2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

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Who will win MVP?

Curry
12
3%
Durant
3
1%
Harden
112
31%
LeBron
42
12%
Leonard
60
17%
Westbrook
109
30%
Other
20
6%
 
Total votes: 358

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1961 » by Pillendreher » Wed Apr 5, 2017 12:46 pm

HotRocks34 wrote:Here's what Westbrook needs in his final 5 games to achieve history:

* 1 more triple double game in his final 5 games to set a new record of 42 such games in the same season
* Raw numbers needed in the final 5 games to average a 30-point triple double ----> 25 points, 0 rebounds, 16 assists
* Average over the last 5 games needed to average a 30-point triple double --------> 5/0/4
* Try to maintain a 30+ PER as an additional element of the triple-double season


VORP race is still going on as well. Currently 4th all time.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1962 » by Goodfellaz » Wed Apr 5, 2017 1:52 pm

Westbrook is pulling away with a few games left. At this stage in the game, the vegas sportsbooks odds are the best information that we have.

Every book has westbrook as a pretty significant favourite now.

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1963 » by jg77 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 2:16 pm

LeBird wrote:Every team in the NBA would trade their top player for Lebron. People have to get twisted in mental gymnastics and side stories to give it to others.

If he doesn't get it, which is likely, Harden should get it. A triple double is just an arbitrary measure, one designed to be used as a marketing push this season.


I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1964 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 5, 2017 2:46 pm

RightToCensor wrote:The modern NBA is so beautiful to watch for me. So many great players doing so many great things, and we still have some generational talent capable of taking away our breath away waiting to hit the floor next season in Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid. The next five years are going to be interesting. So many records will get broken by this generation of NBA players.


Agreed. I really think that most people who complain about the new era do so simply because they don't want to see any change at all. But change never stops. What we're seeing now is basically something that could have existed decades ago if coaches had better understood how to exploit the 3 point shot. The only thing that would have stopped this permanently would have been a complete lack of vision on the part of all coaches for all time.

Of course for old-timers that leaves open the rebuttal that things were better before the 3-point shot, but that's not based on anything real. Those who love post play don't look at that era as the golden age by technique, merely by numbers. The golden age of post play came later, and it was always based on tying the hand's of the defense with rules to make them play with less intelligence than they would if left to their own devices.

None of this is to say I don't sympathize for arts with become lost, but nothing lasts for ever. I can love watching Julius Erving and his unmatched grace of movement with a red, white, and blue basketball in his hand and also recognize the limitations of his style. Moments in history now passed by need not be defended with righteous fundamentalism. They can instead be admired as art.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1965 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 5, 2017 2:47 pm

jg77 wrote:
LeBird wrote:Every team in the NBA would trade their top player for Lebron. People have to get twisted in mental gymnastics and side stories to give it to others.

If he doesn't get it, which is likely, Harden should get it. A triple double is just an arbitrary measure, one designed to be used as a marketing push this season.


I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.


Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1966 » by inDe_eD » Wed Apr 5, 2017 3:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
jg77 wrote:
LeBird wrote:Every team in the NBA would trade their top player for Lebron. People have to get twisted in mental gymnastics and side stories to give it to others.

If he doesn't get it, which is likely, Harden should get it. A triple double is just an arbitrary measure, one designed to be used as a marketing push this season.


I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.


Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


Yea I disagree with LeBird. I'd add Kawhi to that list too. No way the Spurs give up the future for a possible marginal improvement now. I say possible, because it's very likely the Spurs are better off with Kawhi even right now.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1967 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 5, 2017 3:48 pm

inDe_eD wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
jg77 wrote:
I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.


Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


Yea I disagree with LeBird. I'd add Kawhi to that list too. No way the Spurs give up the future for a possible marginal improvement now. I say possible, because it's very likely the Spurs are better off with Kawhi even right now.


Agree, and I'll go a little further:

Realistically, most everyone would consider LeBron's status as GOAT prospect validated, and in a draft of all these players coming into the NBA, LeBron would be considered the "best player available". Even Golden State, if they were honest, would draft LeBron ahead of Curry.

I think the Spurs would be a likely exception to that. I think that Pop is extraordinarily grateful that he gets to work with Kawhi instead of LeBron. In Kawhi you probably have the single most teachable player in the league - meaning, he listens, practices what you tell him to, and seems to be able to master anything someone else tells him to do. If everyone else on your team sees the star doing that, they become teachable as well.

Of course this culture predates Kawhi, and other players deserve credit, but none of them made the kind of ludicrous transition that Kawhi did.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1968 » by StepBackCrack » Wed Apr 5, 2017 4:53 pm

The narrative is on Russ' side. TD trumps everything for most. Fans and NBA has been looking for a reason to give it Russ and he delivered in the most important time to sway the voters to his side. He will win it now for sure. Tough luck for Harden. Injury costed him for sure.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1969 » by SeniorWalker » Wed Apr 5, 2017 5:06 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
RightToCensor wrote:The modern NBA is so beautiful to watch for me. So many great players doing so many great things, and we still have some generational talent capable of taking away our breath away waiting to hit the floor next season in Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid. The next five years are going to be interesting. So many records will get broken by this generation of NBA players.


