RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ScrantonBulls]

Gawd clearly made by a Lakers fan if we're putting Kobe and Magic in the Lebron tier

I'd adjust it to this.

Tier 1 GOAT: Jordan
Tier 2 KINGS: Lebron and Kareem (The only guys with a real argument against Jordan)
Tier 3 LEGENDS: Magic, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe, West (Era defining players with iconic status/champions)
Tier 4 GREATS: Everyone else

That gives you a clear #1, 2 guys who are close, and 10 other guys that stand above the rest. I think to be in that group you have to be a truly iconic player that defines your era and/or a dominant multiple time champion.

LOL I swear those pictures weren't done by me lol, but just goes to show how many greats Lakers have

The reason for my top 10 all comes to championships whether player was Leader of those chips like Jordan/Bron or players who play significant rolls Into helping their team win a championship like Kobe, as after all In the words of Bron "It's a team sport".

Jordan, Russel, Bird (fav when started watching B-ball biased), Duncan, Magic, Kobe (Idol-won with out Shaq), Shaq (3peat), Kareem, Curry, Bron (I'm a Bron hater LOL).

We all have our own reasons for our own top 10/20 etc and here's a link from the forum to prove It
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2423374

Enjoy! Peace out.

So what you're saying is your top 10 is based more on feelings than logic? Not trying to offend, but it seems that way based on your description. Rankings aren't supposed to be based on who you like more. It's supposed to be about who is the best. Otherwise the rankings are completely worthless.

[michaelm]

The ultimate mental gymnastics dilemma by MJ stans

As opposed to constant threads from LeBron fans trying to elevate their guy on the basis he had less help than MJ, including (successful) troll threads like the current one aimed at inducing stupid comments about the likes of Pippen which they can then complain about.

Tat thread wasn’t started by a Jordan fan with the intent of downgrading Pippen. It was started by someone who is quite likely a LeBron fan with the intent of downgrading Jordan. You guys constantly downgrade LeBron’s supporting casts btw.

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to diminish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology as revered sportsmen do before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum to have that status. LeBron obviously has been mythologised as well with which I have no problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

[SlimShady83]

So what you're saying is your top 10 is based more on feelings than logic? Not trying to offend, but it seems that way based on your description. Rankings aren't supposed to be based on who you like more. It's supposed to be about who is the best. Otherwise the rankings are completely worthless.

Like I said, everyone I mean everyone have their own reason for their own top 10 etc Hell some people have Garnett In their top 10, some people have Stockton, Chris Paul etc etc, there Is no right or wrong answer when It comes to your own or Is there?

Watch on YouTube

[michaelm]

The ultimate mental gymnastics dilemma by MJ stans

As opposed to constant threads from LeBron fans trying to elevate their guy on the basis he had less help than MJ, including (successful) troll threads like the current one aimed at inducing stupid comments about the likes of Pippen which they can then complain about.

That thread wasn’t started by a Jordan fan with the intent of downgrading Pippen. It was started by someone who is quite likely a LeBron fan with the intent of downgrading Jordan. You guys constantly downgrade LeBron’s supporting casts btw.

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as LeBron fans appear to be about him and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to diminish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him, and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates either.

MJ actually has been a mythic figure since before LeBron and even before the internet as tends to happen with revered sportsmen, and does not need this forum to be so. LeBron obviously is being/has been mythologised as well with which I have no problem given his own status and achievements in the sport but don’t pretend mythologising or bias involve only one fanbase.

[ScrantonBulls]

So what you're saying is your top 10 is based more on feelings than logic? Not trying to offend, but it seems that way based on your description. Rankings aren't supposed to be based on who you like more. It's supposed to be about who is the best. Otherwise the rankings are completely worthless.

Like I said, everyone I mean everyone have their own reason for their own top 10 etc Hell some people have Garnett In their top 10, some people have Stockton, Chris Paul etc etc, there Is no right or wrong answer when It comes to your own or Is there?

Watch on YouTube

It's not a true ranking if you factor in "lol I really like this guy" or "I hate this guy". That makes a true "ranking" completely worthless.

[SlimShady83]

It's not a true ranking if you factor in "lol I really like this guy" or "I hate this guy". That makes a true "ranking" completely worthless.

If Chuck can put Shaq at 13 I can put Bron at 10 and now we go back n forth like they did

[michaelm]

So what you're saying is your top 10 is based more on feelings than logic? Not trying to offend, but it seems that way based on your description. Rankings aren't supposed to be based on who you like more. It's supposed to be about who is the best. Otherwise the rankings are completely worthless.

Like I said, everyone I mean everyone have their own reason for their own top 10 etc Hell some people have Garnett In their top 10, some people have Stockton, Chris Paul etc etc, there Is no right or wrong answer when It comes to your own or Is there?

Watch on YouTube

It's not a true ranking if you factor in "lol I really like this guy" or "I hate this guy". That makes a true "ranking" completely worthless.

