RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[SlimShady83]

[bledredwine]

How ridiculous with players like Kareem Russell and Wilt.

Give me Hakeem, Shaq, Bird or Magic over Lebron if I want to win the chip in any given year.

Trust me when I say this is ephemeral, just as Kobe GOAT talks were.

Pretty sure James is clearly in the top 3, and consensus has him #2 all time.

Yeah, any list that has lebron at #3 or lower is hard to take seriously. I have MJ as the GOAT but LeBron deserves his flowers too

That can't be true when you have players like Kareem, Russell, and Wilt.

Lebron has some things over them and they have some things over Lebron.
He's not distanced himself in any way.

[bledredwine]

How ridiculous with players like Kareem Russell and Wilt.

Give me Hakeem, Shaq, Bird or Magic over Lebron if I want to win the chip in any given year.

Trust me when I say this is ephemeral, just as Kobe GOAT talks were.

Pretty sure James is clearly in the top 3, and consensus has him #2 all time.

Yeah, any list that has lebron at #3 or lower is hard to take seriously. I have MJ as the GOAT but LeBron deserves his flowers too

In achievements, Kareem has the best case for number 2 quite handily. If it was just achievements, you could argue him number one.
In terms of dominance, Wilt.
Winning, obviously Russell is 1.
Longevity? Once again you have Kareem.

Fact is, plenty of teams won awards during Lebron's time and plenty of players took it to him in the finals.
He's been the best of this generation, clearly, but so was Kareem, so was Wilt (IMO! but who really knows).

[michaelm]

Bledredwine said it

Except people did say that about Kobe

What is very definitely valid to dispute is that LeBron will be seen to be at Kobe’s level with the passage of time however, it is extremely likely imo that LeBron will continue to be rated well above Kobe in his retirement
.
Kobe himself btw later admitted that his ego interfered with him being happy to play on the same team as Shaq though, while MJ accepted the recruitment of a player in Denis Rodman who had been one of his worst enemies historically because he considered it would help his team win.

This is fake news. At no point during Kobe's career did anybody with a shred of basketball intelligence say that Kobe was in the GOAT conversation. The guy only won 1 MVP for gods sake. He was never definitively the best player in the league. How can anybody seriously put a 1-time MVP in the GOAT category? He was never legitimately in the conversation with MJ, Kareem, Wilt or Russell. Maybe one of the hot take machines on ESPN floated it, but like I said, nobody with a shred of basketball intelligence had him in the GOAT category.

I didn't say that how some people rated Kobe when he was playing was correct, but the basic point was that Kobe's rating settled back from where it was even by consensus when he played to how he is rated now. Sure it is extremely unlikely that LeBron will ever be rated fringe top 10 or however Kobe is currently rated.

The MVP award btw is not a broad consensus thing itself, but pretty much imo a narrative based award, decided by a handful or two of not necessarily highly expert and definitely not unbiased individuals by undisclosed criteria, hence LeBron not having more such awards, and MJ and probably Lebron never being voted MVP unanimously even in their best years.

Again LeBron is obviously a very great player and right up there in the pantheon of NBA players, and will retire leading and/or dominating many statistical categories, but imo and that of others individual statistics are not an end in themselves, particularly metrics which are not and probably cannot be absolutely validated, and some of which didn't even exist in former years, and while in a team game individual brilliance however great may not triumph, leading a team to great heights including to titles is not negligible either.

[xchange55]

One of the reasons why he (Lebron) struggled against Dallas in 2011 is that they based their entire gameplan around slowing him down.

As if this doesn't happen to other star players

[ninjamilk23]

One of the reasons why he (Lebron) struggled against Dallas in 2011 is that they based their entire gameplan around slowing him down.

As if this doesn't happen to other star players

It's crazy how much Lebron fans will try to defend his 2011 performance like it wasn't that bad. Lol. I still have LeBron at 2nd or 3rd GOAT even after acknowledging that he holds the worst Finals performance from any GOAT candidate to date.

[Iwasawitness]

One of the reasons why he (Lebron) struggled against Dallas in 2011 is that they based their entire gameplan around slowing him down.

As if this doesn't happen to other star players

It's crazy how much Lebron fans will try to defend his 2011 performance like it wasn't that bad. Lol. I still have LeBron at 2nd or 3rd GOAT even after acknowledging that he holds the worst Finals performance from any GOAT candidate to date.

Who said I was defending it?

