NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 4 - The Final MVP Countdown!)

[eyeatoma]

Better efficiency. Better blocks, better scorer in general. Took over games in the 4th multiple times. Has also played 2 more games. Better FT percentage. Not having all star in Jrue on his team. Not having DPOY Brook on his team to prop up his own defense.

What do you mean efficiency? Also saying harden is not allstar is a stretch. He has been an allstar throughout his career and this year alone deserved an allstar. Supporting cast has been close between the two. Better blocks? That’s it? Giannis is the better defender.

Still waiting. You got nothing I am thinking.

Efficiency? TS% of Embiid is better than Giannis'

Supporting cast has not been close lol. Offensively they're better and defensively they're better than the Sixers. Giannis is the better defender? Embiid is the defense, that's the difference. How would Giannis fare without Brook Lopez and Jrue? Embiid is a top 5 defense by himself.

[AussieCeltic]

Is Embiid overrated as a defender? Don't get me wrong, he's an elite help defender and rim protector but he leaves a lot to be desired on the perimeter and always just sits in drop. Plus some average C's have had career nights against him this season. The Biyombo game made me look a bit closer and the numbers are pretty alarming. C's are shooting very high percentages vs Embiid.

Biyombo - 17/13/2 with 5 blocks on 67% shooting
Looney - 14/11/9 with 2 blocks on 75% shooting & 6/10/7 on 100% shooting
Capela - 18/20 on 70% shooting & 14/15 on 78% shooting
Jalen Smith - 17/12 on 60% shooting
Vuc - 23/19/3 on 58% shooting (5/7 from 3) & 21/12 on 67% shooting
Boucher - 13/10/2 on 67% shooting
Robinson - 10/16/2 on 80% shooting
Kessler Walker - 15/12 on 100% shooting
Wenyen Gabriel - 14 points on 67% shooting
Claxton - 25/11/2 on 92% shooting
Poeltl - 16/10/5 on 70% shooting and 14/10/2 on 75% shooting
Rob Williams - 15/9 on 100% shooting
B.Lopez - 26/6/4 on 62% shooting

[Exp0sed]

Embiid is MVP.

I mean the Sixers don't have any all stars on their team apart from Embiid, while the Bucks do.

your first sentence is already off the track and it goes downhill from there

Harden wasn't an all-star because he had one long injury and didn't play enough games otherwise he would have been an all-star this season - and you know that, so writing "the Sixers don't have any all-star" is disingenious on ur part imo

Harden will get slighted as always but the truth is he's been at least at 2nd team all-NBA level
so yeah, no all-stars but a top 12 MVP candidate

[AleksandarN]

What do you mean efficiency? Also saying harden is not allstar is a stretch. He has been an allstar throughout his career and this year alone deserved an allstar. Supporting cast has been close between the two. Better blocks? That’s it? Giannis is the better defender.

Still waiting. You got nothing I am thinking.

Efficiency? TS% of Embiid is better than Giannis'

Supporting cast has not been close lol. Offensively they're better and defensively they're better than the Sixers. Giannis is the better defender? Embiid is the defense, that's the difference. How would Giannis fare without Brook Lopez and Jrue? Embiid is a top 5 defense by himself.

Lol 76ers have the better offensive players. Defense Bucks are ahead. Now what Giannis is a better rebounder better fg% and goes to the line more. Again what arguement does Embiid have over Giannis. And btw Giannis was missing his main scorer for almost half a year.

[eyeatoma]

Still waiting. You got nothing I am thinking.

Efficiency? TS% of Embiid is better than Giannis'

Supporting cast has not been close lol. Offensively they're better and defensively they're better than the Sixers. Giannis is the better defender? Embiid is the defense, that's the difference. How would Giannis fare without Brook Lopez and Jrue? Embiid is a top 5 defense by himself.

Lol 76ers have the better offensive players. Defense Bucks are ahead. Now what Giannis is a better rebounder better fg% and goes to the line more. Again what arguement does Embiid have over Giannis. And btw Giannis was missing his main scorer for almost half a year.

I already told you, we just disagree.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[Exp0sed]

Is Embiid overrated as a defender? Don't get me wrong, he's an elite help defender and rim protector but he leaves a lot to be desired on the perimeter and always just sits in drop. Plus some average C's have had career nights against him this season. The Biyombo game made me look a bit closer and the numbers are pretty alarming. C's are shooting very high percentages vs Embiid.