You of course are completely unbiased about all basketball players and whom you like or dislike never comes into consideration.

[bledredwine]

Like I said, everyone I mean everyone have their own reason for their own top 10 etc Hell some people have Garnett In their top 10, some people have Stockton, Chris Paul etc etc, there Is no right or wrong answer when It comes to your own or Is there?

Watch on YouTube

It's not a true ranking if you factor in "lol I really like this guy" or "I hate this guy". That makes a true "ranking" completely worthless.

You of course are completely unbiased about all basketball players and whom you like or dislike never comes into consideration.

I chuckled at his post because "I like this guy I hate that guy" literally summarizes every one of his posts.

[ScrantonBulls]

As opposed to constant threads from LeBron fans trying to elevate their guy on the basis he had less help than MJ, including (successful) troll threads like the current one aimed at inducing stupid comments about the likes of Pippen which they can then complain about.

Tat thread wasn’t started by a Jordan fan with the intent of downgrading Pippen. It was started by someone who is quite likely a LeBron fan with the intent of downgrading Jordan. You guys constantly downgrade LeBron’s supporting casts btw.

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to finish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum. LeBron obvious has been mythologised as well with which I hs e not problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to MJ because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

[SlimShady83]

It's not a true ranking if you factor in "lol I really like this guy" or "I hate this guy". That makes a true "ranking" completely worthless.

Take a look at this thread from the players comparison section... viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2423374

might have to copy paste It, If It doesn't work. It's currently on page 3 and title "My top 15" ... Enjoy!
I guess we must all be wrong In our own top 10/15/20 and you're 100% correct.

[SaveTheHens]

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to finish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum. LeBron obvious has been mythologised as well with which I hs e not problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to LeBron because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

The thing is MJ only has maybe 3 players that can use some argument to claim theyre better, Lebron (because its nowadays debate) Kareem (same rings, with two teams, longevity stats) and Russell (rings).
Meanwhile there are more arguable players vs Lebron… not just mj, kareem, bill, but duncan, kobe, magic all have more rings, even curry has gotten the best of lebron in the playoffs each time except once. Some may say Shaq was more dominant in his prime and has the same number of rings, or erving is a lot of hofers favorite player growing up, or even Larry. Id discount most those arguments but its easier for Lebron to be ranked lower in some all time lists than it is for jordan

[ScrantonBulls]

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to finish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum. LeBron obvious has been mythologised as well with which I hs e not problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to LeBron because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

The thing is MJ only has maybe 3 players that can use some argument to claim theyre better, Lebron (because its nowadays debate) Kareem (same rings, with two teams, longevity stats) and Russell (rings).
Meanwhile there are more arguable players vs Lebron… not just mj, kareem, bill, but duncan, kobe, magic all have more rings, even curry has gotten the best of lebron in the playoffs each time except once. Some may say Shaq was more dominant in his prime and has the same number of rings, or erving is a lot of hofers favorite player growing up, or even Larry. Id discount most those arguments but its easier for Lebron to be ranked lower in some all time lists than it is for jordan

If the basis for your argument is that you should simply count rings like some individual achievement, then your argument shouldn't be taken seriously. Just lol at "Curry getting the best of LeBron" in the playoffs.

[Rust_Cohle]

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to LeBron because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

The thing is MJ only has maybe 3 players that can use some argument to claim theyre better, Lebron (because its nowadays debate) Kareem (same rings, with two teams, longevity stats) and Russell (rings).
Meanwhile there are more arguable players vs Lebron… not just mj, kareem, bill, but duncan, kobe, magic all have more rings, even curry has gotten the best of lebron in the playoffs each time except once. Some may say Shaq was more dominant in his prime and has the same number of rings, or erving is a lot of hofers favorite player growing up, or even Larry. Id discount most those arguments but its easier for Lebron to be ranked lower in some all time lists than it is for jordan

If the basis for your argument is that you should simply count rings like some individual achievement, then your argument shouldn't be taken seriously. Just lol at "Curry getting the best of LeBron" in the playoffs.

Curry did get the best of LeBron in the finals, as did Duncan, dirk, KD, ginobili, the mist goes on and on and on. So many people won a ring on the biggest change over lebron. With Mj, he made so many hall of famers ringless

[ScrantonBulls]

The thing is MJ only has maybe 3 players that can use some argument to claim theyre better, Lebron (because its nowadays debate) Kareem (same rings, with two teams, longevity stats) and Russell (rings).
Meanwhile there are more arguable players vs Lebron… not just mj, kareem, bill, but duncan, kobe, magic all have more rings, even curry has gotten the best of lebron in the playoffs each time except once. Some may say Shaq was more dominant in his prime and has the same number of rings, or erving is a lot of hofers favorite player growing up, or even Larry. Id discount most those arguments but its easier for Lebron to be ranked lower in some all time lists than it is for jordan

If the basis for your argument is that you should simply count rings like some individual achievement, then your argument shouldn't be taken seriously. Just lol at "Curry getting the best of LeBron" in the playoffs.

