NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread)

[The-Power]

Jokic is in the lead. The plus/minus numbers are much better than SGA.

They aren't much better at all. Both have elite +/- indicators.

[Packbuckman]

I dont think guys get blackballed from the MVP race, I just think players priorities change later on. Like dont get me wrong, Giannis is still clearly a top 5 player. And his stats are still crazy elite. And Im not the biggest when it comes to BBRef advanced stats, but you look at his "advanced stats" the last couple years and his MVP years there is a difference.

I think we saw this with LeBron after Miami. Its not that LeBron wasnt capable of winning MVPs, I just dont think that was the focus anymore for him. He took his foot off the gas some in the regular season (again still crazy great stats) and was more focused with playoff stuff. I think Giannis is in the same boat right now.

I wont be shocked to see Jokic in that same boat next year. The one thing that could prevent Jokic from doing that is the lack of star power around him. He really cant afford to take his foot off the gas during the regular season because Denver needs Jokic to be Jokic basically every night, until they get a legit #2 or Murray steps up his game in the regular season.

I don’t know about the advance stuff don’t really pay attention to it been watching Giannis since he became a buck and he is a better player then his mvp seasons. He’s putting up over 30 pts a game on over 60% fg 11.5 rebounds and over 6 assists which no one has ever done like ever! His slow start from the free throw line is only thing from him being right there leading the league in scoring. Dame has been very inconsistent since he came here last nite was his best shooting nite so far but still barely 40% fg. Middleton same very inconsistent coming back from an injury then you add in the coaching debacle with Griffen the only consistent play has been from Giannis to be 2nd in East.

well, you can discard advanced stats all u want but you know..FG% is very misleading. Giannis takes very little 3's compared to other stars and other volume scorers. that's why we look at TS%, guys like SGA and Jokic have higher TS%, they've been scoring more efficiently than Giannis. Jokic obvously averages a few less pts a game (and less shots) because he chooses to, but SGA actually averages more points on higher efficiency and he doesn't have a player like Dame to take away alot of defensive attention and to set him up

on the other side of the ball, Bucks have been worse than average on D, with Lopez (who was basically the DPOY last season), Middelton etc. yes, Dame hurts them there but they still shouldn't be this bad defensively

SGA has a case for DPOY and is def on his way to an all-defense team, OKC has a better record so what exactly is Giannis argument over him rn? things could change ofc, but rn I really don't see it

Giannis is in his prime and he's awesome but both guys have been slightly better (and with less) thus far

perhaps Griffin is at fauly for some of that horrible D (and other issues) but be that as it may, that's where wer'e at now imo

Giannis should not be taking many 3’s if any at all that’s not his game. The TS% is going to be taking down by his 66% ft which was in the 50% at start of year his form has been way better since. That’s why embiid Per is higher he shoots 20% better but on the court besides that no one is playing better than Giannis. Last nite again Giannis was great on a btb dame 5-18 fg and no Middleton or Lopez. We shall see with the rest of the season with Doc as coach how D improves.

[yannisk]

guys like SGA and Jokic have higher TS%, they've been scoring more efficiently than Giannis. Jokic obvously averages a few less pts a game (and less shots) because he chooses to, but SGA actually averages more points on higher efficiency and he doesn't have a player like Dame to take away alot of defensive attention and to set him up

Giannis 31.3 ppg on 65.1% TS
SGA 31.1 ppg on 65.1% TS
Jokic 26.3 ppg on 65.7% TS

I don't doubt that when you wrote your comment it was true. But you are talking about miniscule differences that change from game to game.

today Giannis scores more than SGA in the same efficiency. Is it now Giannis above SGA? This can change by the next game again

there was never a meaningful gap in efficiency between SGA and Giannis and there is no gap with Jokic either. Jokic scores 5 ppg less, that is a gap. This is no knock on Jokic, he passes more but there is no way to know if the 65.7 would not dip to the still elite 65 for example if he took a few more shots

[MoneyTalks41890]

EPM of 9.8 on the season now

[Exp0sed]

guys like SGA and Jokic have higher TS%, they've been scoring more efficiently than Giannis. Jokic obvously averages a few less pts a game (and less shots) because he chooses to, but SGA actually averages more points on higher efficiency and he doesn't have a player like Dame to take away alot of defensive attention and to set him up

Giannis 31.3 ppg on 65.1% TS
SGA 31.1 ppg on 65.1% TS
Jokic 26.3 ppg on 65.7% TS

I don't doubt that when you wrote your comment it was true. But you are talking about miniscule differences that change from game to game.

today Giannis scores more than SGA in the same efficiency. Is it now Giannis above SGA? This can change by the next game again

there was never a meaningful gap in efficiency between SGA and Giannis and there is no gap with Jokic either. Jokic scores 5 ppg less, that is a gap. This is no knock on Jokic, he passes more but there is no way to know if the 65.7 would not dip to the still elite 65 for example if he took a few more shots

I was very aware of the miniscule differences, that's not what i meant, I didn't phrase my post well and what i wrote implied that they are more efficient than him which isn't what I meant