Biyombo - 17/13/2 with 5 blocks on 67% shooting
Looney - 14/11/9 with 2 blocks on 75% shooting & 6/10/7 on 100% shooting
Capela - 18/20 on 70% shooting & 14/15 on 78% shooting
Jalen Smith - 17/12 on 60% shooting
Vuc - 23/19/3 on 58% shooting (5/7 from 3) & 21/12 on 67% shooting
Boucher - 13/10/2 on 67% shooting
Robinson - 10/16/2 on 80% shooting
Kessler Walker - 15/12 on 100% shooting
Wenyen Gabriel - 14 points on 67% shooting
Claxton - 25/11/2 on 92% shooting
Poeltl - 16/10/5 on 70% shooting and 14/10/2 on 75% shooting
Rob Williams - 15/9 on 100% shooting
B.Lopez - 26/6/4 on 62% shooting

)

idk if it's a personal preference or a schematic issue but he has been a very good help defender and very good at deterring penetration to the cup (by guards etc.) but his man to man defense has been below avg

alot of the Centers on ur list had great night vs him because he was hardly around (whether by scheme or just lack of urgency) to do basic stuff like box-outs and while he is very effective with his mobility, size and timing in regards to challenging shots - he often "forgets" about his man when he's coming over to help, and that ends up in a lot of easy buckets if the opponent can find that open big man in the paint

[Exp0sed]

What do you mean efficiency? Also saying harden is not allstar is a stretch. He has been an allstar throughout his career and this year alone deserved an allstar. Supporting cast has been close between the two. Better blocks? That’s it? Giannis is the better defender.

Still waiting. You got nothing I am thinking.

Efficiency? TS% of Embiid is better than Giannis'

Supporting cast has not been close lol. Offensively they're better and defensively they're better than the Sixers. Giannis is the better defender? Embiid is the defense, that's the difference. How would Giannis fare without Brook Lopez and Jrue? Embiid is a top 5 defense by himself.

say what?

Jrue \ Lopez \ Carter \ Allen are better than Harden \ Maxey \ Harris \ Tucker offensively?

that's rich..

Maxey is avging 20+ ppg in 60 TS% with a pretty low usage rate, yes he is a poor defender and not a good playmaker for others (at this point anyway) but he's an elite offensive combo Guard

he's better offensively than any non Giannis Buck and that's before we even account for Harden who is still one of the better offensive players in the entire league

what's Embiid record without Harden this season?
he'd be a 5th seed at best..

[ty 4191]

Doc Rivers gets more out of his teams when they don't have their stars. It's been noticed in previous years.

There's that, too. In addition to Embiid having much better teammates, Doc Rivers was voted a top 15 coach of all time. Michael Malone wouldn't make the top 150.

And that still doesn't explain the massive discrepancy between the Sixers going 9-5 without Embiid and the Nuggets going 3-7 without Jokic.

It's been proven by multiple posters in this thread, and in previous MVP thread, Go back and look for yourself.

So you don't actually know this, and can't back it up with any facts, but you claim it's true. Show the data.

The voters and many other people beg to differ.

Jokic leads Embiid in every one of these metrics, except two out of thirteen listed. They're both box scored based and impact based:

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

[ty 4191]

Not moving the goal posts. It's a bit ridiculous to preach elite efficiency when Jokic barely cracks 25 ppg.

Embiid is averaging 8 more points per game at 65 TS%. That's historic.

True Shooting Added takes into account volume plus efficiency.

Leaders this season:

Jokic: +291.8
Embiid: +228
Curry: +185.9
Sabonis: 183.2
Lillard: 182.9

Embiid is getting buried.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_adj_shooting.html

All players in NBA history, 15 FGA/G, single season, leaders in True Shooting %:

Jokic (22'-23'): .704
Curry (15'-16'): .669
Barkley (87'-88): .665
Jokic (21'-22'): .661
Stoudemire (07'-08'): .656
McHale: (86'-87'): .655
Curry: (20'-21'): .655
Barkley (88'-89'): .653
Embiid (22'-23'): .653
Dantley (83'-84'): .652

Now .704 TS% IS historic.

You add to that Jokic is improving his team's TS% by 10% (Embiid: 5%) and Jokic improving his teammates' eFG% by 10% (Embiid, 3%), and you see why Jokic is more valuable this season.

https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/team?Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&TeamId=1610612743&PlayerId=203999

https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/team?Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&TeamId=1610612755&PlayerId=203954

Jokic makes his teammates better, far more than Embiid. Those links prove it.

[eyeatoma]

Lol, well then sounds like you've got everything you need for Jokic to get his record 3rd MVP. I'll sit back and wait. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[CobraCommander]

Giannis and Embiid are volume scorers, so yes. When you are barely at 25 ppg, and are trying to preserve your FG% no.

Not moving the goal posts. It's a bit ridiculous to preach elite efficiency when Jokic barely cracks 25 ppg.

Embiid is averaging 8 more points per game at 65 TS%. That's historic.

I agree but Either way you look at it, the goal is to get points per possession right?


So You can take the best shot or get the best shot for your team (Jokic) or you can take a lot of shots (Embiid)-

There is a difference- and one is better than the other IF one wins more games than the other....