[michaelm]

One of the reasons why he (Lebron) struggled against Dallas in 2011 is that they based their entire gameplan around slowing him down.

As if this doesn't happen to other star players

The "jordan Rules" of course as one example.

That defensive strategy did contain Jordan for a time, and he lost in the play-offs in his early career as Lebron did. I don't recall anything abject like the game against the Mavs I watched in a sports bar in San Antonio in 2011 though. Prior to 2011 Lebron perhaps took his teams as far as anyone could have taken them. He further developed after the 2011 finals of course and it is hard to see how his own performances in subsequent finals appearances can be criticised.

The response to the Jordan rules was Phil Jackson instituting a more team orientated offense and teams with good fit being built around Jordan which didn't lose in 6 finals appearances subsequently with Jordan finals MVP on all 6 occasions, and I don't see how acceding to a great coach and his team having good fit diminishes Jordan, he was part of and accepted the process which imo is the way to go in a team game.

So perhaps peak Lebron was a more unstoppable individual player but the teams built around peak Jordan were the more unstoppable teams, and I guess it is a philosophical question which is more meritorious.

[bledredwine]

Watch on YouTube

There’s a whole subculture of Lebron’s fans being enlightened. The last eight minutes of this are beautiful and the kid is actually open minded too.

[Rust_Cohle]

I understand the sentiment behind this article as GOAT debates in any sport can get very toxic but man was this corny as hell

https://www.si.com/fannation/backinthedaynba/there-s-no-place-for-nastiness-insults-in-lebron-james-michael-jordan-g-o-a-t-debate-01hxesyv4qt9

[Rust_Cohle]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

[ScrantonBulls]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

[Rust_Cohle]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

The best #2 ever who only averaged 20 ppg in the
playoffs twice in his career with the bulls.

Imagine if MJ could hand pick his teammates have an entire agency at his beck and call to force teams to sign any other player from said agency and gets to play with easily one of the best big men of his era. Oof, and imagine if after all that he still ends up with two of the most lopsided point differentials in finals history.

Ouch #TajFail

[IMF]

Gawd clearly made by a Lakers fan if we're putting Kobe and Magic in the Lebron tier

I'd adjust it to this.

Tier 1 GOAT: Jordan
Tier 2 KINGS: Lebron and Kareem (The only guys with a real argument against Jordan)
Tier 3 LEGENDS: Magic, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe, West (Era defining players with iconic status/champions)
Tier 4 GREATS: Everyone else

That gives you a clear #1, 2 guys who are close, and 10 other guys that stand above the rest. I think to be in that group you have to be a truly iconic player that defines your era and/or a dominant multiple time champion.

[michaelm]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

The best #2 ever who only averaged 20 ppg in the
playoffs twice in his career with the bulls.

Imagine if MJ could hand pick his teammates have an entire agency at his beck and call to force teams to sign any other player from said agency and gets to play with easily one of the best big men of his era. Oof, and imagine if after all that he still ends up with two of the most lopsided point differentials in finals history.

Ouch #TajFail

To be fair LeBron didn’t really have the opportunity to be a one franchise guy with a single good coach and have rosters built around him which could prevail over a significant period of time to win a large multiple number of titles once he was drafted by an organisation as bad as the Cavs were in his first stint there. I suspect it is more difficult to do in this era, although Curry and GSW managed 4 titles and 2 finals losses in 8 years. In particular a franchise is not going to get many advantageous draft picks with even a very young LeBron on the roster who hit his stride pretty much historically quickly. I also tend to believe the poster who said Jordan was close to jumping himself even in that era if things hadn’t got going with the Bulls when they did.

However that doesn’t make it other than flawed logic to attempt to diminish Jordan for taking the path he did which is exactly what he should have done ie having a team built around him with him not sidelining the GM and accepting coaching and a game plan from a great coach and at least galvanising his teams if people want to split hairs about leadership. As has been said a less heliocentric game plan makes it more likely a team won’t fall apart without their main man, and they didn’t actually win a title without him.

Again it probably comes down to whether you are a fan of a team and team play or a single player fan Most on this thread including me are posting from a single player fan perspective, but in general as a fan of a team as well as their best ever player I will take 4 title wins by my team led by Curry over him winning them for 3 different teams even if LeBron has much broader talent as he obviously does.