I was just quoting the Bucks fan that said "no1 has ever done it" by saying - hey, SGA is doing it right now - so what's the big whoop? and he's doing it with better defense and better team record

as for Jokic, yes it's def a gap but we have eyes and we know our history haha, meaning - he's already maintained similar levels of efficiency of higher volume (for example in the season he was by himself) or every single year when he ups his attempts in the playoffs

he actually started the season way below what we're accustomed from him, was taking alot of 3's at like 28%, even his FT's were shaky. that prompted that ridicilous thread about his "efficiency drop" - he's been on fire since then, well above 65%

we all know Jokic could take a few more shots every game and it wouldn't hurt his efficiecny, he preferes to get his teammates involved in th rs, nothing new here

anyways my point wasn't to argue they are scoring better than him (they are all very comparable and nearly indentical and like u say, it fluctuates - my point was that Giannis isn't doing anything special or historic (no1 has ever done that b4) as the poster I quoted was saying

[Exp0sed]

Giannis should not be taking many 3’s if any at all that’s not his game. The TS% is going to be taking down by his 66% ft which was in the 50% at start of year his form has been way better since. That’s why embiid Per is higher he shoots 20% better but on the court besides that no one is playing better than Giannis. Last nite again Giannis was great on a btb dame 5-18 fg and no Middleton or Lopez. We shall see with the rest of the season with Doc as coach how D improves.

i'm obviously not suggesting Giannis should take more 3's, I'm just explaining to u why "FG%" was the gold standard in the 60's,70's,80', 90's etc. however, the 3 pt explosion (in terms of frequency) has made it an obsolete and misleading stat, unless ur comparing player who take similar frequencies of shots, like bigs who don't take 3's or what have u

whose more efficient, a player who shoots 5-10 from 2 or a player who only shoots 3's and is 4-10?
one has 50 fg% and the other - 40%

well, Giannis shoots fts way worse than SGA and worse than Jokic (even if we use his career numbers or whatever), it is what it is

Giannis is great! no1 is arguing differently but he hasn't been as good as SGA or Jokic this season - so far
still a long way to go and Giannis gonna bring it for sure, we can count on his effort and domination

[Woodsanity]

guys like SGA and Jokic have higher TS%, they've been scoring more efficiently than Giannis. Jokic obvously averages a few less pts a game (and less shots) because he chooses to, but SGA actually averages more points on higher efficiency and he doesn't have a player like Dame to take away alot of defensive attention and to set him up

Giannis 31.3 ppg on 65.1% TS
SGA 31.1 ppg on 65.1% TS
Jokic 26.3 ppg on 65.7% TS

I don't doubt that when you wrote your comment it was true. But you are talking about miniscule differences that change from game to game.

today Giannis scores more than SGA in the same efficiency. Is it now Giannis above SGA? This can change by the next game again

there was never a meaningful gap in efficiency between SGA and Giannis and there is no gap with Jokic either. Jokic scores 5 ppg less, that is a gap. This is no knock on Jokic, he passes more but there is no way to know if the 65.7 would not dip to the still elite 65 for example if he took a few more shots

Jokic averaged 30 ppg on 63.1 TS% in the playoffs last year. Thats better efficiency than any playoff run Giannis had. So yes Jokic can score more while maintaining similar efficiency.

That being said you are correct. It is erroneous to act like Jokic has much better efficiency than Giannis or SGA right now. They are all scoring at similar levels of efficiency.

Giannis is having a great season but I am not even sure he is better than last season. He is more efficient now but worse defensively compared to before.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

SGA, Jokic, and Giannis are all really close imo. Giannis is probably having the most underrated season of the three.

Personally I had all three of them ahead of Embiid even before his injury.

[timO]

giannis is not in the conversation, he loses to utah embarrasing with a blowout 40-13 in 4Q, he has an all-star starter playing with him...he doesnt even leading the east

he has no chance right now, unless joker and SGA went down like embiid.

the doncic talk is another bored talk, a barely play in team has 0 chance, Z E R O

this is a SGA vs Jokic since embiid went down, till april 15.

If joker does like last year and coast last month, is SGA 100%.

[CD_41]

giannis is not in the conversation, he loses to utah embarrasing with a blowout 40-13 in 4Q, he has an all-star starter playing with him...he doesnt even leading the east

he has no chance right now, unless joker and SGA went down like embiid.

the doncic talk is another bored talk, a barely play in team has 0 chance, Z E R O

this is a SGA vs Jokic since embiid went down, till april 15.

If joker does like last year and coast last month, is SGA 100%.

You waited for this performance, huh? Singeling out performances does not make that much sense in the greater scheme of things.
Also Giannis had 33/7/13 on 11-5 shooting, so this was not his fault. Picking out random stats and hiding others is a tactic you don't really need.

Also, what is up with that embarrassing OKC loss to the DETROIT PISTONS on Jan. 28th, where the gave up 70! points in the first half??
Yeah, so SGA has no chance now

Listen, SGA is a great player and at least No. 2 on the MVP ladder. But talking down other candidates in the way that you're doing this is not the way. Be fair, include all the data and stats, include some context, give praise to others and don't be so biased just cause you love a team.

[bisme37]

Continue here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2355172