RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[The Master]

Yeah, he ended the debate, the power of his arguments will be studied for centuries.

[bledredwine]

I've been rewatching some parts of full games. Man, MJ's passing is criminally underrated.
He's almost always making the best decision.

This is what he looks like when he plays a top of the key role instead of the later elbow role in the system.

Watch on YouTube

1991 Finals averages - 31.2 ppg, 11.4 apg (3rd all time), 6.6 rpg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 bpg, 55.8 FG%, 3.2 TO pg.

I wish they had the plus minus for him during his prime. They only have the last two championships (+6 in 96-97 and +36 in 97-98)

[lessthanjake]

I've been rewatching some parts of full games. Man, MJ's passing is criminally underrated.
He's almost always making the best decision.

This is what he looks like when he plays a top of the key role instead of the later elbow role in the system.

Watch on YouTube

1991 Finals averages - 31.2 ppg, 11.4 apg (3rd all time), 6.6 rpg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 bpg, 55.8 FG%, 3.2 TO pg.

I wish they had the plus minus for him during his prime. They only have the last two championships (+6 in 96-97 and +36 in 97-98)

We have more plus-minus data for Jordan than you might think, actually. In fact, we have the plus-minus for all of his playoff games. See the following thread I put together last year: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107966922#p107966922. I think there might be even more regular season data now, since I think Squared has done some more tracking since I last updated that post. But, even as it is, the thread has on-off data for over 60% of the games Jordan played for the Bulls.

[bledredwine]

I've been rewatching some parts of full games. Man, MJ's passing is criminally underrated.
He's almost always making the best decision.

This is what he looks like when he plays a top of the key role instead of the later elbow role in the system.

Watch on YouTube

1991 Finals averages - 31.2 ppg, 11.4 apg (3rd all time), 6.6 rpg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 bpg, 55.8 FG%, 3.2 TO pg.

I wish they had the plus minus for him during his prime. They only have the last two championships (+6 in 96-97 and +36 in 97-98)

We have more plus-minus data for Jordan than you might think, actually. In fact, we have the plus-minus for all of his playoff games. See the following thread I put together last year: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107966922#p107966922. I think there might be even more regular season data now, since I think Squared has done some more tracking since I last updated that post. But, even as it is, the thread has on-off data for over 60% of the games Jordan played for the Bulls.

Awesome, thanks!

[JigenDaisuke]

If I had the number 1 pick in the all time NBA draft for every player that ever played I’m taking Michael Jordan.

[bledredwine]

I've been rewatching some parts of full games. Man, MJ's passing is criminally underrated.
He's almost always making the best decision.

This is what he looks like when he plays a top of the key role instead of the later elbow role in the system.

Watch on YouTube

1991 Finals averages - 31.2 ppg, 11.4 apg (3rd all time), 6.6 rpg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 bpg, 55.8 FG%, 3.2 TO pg.

I wish they had the plus minus for him during his prime. They only have the last two championships (+6 in 96-97 and +36 in 97-98)

We have more plus-minus data for Jordan than you might think, actually. In fact, we have the plus-minus for all of his playoff games. See the following thread I put together last year: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107966922#p107966922. I think there might be even more regular season data now, since I think Squared has done some more tracking since I last updated that post. But, even as it is, the thread has on-off data for over 60% of the games Jordan played for the Bulls.

These on/off numbers are incredible! He was a true video game character in the 80s.

Kudos to you for an awesome job. I really respect the data that you've put together.

[Jamaaliver]

The Big Fundamental!
Duncan had the skill and accomplishments to be in the GOAT Debate...but admittedly his production is lacking.

That entire system/culture was built upon occasional dominance with shared production as opposed to the best player carrying the offense every game.

But TD was cold. Maybe the most flawless player I ever watched.

Read on Twitter

[Jamaaliver]

His top-3 feels rock solid.

But no Steph or Kareem in the top-10 is kinda

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

[NyKnicks1714]

Not sure if it's been talked about in this thread, but who do you guys think is better: LeBron or Jordan?

[SlimShady83]

Not sure if it's been talked about in this thread, but who do you guys think is better: LeBron or Jordan?

According to Shaq, Jordan is and Kobe better then Lebron

[dWadeOwnzYou]

I voted for Jordan (just barely), but the fact that he's running away is just robbery. Jordan and Lebron should be much, much closer. Shaq shouldn't be too far behind either. Poll is skewed. Also, where's Kobe?