[CobraCommander]

Lol, well then sounds like you've got everything you need for Jokic to get his record 3rd MVP. I'll sit back and wait. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Oh now that you got Big PERK on speed dial, changed the hearts and minds of many REALGM poster, and your boy ducked the final run in with Jokic to preserve his standing in mvp run......

NOOOOOWWWWWWWyou gonna sit back and WAIT !?!? After you presented your flawed but convincing case hmmmm...




Where have I seen this trick before..._Oh yeah!

[Sharkboy242]

The discourse is saying that the NBA MVP is a participation trophy. Its unfair for Giannis and Jokic to have 2 while Embiid has none.

Emvpiid.

[Sixerscan]

Game Score encompasses everything *in a box score that hasn’t been updated in about 50 years* with simplistic weights that John Hollinger made up like 20 years ago. No one doubts Jokic’s ability to fill the box score.

https://itsxandery.com/do-stats-matter-in-basketball/


It’s been quite a ramble so far, so let’s sum up some of the key points.

Game Score is a number that quantifies the overall statistical performance of a player.

Unsurprisingly, there is a correlation between the Game Score statistic when applied to the team as a whole, and the overall outcome of the game.

Using the sample size of an entire NBA season (2020–2021), we can expect the team with the higher Game Score to come out on top approximately 93.7% of the time.

Ok and we can expect the team that scores more points to come out on top 100% of the time, so whoever wins the scoring title should win MVP, got it.

[ty 4191]

Game Score encompasses everything *in a box score that hasn’t been updated in about 50 years* with simplistic weights that John Hollinger made up like 20 years ago. No one doubts Jokic’s ability to fill the box score.

https://itsxandery.com/do-stats-matter-in-basketball/


It’s been quite a ramble so far, so let’s sum up some of the key points.

Game Score is a number that quantifies the overall statistical performance of a player.

Unsurprisingly, there is a correlation between the Game Score statistic when applied to the team as a whole, and the overall outcome of the game.

Using the sample size of an entire NBA season (2020–2021), we can expect the team with the higher Game Score to come out on top approximately 93.7% of the time.

Ok and we can expect the team that scores more points to come out on top 100% of the time, so whoever wins the scoring title should win MVP, got it.

Find us another metric that correlates more highly with wins than Game Score.

[GeorgeSears]

There are big MVP implications tonight. Giannis vs. Embiid, Jokic vs. GSW. For Embiid to distance himself he needs a big performance and a win over the Bucks. It could also help him if the Nuggets lose to the Warriors.

[psimanic1]

Embiid is getting it this year, because if he does not, he never will...65 games is too much for him

[Sixerscan]

https://itsxandery.com/do-stats-matter-in-basketball/


It’s been quite a ramble so far, so let’s sum up some of the key points.

Game Score is a number that quantifies the overall statistical performance of a player.

Unsurprisingly, there is a correlation between the Game Score statistic when applied to the team as a whole, and the overall outcome of the game.

Using the sample size of an entire NBA season (2020–2021), we can expect the team with the higher Game Score to come out on top approximately 93.7% of the time.

Ok and we can expect the team that scores more points to come out on top 100% of the time, so whoever wins the scoring title should win MVP, got it.

Find us another metric that correlates more highly with wins than Game Score.

I did? Point scored, 100% indicator.

If you're going to make some correlation claim at least use the relevant data point. We're not talking about teams we're talking about individual players. I don't know where Team Game Score can be found on b-r but given the Sixers' SRS and point differential is higher than Denver's I would assume the Sixers' average Team Game Score is higher than Denver's. If that were true would that mean Embiid is better than Jokic? I assume you would want to compare their individual average Game Scores which I assume has a different (lower) correlation number than 93.7%.

Anyway, you quoted a post that was weeks old but the whole point of that conversation was that there are serious holes in all of these individual player metrics because of the limited inputs on the defensive end. So if all you do is focus on getting defensive rebounds, steals and blocks then game score will think you are the best defender in the league by a huge margin even if you're giving up wide open layups every other time down.

[AleksandarN]

Anyone agree with Embiid?

Read on Twitter

[eyeatoma]

Lol, well then sounds like you've got everything you need for Jokic to get his record 3rd MVP. I'll sit back and wait. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Oh now that you got Big PERK on speed dial, changed the hearts and minds of many REALGM poster, and your boy ducked the final run in with Jokic to preserve his standing in mvp run......

NOOOOOWWWWWWWyou gonna sit back and WAIT !?!? After you presented your flawed but convincing case hmmmm...




Where have I seen this trick before..._Oh yeah!

He was hurt, just stop lol. He was going to play 3 games in 4 days.

You do realize that Jokic has missed the last 2 games, and might miss today as well right?

You seriously comparing me to OJ Simpson, lmao.