RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

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[Swindle]

I’ve been reading that it’s reported MJ hates the GOAT debate and thinks more current players deserve more respect. He’s gonna be a special contributor during NBC’s NBA coverage so don’t be surprised if you see him hyping today’s players in an effort to move the game forward.

I already knew he didn't like the GOAT conversation as he thought it was disrespectful to past players during his playing days.

But what sources did you hear/read this from?

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/michael-jordan-hints-lebron-james-stephen-curry-and-current-generation-of-nba-players-deserve-more-respect

[michaelm]

This website is oversaturated with genX and older millennial posters, so the MJ consensus on here will outlive the MJ consensus irl, but its inevitable that Lebron will be considered the GOAT at some point after he retires. I think its very obvious he already should be considered the GOAT and its silly its still even a debate.

So apart from you yourself apparently being a member of the now generation, why exactly is it that LeBron is obviously greater than Jordan ?.

[jehosafats]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

[MavsDirk41]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

[Jamaaliver]

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[bledredwine]

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Not to mention the record setting 72-10 season afterwards and arguable best team of all time.

Seems like the ceiling was raised.

[NBA_is_cringe]

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument

james is a better passer. see? that wasn't so hard. it's really not that complicated

[lessthanjake]

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The 2011 Heat were “a crap team”? That would be news to every human being on the planet in 2011.

[MavsDirk41]

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument

james is a better passer. see? that wasn't so hard. it's really not that complicated

Jordan better handles
Jordan better in the mid range
Jordan better free throw shooter

Is that complicated?

[Statlanta]

The Jordan vs. James debate basically defaults to whether or not you give credit for LeBron for having more responsibilities at times due to having injury prone teammates(Wade, Bosh, Davis, Love, Irving). Sometimes he looked better than Jordan because of it, sometimes he looked worse.

[jehosafats]

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The 2011 Heat were “a crap team”? That would be news to every human being on the planet in 2011.

Dallas was able to stop LeBron in the 2011-2012 playoffs with their zone defense, which ironically was illegal in Jordan’s day.

[MavsDirk41]

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The 2011 Heat were “a crap team”? That would be news to every human being on the planet in 2011.

Dallas was able to stop LeBron in the 2011-2012 playoffs with their zone defense, which ironically was illegal in Jordan’s day.

Wade didnt seem to have problem with it…. Did they play a different definitely when Wade had the ball in his hands? My kids come up with silly excuses too sometimes its common.

[MavsDirk41]

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The 2011 Heat were “a crap team”? That would be news to every human being on the planet in 2011.

Dallas was able to stop LeBron in the 2011-2012 playoffs with their zone defense, which ironically was illegal in Jordan’s day.

Meant defense

[jehosafats]

The 2011 Heat were “a crap team”? That would be news to every human being on the planet in 2011.

Dallas was able to stop LeBron in the 2011-2012 playoffs with their zone defense, which ironically was illegal in Jordan’s day.

Wade didnt seem to have problem with it…. Did they play a different definitely when Wade had the ball in his hands? My kids come up with silly excuses too sometimes its common.

If that's an excuse, what are you driving at? That Lebron James isn't a good basketball player lol?

[MavsDirk41]

Dallas was able to stop LeBron in the 2011-2012 playoffs with their zone defense, which ironically was illegal in Jordan’s day.

Wade didnt seem to have problem with it…. Did they play a different definitely when Wade had the ball in his hands? My kids come up with silly excuses too sometimes its common.

If that's an excuse, what are you driving at? That Lebron James isn't a good basketball player lol?

I think James is one of the greatest nba players of all time and only have Jordan and Kareem ranked above him. I just am tired of the excuses for his failure in the finals that year. He stunk up the joint. He is human. Just no excuses. Jordan let Nick Anderson steal the ball from him during the 95 playoffs and wasnt great that series. No excuses for him either. Lets cut the excuses out of this is all.

[jehosafats]

Wade didnt seem to have problem with it…. Did they play a different definitely when Wade had the ball in his hands? My kids come up with silly excuses too sometimes its common.