[michaelm]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

Yes it was totally unfair for the Jordan Bulls to have been built organically largely from the draft and for him to accept coaching and a game plan which advantaged his team and to galvanise his teams and take them over the top for 6 title runs.

Of course LeBron’s teams drop off precipitously when he leaves since he waits until other elite players have declined (or left in Kyrie’s case), and has usually gutted the depth of his teams and traded the young talent, in his super team days anyway.

I formerly was wont to claim he has left a blasted heath behind him but no longer do, it may have been for the best. The Cavs have arisen and look like being contenders for a long time, while I am not expecting any joy from GSW success for many years. Like the Bulls with Jordan they may not draft another Curry anytime soon if ever.

[ScrantonBulls]

Insane how MJ won so much without a dominant big man. MJ with AD would’ve been filthy

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

The best #2 ever who only averaged 20 ppg in the
playoffs twice in his career with the bulls.

Imagine if MJ could hand pick his teammates have an entire agency at his beck and call to force teams to sign any other player from said agency and gets to play with easily one of the best big men of his era. Oof, and imagine if after all that he still ends up with two of the most lopsided point differentials in finals history.

Ouch #TajFail

The ultimate mental gymnastics dilemma by MJ stans

[michaelm]

Poor guy's rosters were so weak that they only won a mere 55 games without him. He only had the best #2 option ever, and an All-Defensive allstar caliber PF the first run, and a HOF all-time great rebounding DPOY PF the second run. What if we added another all-star PF/C to those rosters? What could have been...

#RustCohleLogic

The best #2 ever who only averaged 20 ppg in the
playoffs twice in his career with the bulls.

Imagine if MJ could hand pick his teammates have an entire agency at his beck and call to force teams to sign any other player from said agency and gets to play with easily one of the best big men of his era. Oof, and imagine if after all that he still ends up with two of the most lopsided point differentials in finals history.

Ouch #TajFail

The ultimate mental gymnastics dilemma by MJ stans

As opposed to constant threads from LeBron fans trying to elevate their guy on the basis he had less help than MJ, including (successful) troll threads like the current one aimed at inducing stupid comments about the likes of Pippen which they can then complain about.

That thread wasn’t started by a Jordan fan with the intent of downgrading Pippen. It was started by someone who is quite likely a LeBron fan with the intent of downgrading Jordan. You guys constantly downgrade LeBron’s supporting casts btw.

[SlimShady83]

Gawd clearly made by a Lakers fan if we're putting Kobe and Magic in the Lebron tier

I'd adjust it to this.

Tier 1 GOAT: Jordan
Tier 2 KINGS: Lebron and Kareem (The only guys with a real argument against Jordan)
Tier 3 LEGENDS: Magic, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe, West (Era defining players with iconic status/champions)
Tier 4 GREATS: Everyone else

That gives you a clear #1, 2 guys who are close, and 10 other guys that stand above the rest. I think to be in that group you have to be a truly iconic player that defines your era and/or a dominant multiple time champion.

LOL I swear those pictures weren't done by me lol, but just goes to show how many greats Lakers have

The reason for my top 10 all comes to championships whether player was Leader of those chips like Jordan/Bron or players who play significant rolls Into helping their team win a championship like Kobe, as after all In the words of Bron "It's a team sport".

Jordan, Russel, Bird (fav when started watching B-ball biased), Duncan, Magic, Kobe (Idol-won with out Shaq), Shaq (3peat), Kareem, Curry, Bron (I'm a Bron hater LOL).

We all have our own reasons for our own top 10/20 etc and here's a link from the forum to prove It
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2423374

Enjoy! Peace out.

[ScrantonBulls]

The best #2 ever who only averaged 20 ppg in the
playoffs twice in his career with the bulls.

Imagine if MJ could hand pick his teammates have an entire agency at his beck and call to force teams to sign any other player from said agency and gets to play with easily one of the best big men of his era. Oof, and imagine if after all that he still ends up with two of the most lopsided point differentials in finals history.

Ouch #TajFail

The ultimate mental gymnastics dilemma by MJ stans

As opposed to constant threads from LeBron fans trying to elevate their guy on the basis he had less help than MJ, including (successful) troll threads like the current one aimed at inducing stupid comments about the likes of Pippen which they can then complain about.

Tat thread wasn’t started by a Jordan fan with the intent of downgrading Pippen. It was started by someone who is quite likely a LeBron fan with the intent of downgrading Jordan. You guys constantly downgrade LeBron’s supporting casts btw.

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?