RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[The Explorer]

No offense Alexander, but your post perfectly encapsulates why this debate is one that is dominated by casual fans,

This is a lazy way to dismiss an opposing viewpoint without addressing the actual substance. The GOAT debate spans many years now and includes respected voices from coaches, players, analysts, and historians—not just “casuals.” Claiming the debate is dominated by casual fans is you evading the actual topic, not an argument.

and MJ is the winner in the minds of casual fans who don't have a deep understanding of the game.

This is both arrogant and factually wrong. Jordan is often favored not because of ignorance, but because of his impact on the court

LeBron is typically the winner when you ask those with a deep understanding of the game.

This is both anecdotal and unprovable. The idea that only “smart” fans pick LeBron is just a superiority complex masquerading as an argument.

Casual fans and people who know nothing about the game eat this stuff up.

Calling anyone who disagrees with you a “casual” isn’t a valid rebuttal. Your posts reek of intellectual insecurity, you dismiss any disagreement by labeling it casual is what someone who can't defend their position does. If your argument held any weight, you wouldn’t need to insult those who see the game differently

[DOT]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

[bledredwine]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

Or we just know basketball. GOAT is GOAT.

Speaking of, love this recent Jordan quote.

In response to something;
“Lebron better retire soon because he’s not going to like what I have to say”.

Jordan’s about to point out all of the flaws in his game and I can’t wait!

Maybe he’ll mention how lechoke gives up buckets on defense, turns the ball over, or can’t hit freethrows. Probably more specifics of the game and fundamentals. Your daddy err childhood hero belongs in no serious GOAT convo. That’s for sure.

Seriously, who gets flamed for a hyper efficient 35 ppg while covering someone in the finals? Or let’s Jimmy Butler absolutely go off? Kawhi and Iguodala win finals MVP? all at his own position?

[michaelm]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

So what is it that apparently makes LeBron partisans dispassionate about him while Jordan partisans are biased/wearers of rose coloured glasses where Jordan is concerned ? .

[ReggiesKnicks]

Jokic is on his way to a team sub-100 ORTG series. Shades on the 2015 NBA Finals with LeBron vs Golden State.

[f4p]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

So what is it that apparently makes LeBron partisans dispassionate about him while Jordan partisans are biased/wearers of rose coloured glasses where Jordan is concerned ? .

I voted Jordan #1 in the top 100 project, but the Jordan side almost certainly has more disingenuous gotcha type stuff like top 75/all stars played with stuff as if all those guys are created equal. Like oh, 40 year old LeBron played with the **** version of Luka doncic, wow, how did they lose. Or he played with 37 year old ray Allen. Or Kyrie was an all star but oops, he missed the finals. Or Kevin love was an all star but was basically a massive liability against the only opponent, golden state, that actually mattered so it would be like having pippen except every time you get to the finals, pippen just sits out or gets injured so who cares if you have pippen. Like is anyone really trading first 3 peat pippen and his fit in 90s basketball for both Kyrie and love and their fit in 2016 against the warriors? I mean pippen had his off games offensively certainly but I'm not sure you make that trade.

Like we all agree LeBron crapped the bed in the 2011 finals, but theres basically nothing more he could have done after (or really before) that no matter how many supposed to 75 guys he played with and 2016 is a finals Jordan could basically never win (maybe 20% at his peak) so that wins back a lot of the 2011 let down.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Jokic is on his way to a team sub-100 ORTG series. Shades on the 2015 NBA Finals with LeBron vs Golden State.

From 2015 to 2016 in a blurr

[michaelm]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

So what is it that apparently makes LeBron partisans dispassionate about him while Jordan partisans are biased/wearers of rose coloured glasses where Jordan is concerned ? .

I voted Jordan #1 in the top 100 project, but the Jordan side almost certainly has more disingenuous gotcha type stuff like top 75/all stars played with stuff as if all those guys are created equal. Like oh, 40 year old LeBron played with the **** version of Luka doncic, wow, how did they lose. Or he played with 37 year old ray Allen. Or Kyrie was an all star but oops, he missed the finals. Or Kevin love was an all star but was basically a massive liability against the only opponent, golden state, that actually mattered so it would be like having pippen except every time you get to the finals, pippen just sits out or gets injured so who cares if you have pippen. Like is anyone really trading first 3 peat pippen and his fit in 90s basketball for both Kyrie and love and their fit in 2016 against the warriors? I mean pippen had his off games offensively certainly but I'm not sure you make that trade.

Like we all agree LeBron crapped the bed in the 2011 finals, but theres basically nothing more he could have done after (or really before) that no matter how many supposed to 75 guys he played with and 2016 is a finals Jordan could basically never win (maybe 20% at his peak) so that wins back a lot of the 2011 let down.