If that's an excuse, what are you driving at? That Lebron James isn't a good basketball player lol?

I think James is one of the greatest nba players of all time and only have Jordan and Kareem ranked above him. I just am tired of the excuses for his failure in the finals that year. He stunk up the joint. He is human. Just no excuses. Jordan let Nick Anderson steal the ball from him during the 95 playoffs and wasnt great that series. No excuses for him either. Lets cut the excuses out of this is all.

Interesting, since you seem to harp on this 'failure' a lot. Makes it seem like your own excuse to detract from his many accomplishments on the court. Jordan's record in the playoffs before Pippen showed up would seem a bit more consequential, considering he never even made it to the Finals before him.

In the Dallas series, Lebron had more turnovers than he had free throw attempts. Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers saw the free throw line more than him. Dallas had an effective strategy to neutralize his production. They could settle with Wade having arguably the best performance of either team in the series, so long as their mix of zone schemes and mismatches kept Lebron out of the lane and the ball out of his hands. Dallas made anyone but Lebron beat them, and they won.

[NZB2323]

MJ was a swell, your standard shooting guard. Lebron is the better all around player.

Well i don’t remember Jordan not showing up for a finals series…..

you could also look at it like jordan never took a crap team to the finals, but lebron did.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument

james is a better passer. see? that wasn't so hard. it's really not that complicated

The 1998 Chicago Bulls don’t make the playoffs without Jordan.

Pippen played in 44 games and had a back injury in game 6 of the finals, the only game in NBA finals history where 1 player(Jordan) outscored all of his teammates. In the last 2 minutes Jordan scored, stole the ball, and scored again. No other Chicago Bulls touched the ball. No other Chicago Bulls averaged 17 or more ppg during the playoffs. Dennis Rodman didn’t make an all-defensive team and washed out of the league afterwards. Luc Longley was the starting center and only played in 58 games and missed 3 playoff games due to injuries that would lead to his retirement in 2001. It’s the oldest team to ever win a championship.

Jordan’s VORP in the regular season and playoffs is almost equal to Pippen’s VORP + Rodman’s VORP + Kukoc’s VORP.

Jordan was arguably the best player in every playoff series he ever played in. LeBron wasn’t. We can compare GmSc of some series they had.

1985 Jordan: 24.6
1985 Moncrief: 23.2

1986 Jordan: 30.6
1986 Bird: 25.1

1987 Jordan: 26.9
1987 Bird: 26.7

1991 Jordan: 29.4
1991 Magic: 20.0

1993 Jordan: 29.6
1993 Barkley: 23.4

1995 Jordan: 21.6
1995 Shaq: 20.4

1996 Jordan: 18.5
1996 Kemp: 18.9
1996 Payton: 14.4
1996 Pippen: 13.4
1996 Rodman: 10.2

1997 Jordan: 18.7
1997 Pippen: 10.8
1997 Hardaway: 11.6

1997 Jordan: 23.4
1997 Malone: 16.8

1998 Jordan: 21.4
1998 Malone: 18.5

2007 Lebron: 10.6
2007 Parker: 16.2

2008 Lebron: 17.5
2008 KG: 17.6

2011 Lebron: 13.7
2011 Wade: 22.7
2011 Dirk: 16.6
2011 Terry: 13.4

2017 Lebron: 29.6
2017 Durant: 30.3

2018 Lebron: 28.3
2018 Durant: 26.9

Against the Blazers
2020 Lebron: 25.6
2020 AD: 27.7

2020 Lebron: 22.9
2020 Harden: 23.4

Against the Nuggets
2020 Lebron: 24.1
2020 AD: 24.4

I won’t include the playoff series after 2020 when Lebron was obviously outplayed but older than Jordan ever was with the Bulls. From ages 21-35, there was only 1 instance of a player having a higher GmSc than Jordan in a series. There were 8 for Lebron. Kemp had a higher GmSc by 0.4. Parker had higher GmSc by 5.6, Wade had a higher GmSc by 9.0, Dirk had a higher GmSc by 2.9, and AD had a higher GmSc by 1.1.