Agreed. I really think that most people who complain about the new era do so simply because they don't want to see any change at all. But change never stops. What we're seeing now is basically something that could have existed decades ago if coaches had better understood how to exploit the 3 point shot. The only thing that would have stopped this permanently would have been a complete lack of vision on the part of all coaches for all time.

Of course for old-timers that leaves open the rebuttal that things were better before the 3-point shot, but that's not based on anything real. Those who love post play don't look at that era as the golden age by technique, merely by numbers. The golden age of post play came later, and it was always based on tying the hand's of the defense with rules to make them play with less intelligence than they would if left to their own devices.

None of this is to say I don't sympathize for arts with become lost, but nothing lasts for ever. I can love watching Julius Erving and his unmatched grace of movement with a red, white, and blue basketball in his hand and also recognize the limitations of his style. Moments in history now passed by need not be defended with righteous fundamentalism. They can instead be admired as art.


I'd agree with this, in that modern NBA offenses can definitely be a pleasure to watch. I'd much rather watch the warriors of the last 3 years than the pistons of '04, for example, though I do love great post play as well.

Where I'd disagree really is in the officiating standards. I'm not advocating we return to "thug ball" as the moniker often goes but for the life of me, as a fan of basketball art, I cannot stand when players simply March to the free throw line 10 times a game on calls that are made after no significant contact whatsoever. I just cannot be convinced to appreciate certain players who, while wise for doing so, know they can barrell into the lane without actually trying to score, creating contact by running into a defender who is actually doing his job by holding position, and simply flail their arms. This isnt even getting into flopping either. It's just awful to watch. This is not a true test of offensive versus defensive skill. It's gaming the system and it flat out sucks.

This is probably the only significant blemish on the modern game for me. It drives me crazy when I see it...and I don't even get mad at the players who do it.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1970 » by inDe_eD » Wed Apr 5, 2017 5:18 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
inDe_eD wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


Yea I disagree with LeBird. I'd add Kawhi to that list too. No way the Spurs give up the future for a possible marginal improvement now. I say possible, because it's very likely the Spurs are better off with Kawhi even right now.


Agree, and I'll go a little further:

Realistically, most everyone would consider LeBron's status as GOAT prospect validated, and in a draft of all these players coming into the NBA, LeBron would be considered the "best player available". Even Golden State, if they were honest, would draft LeBron ahead of Curry.

I think the Spurs would be a likely exception to that. I think that Pop is extraordinarily grateful that he gets to work with Kawhi instead of LeBron. In Kawhi you probably have the single most teachable player in the league - meaning, he listens, practices what you tell him to, and seems to be able to master anything someone else tells him to do. If everyone else on your team sees the star doing that, they become teachable as well.

Of course this culture predates Kawhi, and other players deserve credit, but none of them made the kind of ludicrous transition that Kawhi did.


I agree with everything you said. To add, I'm not that sure it's easy for an organization to build around Lebron, especially without totally warping to contour around his whims. Maybe the Spurs could do it, or at least reign him in some, but it certainly wouldn't be as easy as it has been with Kawhi. The Spurs get to be the Spurs, hover around the tax line, and develop young prospects, and Kawhi does his thing. We know Lebron is at least impatient, and probably a little short-sighted when it comes to those two things.

If you take it into account, Kawhi's got the most valuable contract in the league as well.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1971 » by Torchmode » Wed Apr 5, 2017 5:48 pm

Westbrook is building all the momentum.

Nobody is even talking about Harden anymore.

I think Westbrook has the MVP in the bag.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1972 » by jg77 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 7:01 pm

Torchmode wrote:Westbrook is building all the momentum.

Nobody is even talking about Harden anymore.

I think Westbrook has the MVP in the bag.


He basically just stole it from Harden this past week. What's even more exciting is that we have a high chance of Thunder vs Rockets first round playoff match.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1973 » by Fico92 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 7:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
jg77 wrote:
LeBird wrote:Every team in the NBA would trade their top player for Lebron. People have to get twisted in mental gymnastics and side stories to give it to others.

If he doesn't get it, which is likely, Harden should get it. A triple double is just an arbitrary measure, one designed to be used as a marketing push this season.


I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.


Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


He said their top player - KD...

I do think the Warriors trade KD for LeBron immediately.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1974 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 5, 2017 8:00 pm

Fico92 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
jg77 wrote:
I'm 100% sure Golden State wouldn't trade Curry for LeBron.

Anyway, I know there is evidence of Westbrook purposely going for triple doubles but is that any different from Harden refusing to sit and rest because of his wrist cause he knows he is in a MVP race with Westbrook? I don't really think the Rockets could lose the 3 seed spot so why not rest for the playoffs which are more important.


Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


He said their top player - KD...

