RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ScrantonBulls]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

Now you are entering the longevity argument in reverse.

Just using logic, son. LeBron's size is what gives him an advantage over MJ. He can do every MJ fan so on defense + more. Hell, MJ wasn't even the best or 2nd best defender on his championship teams. Rodman and Scottie are unquestionably superior defender on the 2nd threepeat. Scottie is unquestionably better in the 1st threepeat, and Horace is arguably better. It can go either way with Horace IMO. I'd respect people who think MJ was better, but I disagree.

Let's look at the DRtg rankings in 92-93 and then 93-94 when he left.

92-93: 7th in DRtg
93-93: 4th in DRtg

For a guy lauded as such an elite defender, him leaving didn't appear to do a damn thing to the defense. Interesting, huh?

[michaelm]

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

Now you are entering the longevity argument in reverse.

Just using logic, son. LeBron's size is what gives him an advantage over MJ. He can do every MJ fan so on defense + more. Hell, MJ wasn't even the best or 2nd best defender on his championship teams. Rodman and Scottie are unquestionably superior defender on the 2nd threepeat. Scottie is unquestionably better in the 1st threepeat, and Horace is arguably better. It can go either way with Horace IMO. I'd respect people who think MJ was better, but I disagree.

Let's look at the DRtg rankings in 92-93 and then 93-94 when he left.

92-93: 7th in DRtg
93-93: 4th in DRtg

For a guy lauded as such an elite defender, him leaving didn't appear to do a damn thing to the defense. Interesting, huh?

MJ also has a DPOY, and 9 all defensive first teams vs 5 for LeBron so you are again happy to call black white and white black as it suits you, and to now use team ratings when you have argued team achievements are invalid. Peak LeBron did have a size advantage for defending 1 to 5, but has hardly played defense in the regular season for years. And the Bulls probably needed to play more defense in the absence of Jordan’s scoring.

[Djoker]

Read on Twitter

[The Explorer]

Read on Twitter

It's a nice effort, but gamescore fails to take into account defensive effort. James has had about a half a decade now (if not more) of poor defense, and doesn't even fulfill basic duties like getting back on defense.

[Hoop Hunter]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

I just a laughed at your post, laughing at mine. Clearly Jordan is the better defender. I've seen both play 100 of times. At least 25+ times each in person. Sounds like you've seen a lot of Lebron and not much of Jordan.

How many defensive player of the year has LeBron won? Very few guards have ever won it, that's how good Jordan was. 9x vs 5x time 1st team all defense, in less years.

Ok, LeBron is better at chase down blocks, big deal. Jordan is better at most everything else. The last several seasons Lebron hasn't even tried to play defense.

Jordan was one of the most dominant players in any sport, period. The GOAT of the NBA. LeBron is the best I've seen at 38-40, that doesn't make him better, just lasted longer.

This is from a Pacer fan who rooted against him half the time. Except against maybe Detroit, Celtics and New York.

[The4thHorseman]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

[michaelm]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Yet again this was initiated by a LeBron fan questioning Jordan’s defensive capabilities.

There is near universal agreement including on this thread that LeBron has pretty much every player in NBA history including Jordan covered for longevity at or near his peak. The poster who initiated the debate in regard to defence has been giving LeBron precedence over Jordan significantly because of his longevity. LeBron simply doesn’t have a longevity argument in regard to defence however and it should hardly be a surprise when it is pointed out that he has contradicted himself. I rather suspect Jordan might have been fairly good defensively in the 18 months he took off (after his father was murdered ffs) since he was in the threepeat before his time off and the threepeat after. The short season during Covid might also have been helpful to the title run of the elderly LeBron and an injury prone AD but the circumstances were what they were which had nothing to do with LeBron or AD and were the same for everyone.

What I don’t recall is Jordan ever deciding not to bother playing defense at any stage in his career with the Bulls.

[bledredwine]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

[ScrantonBulls]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Also, just lol at people bringing up DPOY for MJ as of he was truly a better defender than Hakeem or Eaton. DPOY awards given to guards are universally ridiculed. Does anybody really think Marcia Smart deserved it over guys like Gobert or Bam? Nope. It's a joke if you think otherwise.

[michaelm]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Also, just lol at people bringing up DPOY for MJ as of he was truly a better defender than Hakeem or Eaton. DPOY awards given to guards are universally ridiculed. Does anybody really think Marcia Smart deserved it over guys like Gobert or Bam? Nope. It's a joke if you think otherwise.

So the only unbiased poster on this thread considers individual accolades only count when LeBron receives them ?. Lol yourself.

As I have said it is a shame for you that you are not better as trolling. You appear to be unable to remember your recent previous arguments when you post the next one.

[MavsDirk41]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Also, just lol at people bringing up DPOY for MJ as of he was truly a better defender than Hakeem or Eaton. DPOY awards given to guards are universally ridiculed. Does anybody really think Marcia Smart deserved it over guys like Gobert or Bam? Nope. It's a joke if you think otherwise.

So the only unbiased poster on this thread considers individual accolades only count when LeBron receives them ?. Lol yourself.

As I have said it is a shame for you that you are not better as trolling. You appear to be unable to remember your recent previous arguments when you post the next one.

Its rather simple for him though, Jordan didn’t deserve any of his accolades and played on stacked teams his entire career.