Jordan is also undefeated with homecourt advantage. Lebron has lost 4 playoff series with homecourt advantage.

[MavsDirk41]

If that's an excuse, what are you driving at? That Lebron James isn't a good basketball player lol?

I think James is one of the greatest nba players of all time and only have Jordan and Kareem ranked above him. I just am tired of the excuses for his failure in the finals that year. He stunk up the joint. He is human. Just no excuses. Jordan let Nick Anderson steal the ball from him during the 95 playoffs and wasnt great that series. No excuses for him either. Lets cut the excuses out of this is all.

Interesting, since you seem to harp on this 'failure' a lot. Makes it seem like your own excuse to detract from his many accomplishments on the court. Jordan's record in the playoffs before Pippen showed up would seem a bit more consequential, considering he never even made it to the Finals before him.

In the Dallas series, Lebron had more turnovers than he had free throw attempts. Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers saw the free throw line more than him. Dallas had an effective strategy to neutralize his production and they won. They could settle with Wade having arguably the best performance of either team in the series, so long as their mix of zone schemes and mismatches kept Lebron out of the lane and the ball out of his hands. Dallas made anyone but Lebron beat them, and they won.

Lol wow….ok

Jordan without Pippen:

84/85 82 games 28/7/6 ROY allstar allnba 2nd team 6th in mvp voting

85/86 only played 17 regular season games because he broke his foot

86/87 82 games 37/5/5 allstar allnba 1st team 2nd in mvp voting

01/02 38 year old Jordan only played 60 games averaging 23/6/5 - his best teammate was 23 year old Rip Hamilton who only played 63 games that season

02/03 39 year old Jordan played all 82 averaging 20/6/4 - his best teammate was 28 Jerry Stackhouse who only played 70 games that year

But yea lets crap on Jordan for winning 6 championships with Pippen as his Robin and act like he couldn’t do anything without him. Only a certain fanbase thinks this way.

And just stop with the excuses they are embarrassing

[michaelm]

I think James is one of the greatest nba players of all time and only have Jordan and Kareem ranked above him. I just am tired of the excuses for his failure in the finals that year. He stunk up the joint. He is human. Just no excuses. Jordan let Nick Anderson steal the ball from him during the 95 playoffs and wasnt great that series. No excuses for him either. Lets cut the excuses out of this is all.

Interesting, since you seem to harp on this 'failure' a lot. Makes it seem like your own excuse to detract from his many accomplishments on the court. Jordan's record in the playoffs before Pippen showed up would seem a bit more consequential, considering he never even made it to the Finals before him.

In the Dallas series, Lebron had more turnovers than he had free throw attempts. Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers saw the free throw line more than him. Dallas had an effective strategy to neutralize his production and they won. They could settle with Wade having arguably the best performance of either team in the series, so long as their mix of zone schemes and mismatches kept Lebron out of the lane and the ball out of his hands. Dallas made anyone but Lebron beat them, and they won.

Lol wow….ok

Jordan without Pippen:

84/85 82 games 28/7/6 ROY allstar allnba 2nd team 6th in mvp voting

85/86 only played 17 regular season games because he broke his foot

86/87 82 games 37/5/5 allstar allnba 1st team 2nd in mvp voting

01/02 38 year old Jordan only played 60 games averaging 23/6/5 - his best teammate was 23 year old Rip Hamilton who only played 63 games that season

02/03 39 year old Jordan played all 82 averaging 20/6/4 - his best teammate was 28 Jerry Stackhouse who only played 70 games that year

But yea lets crap on Jordan for winning 6 championships with Pippen as his Robin and act like he couldn’t do anything without him. Only a certain fanbase thinks this way.

And just stop with the excuses they are embarrassing

No doubt LeBron could do a couple of things better than Jordan, but the question for me is whether in a team sport being a ‘more complete’ player made LeBron’s teams better. IMO there was nothing peak Jordan lacked that the teams constructed around him needed, and if his teams were better that is part of the point.