I do think the Warriors trade KD for LeBron immediately.


No he isn't and no they wouldn't.

Curry is the #1 untradable guy on the Warriors.
Warriors still wouldn't trade Durant to get LeBron.

Think about it, anywhere LeBron goes, you basically have to completely throw out everything everyone else is doing and re-package it around LeBron. It's not just about his stubbornness, he's just not a great shooter, and that's frankly a major handicap. So then you add in his stubbornness and his age and it becomes pretty simple.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1975 » by Torchmode » Wed Apr 5, 2017 8:14 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Fico92 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


He said their top player - KD...

I do think the Warriors trade KD for LeBron immediately.


No he isn't and no they wouldn't.

Curry is the #1 untradable guy on the Warriors.
Warriors still wouldn't trade Durant to get LeBron.

Think about it, anywhere LeBron goes, you basically have to completely throw out everything everyone else is doing and re-package it around LeBron. It's not just about his stubbornness, he's just not a great shooter, and that's frankly a major handicap. So then you add in his stubbornness and his age and it becomes pretty simple.



I have to agree, at this stage in his career, I wouldnt trade Curry or KD for LeBron either,

To be honest KD is just as good of a player as LeBron, even better in some categories, the only knock on him is winning. They arent far apart from each other. Curry was considered the best player in the NBA last year as well.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1976 » by Fico92 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 8:18 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Fico92 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Add my 100% to the mix, so 200% if my math is right. :wink:

Curry and LeBron are both utterly untradable.


He said their top player - KD...

I do think the Warriors trade KD for LeBron immediately.


No he isn't and no they wouldn't.

Curry is the #1 untradable guy on the Warriors.
Warriors still wouldn't trade Durant to get LeBron.

Think about it, anywhere LeBron goes, you basically have to completely throw out everything everyone else is doing and re-package it around LeBron. It's not just about his stubbornness, he's just not a great shooter, and that's frankly a major handicap. So then you add in his stubbornness and his age and it becomes pretty simple.


You're not doing it for the benefits of having LeBron, you're doing it to get him off the team that wrecked your GOAT regular season last year...single-handedly dominating a series to an extent that has not been seen yet.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1977 » by Fico92 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 8:19 pm

You better believe the Warriors are trading Curry or KD for LeBron.

LeBron+Curry(or KD) + Thompson + Green is enough to win it for you with the added benefit of not having to face the one person who ruined your lives last year...lol
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1978 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 5, 2017 9:14 pm

Fico92 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Fico92 wrote:
He said their top player - KD...

I do think the Warriors trade KD for LeBron immediately.


No he isn't and no they wouldn't.

Curry is the #1 untradable guy on the Warriors.
Warriors still wouldn't trade Durant to get LeBron.

Think about it, anywhere LeBron goes, you basically have to completely throw out everything everyone else is doing and re-package it around LeBron. It's not just about his stubbornness, he's just not a great shooter, and that's frankly a major handicap. So then you add in his stubbornness and his age and it becomes pretty simple.


You're not doing it for the benefits of having LeBron, you're doing it to get him off the team that wrecked your GOAT regular season last year...single-handedly dominating a series to an extent that has not been seen yet.


Not if you know what you're doing you're not.


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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1979 » by Fico92 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 9:42 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Fico92 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
No he isn't and no they wouldn't.

Curry is the #1 untradable guy on the Warriors.
Warriors still wouldn't trade Durant to get LeBron.

Think about it, anywhere LeBron goes, you basically have to completely throw out everything everyone else is doing and re-package it around LeBron. It's not just about his stubbornness, he's just not a great shooter, and that's frankly a major handicap. So then you add in his stubbornness and his age and it becomes pretty simple.


You're not doing it for the benefits of having LeBron, you're doing it to get him off the team that wrecked your GOAT regular season last year...single-handedly dominating a series to an extent that has not been seen yet.


Not if you know what you're doing you're not.


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If you want a couple guaranteed championships you are.

You telling me that Curry, Kyrie, Love are beating LeBron, KD, Green, Thompson?

You telling me that KD, Kyrie, Love are beating LeBron, Curry, Green, Thompson?

You out yo damn mind.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1980 » by Shock Defeat » Wed Apr 5, 2017 9:52 pm

Torchmode wrote:Westbrook is building all the momentum.

Nobody is even talking about Harden anymore.

I think Westbrook has the MVP in the bag.

It's true that Harden hasn't done anything noteworthy in a couple weeks. Harden will face a lot of scrub teams these last two weeks where if he really wanted to he could pad his stats. The problem is though is that the media will call out Harden for it, saying that he's just statpadding when he should be resting and/or taking it easy because the Rockets could beat those teams anyway. He's in a lose-lose situation. Harden could drop a 50 pt triple double against the Pistons and I doubt anyone would care. There would be people saying why is Harden going all out in a meaningless game while he's injured? meanwhile Westbrook does the same thing and people are like he's carrying them to a victory. Harden can't win.

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