[VanWest82]

I voted for Jordan (just barely), but the fact that he's running away is just robbery. Jordan and Lebron should be much, much closer. Shaq shouldn't be too far behind either. Poll is skewed.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The poll is who's officially the GOAT? Many posters may have someone like Lebron a lot closer to MJ than they used to, myself included, but if Jordan still comes out on top for most it will be reflected as a lopsided victory.

If the poll was, for example, "rank each of the listed all time greats out of 100 for the purposes of GOAT points" then you'd get a result where Jordan and Lebron (and maybe Russell and Kareem) look a lot closer in terms of how their careers actually compared.

Also, I'd guess that for many who voted, Lebron's last four years - as impressive as they were - probably didn't move the needle as much as some might want to believe. Additional seasons of "really good" just aren't as meaningful when compared to "best in the league" so if you were already behind in "best in the league" seasons or "best in the league by a ridiculous margin" then "really good" doesn't catch you up for a lot of people.

[f4p]

His top-3 feels rock solid.

But no Steph or Kareem in the top-10 is kinda

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

While Steph could be top 10, it's very easy to not have Steph in the top 10, even if I doubt Shaq put any thought into it.

Steph has only been in the playoffs 10 times and in 3 of those suffered injuries that would have knocked almost every other great players team out. This year, where his team actually was knocked out, 2016, where he missed everything except the first half of game 1 in the first round (well he went 2 for 9 with 5 TOs in game 4 before being hurt again) and 2018 where he missed the first 6 games. Even someone like duncan on a dynasty missed 1 first round in 2000 as the defending champs and his team got knocked out in 4. Getting a championship (2018) and another finals appearance (2016) out of situations where most guys would just get a "better luck next year" has done some heavy lifting for his legacy.

So Steph's giving you fewer healthy playoff runs than basically any other top 10 guy, and by a wide margin at that. And by far his best statistical comparison in the playoffs is James harden. Whether it's peak, prime, career VORP or WS (almost identical), decline from the regular season ( both bad and almost identical), plus/minus (both very good over best 10+ year stretch), RAPM (both exactly +4.1 in one dataset), head to head numbers (very similar). So unless you think harden even has a top 15 case which basically no one does, even if you have Steph above it would be far from a lock for top 10 for steph.

Like there's basically no argument for him over MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, magic, or Shaq so he's got to be a lock over all but 2 of Kobe, kg, bird, Oscar, and everybody else from history.

[michaelm]

His top-3 feels rock solid.

But no Steph or Kareem in the top-10 is kinda

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

While Steph could be top 10, it's very easy to not have Steph in the top 10, even if I doubt Shaq put any thought into it.

Steph has only been in the playoffs 10 times and in 3 of those suffered injuries that would have knocked almost every other great players team out. This year, where his team actually was knocked out, 2016, where he missed everything except the first half of game 1 in the first round (well he went 2 for 9 with 5 TOs in game 4 before being hurt again) and 2018 where he missed the first 6 games. Even someone like duncan on a dynasty missed 1 first round in 2000 as the defending champs and his team got knocked out in 4. Getting a championship (2018) and another finals appearance (2016) out of situations where most guys would just get a "better luck next year" has done some heavy lifting for his legacy.

So Steph's giving you fewer healthy playoff runs than basically any other top 10 guy, and by a wide margin at that. And by far his best statistical comparison in the playoffs is James harden. Whether it's peak, prime, career VORP or WS (almost identical), decline from the regular season ( both bad and almost identical), plus/minus (both very good over best 10+ year stretch), RAPM (both exactly +4.1 in one dataset), head to head numbers (very similar). So unless you think harden even has a top 15 case which basically no one does, even if you have Steph above it would be far from a lock for top 10 for steph.

Like there's basically no argument for him over MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, magic, or Shaq so he's got to be a lock over all but 2 of Kobe, kg, bird, Oscar, and everybody else from history.

Sure, reasonable arguments.

I am not sure where I would put Kobe myself, he did a lot of winning, a significant amount of it with Shaq which is probably going to influence Shaq particularly now Kobe is no longer extant and had expressed regrets in his retirement about falling out with Shaq.

[MavsDirk41]

His top-3 feels rock solid.

But no Steph or Kareem in the top-10 is kinda

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

While Steph could be top 10, it's very easy to not have Steph in the top 10, even if I doubt Shaq put any thought into it.

