RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Spates]

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but

I believe this is what they call a double standard.

Do you know what it's called when an argument is simplified to make it easier to challenge? A strawman.

[Spates]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If it's about rings to you then it's safe to say Russell is your goat?

It's not about rings, it's narrative. There's no objective measure, it's story telling. I think Jordan has the more compelling narrative of success at the highest level

[Rust_Cohle]

If it's about rings to you then it's safe to say Russell is your goat?

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Expansion era (diluted league), barely any international players, zone defense was illegal. The league changed massively between MJ and LeBron's eras.

Tanking was far far more rampant in LeBron's era especially out east where the tanking lottery odds had to be flattened. Tanking was at an all time high during this time. LeBron had it much easier in conference than MJ did where his east was the better conference while LeBron was in the leastern conference. 5 of the top 6 teams were usually from the West in the 2010's.

The east during lebron's era also had a lot more teams that were sub .500 making seeds 5-8 than MJ's. We also had 3 times as many players from the West make All NBA than the East, as it was very very lopsided in the West's favor. With MJ's east, far more balanced. 2012-2017 Eastern conference was the weakest east (not as horrific as 2007 eastern conference) of the last 40 years.

[Rust_Cohle]

If it's about rings to you then it's safe to say Russell is your goat?

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Not sure why you quoted me, I wasn't the one who originally brought up rings.

But while you're at it, that would mean Kareem's first ring in 1971 doesn't count since there was no 3pt line and only 2 rounds played before the finals right? It wasn't until 1984 that conference champions had to play in the first round so where do the stipulations stop when comparing players?

It can count if you want it to, but too many people default to 6>4 so MJ is better but that is a very dumb and short sighted way to rank players without context. For me, it is the way Jordan won those rings with a double three peat. It may be another 40 years before we see a double three peat. MJ never ever lost a series with HCA, that is beyond insane. LeBron is phenomenal himself of course, but it's a lot more than just rings of MJ > LeBron for me.

[ScrantonBulls]

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Expansion era (diluted league), barely any international players, zone defense was illegal. The league changed massively between MJ and LeBron's eras.

Tanking was far far more rampant in LeBron's era especially out east where the tanking lottery odds had to be flattened. Tanking was at an all time high during this time. LeBron had it much easier in conference than MJ did where his east was the better conference while LeBron was in the leastern conference. 5 of the top 6 teams were usually from the West in the 2010's.

The east during lebron's era also had a lot more teams that were sub .500 making seeds 5-8 than MJ's. We also had 3 times as many players from the West make All NBA than the East, as it was very very lopsided in the West's favor. With MJ's east, far more balanced. 2012-2017 Eastern conference was the weakest east (not as horrific as 2007 eastern conference) of the last 40 years.

Sorry to upset you with the fact that the league was quite obviously weaker in the expansion era when there were barely any international players in the league. Went from 23 teams to 29 teams. It weakened the hell out of the league. That rant you went on that was full of opinions was nice, but it's pretty indisputable that the league was weak during the expansion era.

[Rust_Cohle]

Expansion era (diluted league), barely any international players, zone defense was illegal. The league changed massively between MJ and LeBron's eras.

Tanking was far far more rampant in LeBron's era especially out east where the tanking lottery odds had to be flattened. Tanking was at an all time high during this time. LeBron had it much easier in conference than MJ did where his east was the better conference while LeBron was in the leastern conference. 5 of the top 6 teams were usually from the West in the 2010's.

The east during lebron's era also had a lot more teams that were sub .500 making seeds 5-8 than MJ's. We also had 3 times as many players from the West make All NBA than the East, as it was very very lopsided in the West's favor. With MJ's east, far more balanced. 2012-2017 Eastern conference was the weakest east (not as horrific as 2007 eastern conference) of the last 40 years.

Sorry to upset you with the fact that the league was quite obviously weaker in the expansion era when there were barely any international players in the league. Went from 23 teams to 29 teams. It weakened the hell out of the league. That rant you went on that was full of opinions was nice, but it's pretty indisputable that the league was weak during the expansion era.

Nope, you can live in dream land all you want but LeBron colluded in what was statically the weakest eastern conference while statically having the highest number of ranking teams ever that the NBA had to change the rules. You can cope all you want, but lebron spent 90% of his career in the significantly worse conference that was yes, weaker than MJ’s east. Facts not opinions, look at the all nba players too. West was dominant, east was literally the leastern conference back then.

[VanWest82]

Sorry to upset you with the fact that the league was quite obviously weaker in the expansion era when there were barely any international players in the league. Went from 23 teams to 29 teams. It weakened the hell out of the league. That rant you went on that was full of opinions was nice, but it's pretty indisputable that the league was weak during the expansion era.

The mid-late 90s were definitely weaker, or top-heavy if you want to look at it that way.

