace Jokic with any of those Players and the Nuggets' Overall Value goes down.

I created a little Sheet in order to visualize that ...



I took the Player's following Data and calculated it against their Total Team Points to estimate, how much they contribute(d) to their Teams overall Scoring.

Total Points
Total Assists (Which I divided in 2/3 2P-Assists and 1/3 3P-Assists) and valued 1 Point per 2P-Ast and 1,5 Point per 3P-Ast.
Total Offensive Rebounds and Total Steals (Which I valued with 0,6 Points on Avg estimating that Points are contributed only every 1/3 of the Time)

As you can see, the only two Players who are close to Jokic's Contribution Realms are Doncic and Curry.

Everyone else pales, as Jokic contributes to more than a Third of his Teams overall Points.

And he maintained his Overall Contribution after losing Murray, Barton and Dozier - Of which two Players are Starters.

Sure, one can argue that Embiid missed games due to Injury.

But evading Injury is both a Combination of Skill and Natural Talent.

Jokic's Playstyle is Artistry in Nonchalant Motion, which allows him to escape Injuries naturally.

Embiid's physically dominant Playstyle on the other Hand, combined with his natural Flaws in Coordination and weak Bones make him more Injury Prone.

But we cannot punish Joker for that.

[Johnny Firpo]

Did Embiid even outplay Joker on a per minute basis? I don't think he did, Jokic led most advanced stats throughout the season, and when factored a combination of them, he had a solid lead over everyone.

[YellowBullet]

MVP should be from at least the 1st place or 2nd place team in one of the Conferences. So yes, Gobert, Mitchell, CP3, Booker, Embid, Harden/Durant/Irving, ect should all be the top candidates. If the voters are going to make up the rules as the go along and not care about being on a 1st or 2nd place team then Curry should be the MVP. He’s the leading scorer. It’s not rocket science .

There you go, lol. Why not Durant 1, Kyrie 2, and Harden 3.

Yes! What about first considering the top players from the first 3 teams in each conference for MVP, then start looking at players from other playoff teams:
1. Embid
2. Mitchell
3. Chris Paul
4. Irving
5. Gobert
6. Simmons
7. Booker
8. Durant
9. Harden
10. Giannis
11. Leonard
12. Paul George
13. Curry
14. Lilliard
15. Butler
16. Randle
17. Lamelo Ball
18. Jokic

Being second seed in the pathetic Eastern conference despite having 3 superstars is nothing to be proud of.

#2 in East is about as good as #5-6 in West (Mavericks of Blazers).

So, by your own criteria, Irving, Durant and Harden have no business being anywhere on this list.

[The Rebel]

I think that any argument that relies on a per36 is an extremely weak argument. Even so, Jokic and Embiid per36 numbers are close this season - 27/11/9 on 57% vs 33/12/3 on 52%.

Who has an argument based on per-36 minutes?

My argument nothing to do with per-36.

I think that Embiid's 1563 minutes are better, on a per-minute basis, than Jokic's 2445 on a per-minute basis. The difference is clearly Jokic playing 60% more minutes and Embiis isn't close to being 60% better than Jokic.

And if the goal is to win a championship, again there are a number of players you'd consider ahead of both of those guys - starting with Lebron. It's not as if Embiid has been a particularly dominant playoff guy - his playoff numbers are again inferior to Jokic and a plethora of other players.

But LeBron has missed 7 more games than Embiid but more importantly hasn't played at a level near Jokic or Embiid so far this season, even on a per-minute basis.

You bring up a view point different than Jokic is the GOAT in this thread and get buried alive. See yall later.

Lol, dude, per36 is your per minute argument. It's the same thing - it's just that rather than presenting small fractions it takes your per minute and multiplies by 36 to make the data more presentable. It is available on https://www.basketball-reference.com/.


There seems to be a general pattern here where the anti-Jokic posters lack a basic level of statistical understandings and cling to arbitrary notions like "1st seed is everything". Then when they're presented with data instead of acknowledging that they were lacking information and re-framing their opinion, they throw a tantrum, call every logical person a Jokic homer or somesuch, and dissappear.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad how hard some work to say that Jokic is underserving of MVP, setting new criteria all the time, only to find out that Jokic is still the best using that criteria. I have yet to see a coherent argument that Jokic is not the MVP in the last 6 weeks, yet some people just cannot accept that he has been clearly the best player in the NBA this season.

[BelgradeNugget]

I think that any argument that relies on a per36 is an extremely weak argument. Even so, Jokic and Embiid per36 numbers are close this season - 27/11/9 on 57% vs 33/12/3 on 52%.

Who has an argument based on per-36 minutes?

My argument nothing to do with per-36.

I think that Embiid's 1563 minutes are better, on a per-minute basis, than Jokic's 2445 on a per-minute basis. The difference is clearly Jokic playing 60% more minutes and Embiis isn't close to being 60% better than Jokic.