James on the other hand deserved everything he received and more and had to carry his teams because of a lack of talent around him and poor coaching/management. Its really trolling at its finest. Funny thing is he wasnt even old enough to have watched Jordan play was he is for sure that he didn’t deserve his accolades.

[Rust_Cohle]

Taj with another spectacular meltdown oof

[The4thHorseman]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

[ScrantonBulls]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

What I find funny is that they legitimately don't understand how much more effort goes into being a wing defender now a days. It was much easier back when zone was banned and you just defended man to man. Defending in the modern NBA requires far more intelligence, and there is much more switching and much more movement. It is much more taxing. It's not close quite frankly. MJ fans generally don't want to apply any context or deep thinking into the subject. Imagine thinking MJ with the mileage that LeBron had (even 5 years ago) would be able to consistently play HARD defense In the modern NBA. Just lol. When MJ was old the pace of the game was so damn slow. Made it easier to defend without getting gassed.

It's also hilarious how they legitimately believe he (or any other guards) deserved DPOY. It takes some strong mental gymnastics to think a guard in the 80s would have the impact of a Hakeem or Mark Eaton.

[MavsDirk41]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

How many seasons has your guy played 82 games? 1…..how many did Jordan play? 9…..and pretty Jordan was still playing both sides of the court when he was old unlike your guy too.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

How many seasons has your guy played 82 games? 1…..how many did Jordan play? 9…..and pretty Jordan was still playing both sides of the court when he was old unlike your guy too.

Of course you have zero understanding of the pace of the game during the 90s, the rules that made it much less taxing to pay defense. You don't understand that players moved much less (less mileage) during that time. You don't want to apply any context because it won't help your narrative.

[MavsDirk41]

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

How many seasons has your guy played 82 games? 1…..how many did Jordan play? 9…..and pretty Jordan was still playing both sides of the court when he was old unlike your guy too.

Of course you have zero understanding of the pace of the game during the 90s, the rules that made it much less taxing to pay defense. You don't understand that players moved much less (less mileage) during that time. You don't want to apply any context because it won't help your narrative.

Ok good job

[michaelm]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

So only favourable comparisons of LeBron with MJ are allowable ?.

People mostly don’t put down LeBron’s defensive efforts spontaneously in threads like this one, they do so in response to people like you attempting to diminish Jordan. LeBron was an excellent to great defender during his very long prime, but so was Jordan over a prime which was also quite lengthy.

[bledredwine]

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

What I find funny is that they legitimately don't understand how much more effort goes into being a wing defender now a days. It was much easier back when zone was banned and you just defended man to man. Defending in the modern NBA requires far more intelligence, and there is much more switching and much more movement. It is much more taxing. It's not close quite frankly. MJ fans generally don't want to apply any context or deep thinking into the subject. Imagine thinking MJ with the mileage that LeBron had (even 5 years ago) would be able to consistently play HARD defense In the modern NBA. Just lol. When MJ was old the pace of the game was so damn slow. Made it easier to defend without getting gassed.

It's also hilarious how they legitimately believe he (or any other guards) deserved DPOY. It takes some strong mental gymnastics to think a guard in the 80s would have the impact of a Hakeem or Mark Eaton.

If it’s harder to defend, than it’s easier to offend and put up bigger stats.

You can’t have both so choose your poison.

But yeah, this is an excuse as even Kobe, KG and old Duncan had no problem defending until retirement.

[michaelm]

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

How many seasons has your guy played 82 games? 1…..how many did Jordan play? 9…..and pretty Jordan was still playing both sides of the court when he was old unlike your guy too.

Of course you have zero understanding of the pace of the game during the 90s, the rules that made it much less taxing to pay defense. You don't understand that players moved much less (less mileage) during that time. You don't want to apply any context because it won't help your narrative.

If I didn’t think lol was a peurile expression you would again have earned some more. You really need to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, or get your right cerebral hemisphere to inform the left if you will, assuming you have cerebral hemispheres.


Once again context seems to be something you apply to LeBron and not to Jordan. Jordan received his 9th all defensive first team nod the same year the Bulls completed the second threepeat when he was 35, longevity greater than most players if not LeBron whom everyone even on this thread agrees has pretty much everyone including Jordan covered for longevity in general. As I have pointed out you have chosen to put forward both individual awards and longevity as arguments when it favors LeBron, but Jordan’s defensive longevity is not your friend. I didn’t follow Jordan much when he returned to play for Washington, a return I considered ill advised although if he felt like playing why not ?, but as has been pointed out I don’t think he gave up playing in one end even at the age of 39 or 40. And you are contending that the one guy who matched or bettered LeBron for athleticism if not size could not have kept up with the pace of the modern game.

So just to recap some of your recent contradictory arguments you have dismissed the success of Jordan’s teams as team achievements, pointed to LeBron’s longevity and cherry picked the individual statistics and accolades which you consider to advance your cause, then dismissed Jordan’s defensive accolades and his longevity as a defensive player.

You also chided another poster for in your opinion letting likes and dislikes affect his rating of players then subsequently launched a diatribe in regard to how much you hate Jordan (as if we couldn’t tell) which had little or nothing to do with his prowess as a basketball player.

I have no problem with anyone rating LeBron above Jordan if they wish to do so, he was a very great player, but you continue to illustrate there is no compelling case for same, or not one that you can make anyway.