The early 90s was one of the peak times in NBA history with a special combination of generational talent (Jordan, Dream, Barkley) in their primes, ATG players (Stockton/Malone, DRob, Ewing, Price/Dougherty, Clyde/Porter) spread around the league on contending teams, old guard greats (Larry, Magic, Isiah) still in the mix, and next generation stars like Shaq, GHill, CWebb being drafted. The league was as deep in talent as it had ever been and was more than capable of handling those first couple rounds of expansion.

[ball_takes23]

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Expansion era (diluted league), barely any international players, zone defense was illegal. The league changed massively between MJ and LeBron's eras.

Tanking was far far more rampant in LeBron's era especially out east where the tanking lottery odds had to be flattened. Tanking was at an all time high during this time. LeBron had it much easier in conference than MJ did where his east was the better conference while LeBron was in the leastern conference. 5 of the top 6 teams were usually from the West in the 2010's.

The east during lebron's era also had a lot more teams that were sub .500 making seeds 5-8 than MJ's. We also had 3 times as many players from the West make All NBA than the East, as it was very very lopsided in the West's favor. With MJ's east, far more balanced. 2012-2017 Eastern conference was the weakest east (not as horrific as 2007 eastern conference) of the last 40 years.

yep, they want to talk about diluted competition but have no problem with Lebron diluting his own competition by teaming up with them. Having 3 of the top 5 players in your own conference playing for your team, it doesn't get any less competitive than that. In 2015 3/15 members of the all-NBA teams were from the East, and 2 of them were on Lebron's team. If Lebron fans actually cared about competition, they would absolutely despise Lebron.

[lessthanjake]

Expansion era (diluted league), barely any international players, zone defense was illegal. The league changed massively between MJ and LeBron's eras.

Tanking was far far more rampant in LeBron's era especially out east where the tanking lottery odds had to be flattened. Tanking was at an all time high during this time. LeBron had it much easier in conference than MJ did where his east was the better conference while LeBron was in the leastern conference. 5 of the top 6 teams were usually from the West in the 2010's.

The east during lebron's era also had a lot more teams that were sub .500 making seeds 5-8 than MJ's. We also had 3 times as many players from the West make All NBA than the East, as it was very very lopsided in the West's favor. With MJ's east, far more balanced. 2012-2017 Eastern conference was the weakest east (not as horrific as 2007 eastern conference) of the last 40 years.

Sorry to upset you with the fact that the league was quite obviously weaker in the expansion era when there were barely any international players in the league. Went from 23 teams to 29 teams. It weakened the hell out of the league. That rant you went on that was full of opinions was nice, but it's pretty indisputable that the league was weak during the expansion era.

I’m not quite sure I understand the point being made about expansion weakening the league. What are you trying to say here about Jordan?

League expansion does not decrease the amount of superstars. And once the league has like 20+ teams, superstars virtually always go to teams without another superstar regardless of expansion (since, either way, they get drafted to bad teams that don’t have a superstar). So expansion doesn’t really meaningfully reduce the chance of teams stacking multiple superstars. That still just overwhelmingly happens through good teams having lucky trades of draft picks, getting a great player through a late draft pick, or a player going as a free agent to a big market (or forcing a trade there). The latter is basically entirely unaffected by league expansion, and the other two are only affected by it in the most minor ways (i.e. maybe a slightly lower chance of any individual team hitting a jackpot with a late draft pick the more teams there are).

The real effect of league expansion isn’t how it affects the concentration of superstars in certain teams. It barely affects that. The effect is in the quality of supporting cast players—which naturally goes down on average as there’s more supporting cast spots that need to be filled around the league.

Existing teams did need to give up some of their talent to the expansion teams, which watered down every team. But did this help the Bulls relative to other teams? That seems like an extremely tough sell, because the Bulls actually gave up the player that was picked #1 in the 1995 expansion draft. In the two expansion drafts in the late 1980s, the Bulls players got picked #7 and #8. The Bulls were actually arguably the team that gave up the most in the expansion drafts! So this didn’t help them relative to other teams with superstars (i.e. it didn’t help them compared to the other title contenders). It actually probably hurt them.