IMO there is a rather good chance of the better versions of the Jordan Bulls beating the version of the 2016 GSW team which was playing by the time of the 2016 finals, particularly in the last games. I somewhat doubt 2016 Anderson Varejao would have provided much in the way of rim protection against Michael Jordan, as he didn’t against LeBron James and Kyrie Irving.

I would like to think the Jordan Bulls wouldn’t have beaten 2017 GSW, but don’t have the certainty LeBron partisans appear to have in this regard.

[bledredwine]

lol. That 96 Bulls squad mops the floor with 2016 Golden State and the Cavs.
The defense, transition game, teamwork and athleticism aren't remotely close.

And Jordan in an open court would be ridiculous, as so many former and even current players have
said. What I've never heard from someone that knows what they're talking about (a player) is
that he'd somehow average less.

This team is the embodiment of practices being wars.
They literally brought up the intensity of their opponents and were still winning by 10-30 on the regular.

Watch on YouTube

This is all so eerily similar to the Kobe fan days.

[Swindle]

It’s really not that crazy these polls always end in a landslide victory. Jordan had 6 finals MVPs and in all 6 of those runs he was a 1st team defender and lead the league in scoring. He was the high scorer in every playoff series in his career outside of his rookie year. He is the only player to ever have more 40 point games than games under 20 in his career. Even a player as great as Lebron struggled hard individually in his first 2 Finals appearances. So why shouldn’t Jordan be the GOAT?

[Gregoire]

It’s really not that crazy these polls always end in a landslide victory. Jordan had 6 finals MVPs and in all 6 of those runs he was a 1st team defender and lead the league in scoring. He was the high scorer in every playoff series in his career outside of his rookie year. He is the only player to ever have more 40 point games than games under 20 in his career. Even a player as great as Lebron struggled hard individually in his first 2 Finals appearances. So why shouldn’t Jordan be the GOAT?

Yea, at this point its crystal clear for the majority (outside of LeBron diehaard fans) who the GOAT is (for today), the more LeBron played, the more clear it appears, if in 2016-2018 there are some questions about future and legasy, today its done deal. Not a question actually for most fans.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[bledredwine]

Read on Twitter

or this, 6 years into the league

Watch on YouTube

[ScrantonBulls]

Feel like the point is kind of undermined when you realize one of those 75th team guys is Ray Allen, who was 37 when he played with LeBron

Almost like casuals purposefully leave out context to defend their daddy childhood hero MJ.

So what is it that apparently makes LeBron partisans dispassionate about him while Jordan partisans are biased/wearers of rose coloured glasses where Jordan is concerned ? .

I voted Jordan #1 in the top 100 project, but the Jordan side almost certainly has more disingenuous gotcha type stuff like top 75/all stars played with stuff as if all those guys are created equal. Like oh, 40 year old LeBron played with the **** version of Luka doncic, wow, how did they lose. Or he played with 37 year old ray Allen. Or Kyrie was an all star but oops, he missed the finals. Or Kevin love was an all star but was basically a massive liability against the only opponent, golden state, that actually mattered so it would be like having pippen except every time you get to the finals, pippen just sits out or gets injured so who cares if you have pippen. Like is anyone really trading first 3 peat pippen and his fit in 90s basketball for both Kyrie and love and their fit in 2016 against the warriors? I mean pippen had his off games offensively certainly but I'm not sure you make that trade.

Like we all agree LeBron crapped the bed in the 2011 finals, but theres basically nothing more he could have done after (or really before) that no matter how many supposed to 75 guys he played with and 2016 is a finals Jordan could basically never win (maybe 20% at his peak) so that wins back a lot of the 2011 let down.

Spot on. It's really a shame, because there is a great case to be made for Jordan to be the GOAT. But for whatever reason, a lot of the Jordan fans in this thread post disingenuous arguments or straight out lies. Look at my signature for example. Like, why are we trying to count the number of all stars a guy played with instead of looking at teammates that made actual all-NBA teams while playing with said player? Counting all stars is silly for many reasons. One, it is heavily based off fan voting, aka a popularity contest driven by casual fans. Two, it doesn't even encompass an entire season. All-NBA is quite obviously a better metric to use for comparison. But no, they prefer to count all-star appearances of teammates which includes washed up guys like Russell Westbrook and Dwight

[michaelm]

So what is it that apparently makes LeBron partisans dispassionate about him while Jordan partisans are biased/wearers of rose coloured glasses where Jordan is concerned ? .