And if the goal is to win a championship, again there are a number of players you'd consider ahead of both of those guys - starting with Lebron. It's not as if Embiid has been a particularly dominant playoff guy - his playoff numbers are again inferior to Jokic and a plethora of other players.

But LeBron has missed 7 more games than Embiid but more importantly hasn't played at a level near Jokic or Embiid so far this season, even on a per-minute basis.

You bring up a view point different than Jokic is the GOAT in this thread and get buried alive. See yall later.

Lol, dude, per36 is your per minute argument. It's the same thing - it's just that rather than presenting small fractions it takes your per minute and multiplies by 36 to make the data more presentable. It is available on https://www.basketball-reference.com/.


There seems to be a general pattern here where the anti-Jokic posters lack a basic level of statistical understandings and cling to arbitrary notions like "1st seed is everything". Then when they're presented with data instead of acknowledging that they were lacking information and re-framing their opinion, they throw a tantrum, call every logical person a Jokic homer or somesuch, and dissappear.

What I like the most is how some of this experts forget the fact that Jokic is effectively playing two positions at the same time. You can make an argument that Embiid is the best center in the league from the traditional standpoint and Jokic is 2nd. At the same time Jokic is top 5 playmakers in the league and Embiid is somewhere around 356. Jokic can make your offense top 10 in the league with 10 g-league players. Embiid can't. He needs Simmons. Can Embiid make your defense top 10 by himself. No he needs Simmons. We all saw it.
No one on their right mind would say that CP3 and Ayton have 'similar stats' so Ayton is more valuable with his rim protection. But people someway forget that Jokic is CP3 + Ayton. Only without shot blocking so send him to the bench and start Mcgee.

[BelgradeNugget]

Makes no Sense, because Jokic does not only provide most Value to his own Team, but to their Teams as well.

What do I mean by that?

Well ... Replace any of the best Players on the first 3 Teams, or any Team, with Jokic and the Teams Overall Value and Seeding goes up.

Replace Jokic with any of those Players and the Nuggets' Overall Value goes down.

I created a little Sheet in order to visualize that ...



I took the Player's following Data and calculated it against their Total Team Points to estimate, how much they contribute(d) to their Teams overall Scoring.

Total Points
Total Assists (Which I divided in 2/3 2P-Assists and 1/3 3P-Assists) and valued 1 Point per 2P-Ast and 1,5 Point per 3P-Ast.
Total Offensive Rebounds and Total Steals (Which I valued with 0,6 Points on Avg estimating that Points are contributed only every 1/3 of the Time)

As you can see, the only two Players who are close to Jokic's Contribution Realms are Doncic and Curry.

Everyone else pales, as Jokic contributes to more than a Third of his Teams overall Points.

And he maintained his Overall Contribution after losing Murray, Barton and Dozier - Of which two Players are Starters.

Sure, one can argue that Embiid missed games due to Injury.

But evading Injury is both a Combination of Skill and Natural Talent.

Jokic's Playstyle is Artistry in Nonchalant Motion, which allows him to escape Injuries naturally.

Embiid's physically dominant Playstyle on the other Hand, combined with his natural Flaws in Coordination and weak Bones make him more Injury Prone.

But we cannot punish Joker for that.

If you add what people call screen assists the difference would be even bigger. I don't know how to calculate them but simple fact that Jokic, when he is not scoring or assisting, is setting good screens to help his teammates score is interesting. And that can't be said for any guard/forward in the league.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle/?sort=SCREEN_ASSISTS&dir=1

[Sharkboy242]

MVP should be from at least the 1st place or 2nd place team in one of the Conferences. So yes, Gobert, Mitchell, CP3, Booker, Embid, Harden/Durant/Irving, ect should all be the top candidates. If the voters are going to make up the rules as the go along and not care about being on a 1st or 2nd place team then Curry should be the MVP. He’s the leading scorer. It’s not rocket science .

There you go, lol. Why not Durant 1, Kyrie 2, and Harden 3.

Yes! What about first considering the top players from the first 3 teams in each conference for MVP, then start looking at players from other playoff teams:
1. Embid
2. Mitchell
3. Chris Paul
4. Irving
5. Gobert
6. Simmons
7. Booker
8. Durant
9. Harden
10. Giannis
11. Leonard
12. Paul George
13. Curry
14. Lilliard
15. Butler
16. Randle
17. Lamelo Ball
18. Jokic

Lamelo Ball ahead of Jokic?



You were trolling pretty well until you exposed yourself with that one.

[Richard Miller]

Very generous of him to include Jokic in the top 20

[Nuthin But Net]

Sounds like Jokic is the only player you are allowed to vote for at RealGM lol.

[BelgradeNugget]

Sounds like Jokic is the only player you are allowed to vote for at RealGM lol.

No, you have 9 of them on the list and you can vote for whoever you want. And you can also make stupid arguments, no-one will ban you for them. People will just laugh