Curry did get the best of LeBron in the finals, as did Duncan, dirk, KD, ginobili, the mist goes on and on and on. So many people won a ring on the biggest change over lebron. With Mj, he made so many hall of famers ringless

I needed a good laugh. Rust Cohle with the big brain analysis once again.

[michaelm]

Are you implying Jordan fans can't help but mythologize their guy to point of looking completely silly?

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to finish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum. LeBron obvious has been mythologised as well with which I hs e not problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to MJ because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

As I have said the truly hilarious thing is that you apparently consider yourself to be unbiased. I have been answering you in kind.

And while there is equal opportunity nonsense on the GOAT thread the Pippen thread is yet another of the endless Jordan had more help threads, which I rather think are not commonly started by Jordan fans.

As has been said recently here or elsewhere Jordan’s legacy was set in stone decades ago, and I would suggest you need to get over that. Your only basis for criticism of him seems to be to point to the great team that was built around him as if that was a negative, while hardly fulsome in your praise of your your own guy’s team-mates.

LeBron will have his own large legacy, but you guys are trying to make him into Jordan rather than the other way around.

[ScrantonBulls]

No I am saying they are not as insecure about their guy as Lezbron fans appear to be and that it is much more common for LeBron fans to initiate all this guff. You yourself have constantly tried to finish Jordan on the basis of the good team which was built around him and don’t exactly celebrate LeBron’s team mates.

MJ actually entered mythology before LeBron and even before the internet and does not need this forum. LeBron obvious has been mythologised as well with which I hs e not problem but don’t pretend mythologising or bias characterise only one fanbase.

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to MJ because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

As I have said the truly hilarious thing is that you apparently consider yourself to be unbiased.

And while there is equal opportunity nonsense on the GOAT thread the Pippen thread is yet another of the endless Jordan had more help threads, which I rather think are not commonly started by Jordan fans.

As has been said recently here or elsewhere Jordan’s legacy was set in stone decades ago, and I would suggest you need to get over that. Your only basis for criticism of him seems to be to point to the great team that was built around him as of that was a negative, while hardly fulsome on your praise of your guy’s team-mates.

LeBron will have his own large legacy, but you guys are trying to make him into Jordan rather than the other way around.

For the sake of this discussion, you named one "insecure" LeBron stan, I named two "insecure" MJ stans. Therefore, I'm correct and you are incorrect.

[michaelm]

This is absolutely hilarious and completely off the mark. Just in this page, you have one Jordan stan who has LeBron ranked at 10 all-time because LeBron triggers him, and you have the ultimate Jordan stan who has a signature dedicated to hating LeBron and attempting to prove he isn't the GOAT. There are zero LeBron fans here who are insecure enough to put MJ at 10 in their rankings or dedicate their signatures to LeBron because him being in the GOAT conversation upsets them so much.

But sure, LeBron fans are more insecure than Jordan fans That's just hilariously incorrect.

The thing is MJ only has maybe 3 players that can use some argument to claim theyre better, Lebron (because its nowadays debate) Kareem (same rings, with two teams, longevity stats) and Russell (rings).
Meanwhile there are more arguable players vs Lebron… not just mj, kareem, bill, but duncan, kobe, magic all have more rings, even curry has gotten the best of lebron in the playoffs each time except once. Some may say Shaq was more dominant in his prime and has the same number of rings, or erving is a lot of hofers favorite player growing up, or even Larry. Id discount most those arguments but its easier for Lebron to be ranked lower in some all time lists than it is for jordan

If the basis for your argument is that you should simply count rings like some individual achievement, then your argument shouldn't be taken seriously. Just lol at "Curry getting the best of LeBron" in the playoffs.

Although winning titles is the entire object of the sport individuals of course can’t win them on their own, and can obviously lose in the NBA finals despite playing fantastically well as has happened with LeBron. Curry btw does have a 3:1 finals record against LeBron no matter how you choose to slice it, and as a GSW fan I will take 4 titles for my team over what LeBron has done any day of the week. LeBron obviously has the broader talent, but Curry was a great player to build a team around in the team sport of basketball, and I will always have the memory of the 2017 team which is well in the conversation about the greatest team of all time unlike any of LeBron’s teams.

Your alternative seems to to be to make piling up individual player statistics, including individual player metrics which can’t be proven, the objective which is rather contradictory imo in a team sport. Many of those individual statistics are at least partly a reflection of longevity, and longevity while still great is an aspect in regard to which no-one can deny LeBron has Jordan and probably everyone else covered.

There is also the small matter that all of LeBron’s manoeuvres have been with the object of winning rings suggesting he sees them as somewhat important himself. if I am to be blunt I could say that he and more particularly his fans have retreated to making individual statistics the thing when it was realised he wasn’t going to match Jordan for rings.

[Hoop Hunter]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

[ScrantonBulls]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

[michaelm]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

Now you are entering the longevity argument in reverse.