I voted Jordan #1 in the top 100 project, but the Jordan side almost certainly has more disingenuous gotcha type stuff like top 75/all stars played with stuff as if all those guys are created equal. Like oh, 40 year old LeBron played with the **** version of Luka doncic, wow, how did they lose. Or he played with 37 year old ray Allen. Or Kyrie was an all star but oops, he missed the finals. Or Kevin love was an all star but was basically a massive liability against the only opponent, golden state, that actually mattered so it would be like having pippen except every time you get to the finals, pippen just sits out or gets injured so who cares if you have pippen. Like is anyone really trading first 3 peat pippen and his fit in 90s basketball for both Kyrie and love and their fit in 2016 against the warriors? I mean pippen had his off games offensively certainly but I'm not sure you make that trade.

Like we all agree LeBron crapped the bed in the 2011 finals, but theres basically nothing more he could have done after (or really before) that no matter how many supposed to 75 guys he played with and 2016 is a finals Jordan could basically never win (maybe 20% at his peak) so that wins back a lot of the 2011 let down.

Spot on. It's really a shame, because there is a great case to be made for Jordan to be the GOAT. But for whatever reason, a lot of the Jordan fans in this thread post disingenuous arguments or straight out lies. Look at my signature for example. Like, why are we trying to count the number of all stars a guy played with instead of looking at teammates that made actual all-NBA teams while playing with said player? Counting all stars is silly for many reasons. One, it is heavily based off fan voting, aka a popularity contest driven by casual fans. Two, it doesn't even encompass an entire season. All-NBA is quite obviously a better metric to use for comparison. But no, they prefer to count all-star appearances of teammates which includes washed up guys like Russell Westbrook and Dwight

Yes only other people are biased.

Really hard evidence such as what would have happened hypothetically if the Jordan Bulls had gone up against a GSW team which played 20 years later is what is needed.

[MavsDirk41]

“Jordan fans tell lies while James fans tell the truth” glad we got that figured out

[Gregoire]

Its very funny how LeBron boys try to deal with their frustration here

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[The Explorer]

All-NBA is quite obviously a better metric to use for comparison. But no, they prefer to count all-star appearances of teammates which includes washed up guys like Russell Westbrook and Dwight

So you want to use all-nba selections as the definitive measure of teammate strength. Fine. Let's see you keep that same energy when evaluating opponent strength too. How many 1st team all-nba players did James face in all his years making the playoffs?

2005: 0
2006: 0
2007: 0
2008: Kevin Garnett
2009: Dwight Howard
2010: 0
2011: Derrick Rose
2012: 0
2013: 0
2014: 0
2015: 0
2016: 0
2017: 0
2018: 0
2019: 0
2020: James Harden
2021: 0
2023: 0
2024: Nikola Jokic

In 19 playoff appearances, James only faced 5 1st team all-nba players. Compare to someone like Bryant, who faced 14 1st team all-nba players in 13 playoff appearances. Nearly triple the amount of elite opposition in far few postseasons.

So if All-NBA is your gold standard, then by that same logic, James consistently had easier roads through weaker elite competition, and your attempt to discredit the strength of his teammates by that metric completely backfires.

[DOT]

All-NBA is quite obviously a better metric to use for comparison. But no, they prefer to count all-star appearances of teammates which includes washed up guys like Russell Westbrook and Dwight

So you want to use all-nba selections as the definitive measure of teammate strength. Fine. Let's see you keep that same energy when evaluating opponent strength too. How many 1st team all-nba players did James face in all his years making the playoffs?

2005: 0
2006: 0
2007: 0
2008: Kevin Garnett
2009: Dwight Howard
2010: 0
2011: Derrick Rose
2012: 0
2013: 0
2014: 0
2015: 0
2016: 0
2017: 0
2018: 0
2019: 0
2020: James Harden
2021: 0
2023: 0
2024: Nikola Jokic

In 19 playoff appearances, James only faced 5 1st team all-nba players. Compare to someone like Bryant, who faced 14 1st team all-nba players in 13 playoff appearances. Nearly triple the amount of elite opposition in far few postseasons.

So if All-NBA is your gold standard, then by that same logic, James consistently had easier roads through weaker elite competition, and your attempt to discredit the strength of his teammates by that metric completely backfires.

You're missing some

2007 he faced Tim Duncan in the Finals
2013 Duncan again
2015 Curry
2016 Curry again
2018 KD in the Finals

So that brings him up to 10 guys, which is double what you said. And if Ant makes it this year, that brings it to 11. I don't think anyone has ever claimed the East was tough during LeBron's reign, but what I am gonna say is the same thing I keep saying

Why do y'all have to just lie like that when the actual numbers would still prove your point?

You're missing some for Kobe too, I think it's actually 18, so you could say Kobe faced nearly double the number of 1st teamers, so I don't know if it's intentional or you're just using numbers you saw on a meme without fact checking them

If it's the former, that's just bad faith, if it's the latter, that's just you being dumb.