Steph has only been in the playoffs 10 times and in 3 of those suffered injuries that would have knocked almost every other great players team out. This year, where his team actually was knocked out, 2016, where he missed everything except the first half of game 1 in the first round (well he went 2 for 9 with 5 TOs in game 4 before being hurt again) and 2018 where he missed the first 6 games. Even someone like duncan on a dynasty missed 1 first round in 2000 as the defending champs and his team got knocked out in 4. Getting a championship (2018) and another finals appearance (2016) out of situations where most guys would just get a "better luck next year" has done some heavy lifting for his legacy.

So Steph's giving you fewer healthy playoff runs than basically any other top 10 guy, and by a wide margin at that. And by far his best statistical comparison in the playoffs is James harden. Whether it's peak, prime, career VORP or WS (almost identical), decline from the regular season ( both bad and almost identical), plus/minus (both very good over best 10+ year stretch), RAPM (both exactly +4.1 in one dataset), head to head numbers (very similar). So unless you think harden even has a top 15 case which basically no one does, even if you have Steph above it would be far from a lock for top 10 for steph.

Like there's basically no argument for him over MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, magic, or Shaq so he's got to be a lock over all but 2 of Kobe, kg, bird, Oscar, and everybody else from history.

Sure, reasonable arguments.

I am not sure where I would put Kobe myself, he did a lot of winning, a significant amount of it with Shaq which is probably going to influence Shaq particularly now Kobe is no longer extant and had expressed regrets in his retirement about falling out with Shaq.

Not having Kareem in your top 10 is a tragedy tho

[pipfan]

I have tiers
MJ/LBJ
KAJ/Wilt/Russell/Duncan/Shaq/Magic
Bird/Kobe/Curry/Hakeem
Big O/West/KG/Dr. J/Jokic/Moses
It's a fight for the last 2 spots in the top 20 for DRob/KD/Giannis/Mikan

[michaelm]

While Steph could be top 10, it's very easy to not have Steph in the top 10, even if I doubt Shaq put any thought into it.

Steph has only been in the playoffs 10 times and in 3 of those suffered injuries that would have knocked almost every other great players team out. This year, where his team actually was knocked out, 2016, where he missed everything except the first half of game 1 in the first round (well he went 2 for 9 with 5 TOs in game 4 before being hurt again) and 2018 where he missed the first 6 games. Even someone like duncan on a dynasty missed 1 first round in 2000 as the defending champs and his team got knocked out in 4. Getting a championship (2018) and another finals appearance (2016) out of situations where most guys would just get a "better luck next year" has done some heavy lifting for his legacy.

So Steph's giving you fewer healthy playoff runs than basically any other top 10 guy, and by a wide margin at that. And by far his best statistical comparison in the playoffs is James harden. Whether it's peak, prime, career VORP or WS (almost identical), decline from the regular season ( both bad and almost identical), plus/minus (both very good over best 10+ year stretch), RAPM (both exactly +4.1 in one dataset), head to head numbers (very similar). So unless you think harden even has a top 15 case which basically no one does, even if you have Steph above it would be far from a lock for top 10 for steph.

Like there's basically no argument for him over MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, magic, or Shaq so he's got to be a lock over all but 2 of Kobe, kg, bird, Oscar, and everybody else from history.

Sure, reasonable arguments.

I am not sure where I would put Kobe myself, he did a lot of winning, a significant amount of it with Shaq which is probably going to influence Shaq particularly now Kobe is no longer extant and had expressed regrets in his retirement about falling out with Shaq.

Not having Kareem in your top 10 is a tragedy tho

I am guessing while perhaps surprisingly not putting himself in he is not putting in a relatively modern center whom many people consider to have a case over him.

[The Big O]

Shaq's list is the ammunition Kobe fans use in these debates lol.

[bledredwine]

Shaq's list is the ammunition Kobe fans use in these debates lol.

How quickly you forget.

Watch on YouTube

If I start a crap squad and need someone to raise their floor, I take Lebron. But if I have to choose someone in a given year to win the championship, I pick Kobe no question.

I’m not picking lebron ball over a system with Kobe in it.

[Luke]

Shaq's list is the ammunition Kobe fans use in these debates lol.

There are plenty of arguments for Kobe over Lebron. He was a better player, but the mass media needed to prop up Lebron as the face of the NBA and brainwashed the ( mostly young) casual fans into believing that Lebron had surpassed him, which has never been true.