Expansion teams also took up high draft picks that other teams could’ve gotten and naturally pushed down most teams’ draft picks. Did the Bulls benefit from this relative to other top teams? Well, I’m not so sure. Without the expansion teams, the Bulls’ pre-expansion trade for the 1989 pick that ended up being Stacey King probably would’ve ended up being Glen Rice. That would’ve been way better! Absent expansion, the Bulls could’ve easily ended up with Rick Fox in 1991 instead of Mark Randall. Absent the expansion team picks in 1992, the Bulls would’ve been able to pick up Latrell Sprewell instead of Bryon Houston (indeed, Sprewell was picked exactly 4 spots ahead and there were 4 expansion teams). Bulls could’ve easily gotten Sam Cassell in 1993 instead of Corie Blount. Absent all the expansion, the Bulls would’ve been in line to get Greg Ostertag in 1995 instead of Dragan Tarlac, and Derek Fisher in 1996 instead of Travis Knight. Same with Bobby Jackson in 1997 instead of Keith Booth. And Al Harrington instead of Corey Benjamin in 1998. Would the Bulls actually have made all these picks? They would’ve been in a position to do so (since all those guys were picked a number of spots above the Bulls that was equal to or less than the number of expansion teams added to the league since Jordan’s career started), but probably would’ve picked duds some of the time anyways. But even capitalizing on one or two of these would’ve made them noticeably better, especially when we account for the fact that the Bulls always had some negative players in their rotation. So I think it’s hard to argue that the dilution of the draft didn’t hurt the Bulls just as much or more than it hurt other top teams (who wouldn’t have been in the running to draft someone like Shaq anyways). In fact, the Bulls were probably hurt more, when we consider they could’ve easily gotten Glen Rice without expansion happening between the time they traded for the pick and when the draft happened.

So where does that leave us? The expansion drafts themselves probably hurt the Bulls more than they hurt other top teams, including since they gave up the clear #1 choice in the 1995 expansion draft. And there’s little reason to think the diluation of the draft hurt the Bulls any less than most top teams. If anything, the draft dilution probably hurt them more, since they’d actually previously traded for a pick that ended up being a good pick during this time and they missed out on a multi-time all-NBA player because of league expansion pushing their draft pick down. So why should we think league expansion helped the Bulls relative to other top teams? We shouldn’t.

Granted, league expansion does create some bad teams that can be easily beaten, so they do tend to improve the records of top teams a little bit (though the second-three-peat Bulls actually didn’t do better against the new expansion teams, oddly enough). So, at best, you might argue that the Bulls records were inflated by a win or two. That doesn’t make winning a title easier though, since the difficulty of that is about the strength of the top teams, and league expansion probably hurt the Bulls more than it hurt other top teams. If anything, these circumstances make Jordan’s titles *more* impressive!

[Castle Black]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If it's about rings to you then it's safe to say Russell is your goat?

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Not to mention Bill Russell played in an era where there were only 8-12 teams in the league, and Boston was absolutely stacked cause they were the only team who could afford so many star players on one roster (there was no Salary Cap back then). Russell is an all-time great obviously, but it's almost impossible to compare him to modern greats because he played (and lived) in a different world than the one we're in today.

With that said, the NBA in which Jordan played is still significantly different from the one Lebron has played in throughout his career too. That's why I'm not huge on comparing those guys either, though it's def easier than comparing someone from the 21st Century to the 1950's-60's era of NBA basketball.

[Rust_Cohle]

If it's about rings to you then it's safe to say Russell is your goat?

No 3 point line, far less difference between lebron and Mj era than Russell era. Playoffs only 2 rounds as well back then if you were a top seed.

Not to mention Bill Russell played in an era where there were only 8-12 teams in the league, and Boston was absolutely stacked cause they were the only team who could afford so many star players one one roster (there was no Salary Cap back then). Russell is an all-time great obviously, but it's almost impossible to compare him to modern greats because he played (and lived) in a different world than the one we're in today.

With that said, the NBA in which Jordan played is still significantly different from the one Lebron has played in throughout his career too. That's why I'm not huge on comparing those guys either, though it's def easier than comparing someone from the 21st Century to the 1950's era of NBA basketball.

For sure the 90’s are very different to the 2010’s, I just meant it wasn’t nearly as pronounced as 60’s to 90’s.

[MavsDirk41]

Imagine complaining about “expansion era” nba in the 90s when several of the current nba superstars, James being one of the most guilty of this, have been teaming up/picking who they want to play with for years. Nothing impressive about that imo.

[ball_takes23]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If there was ever any doubt about how much Lebron is involved in the endless push for his GOAT case through the media, all you have to do is pay attention to the clips released from his podcast to confirm. so far on this season of his "Mind the Game" podcast he has stated that:

- Giannis would score 250 points in the 70s. This is a blatant attempt to put down other eras and prop up his own.
- Him and Luka cannot be blamed for losing to Minnesota, because there was 8 other players on the court. This is an attempt to deflect the blame on his teams failures not only for this year but for all of the other years where he has had all-star/HOF running mates in their primes and his team still came up short. However, when his team wins, all the praise should go to him: "That's what made me the GOAT"
- That rings are a team accomplishment, he doesn't know where ring culture in the NBA started. (Finals appearances, on the other hand, are very very important). Despite spending the last 15 years hopping from team to team trying to catch MJ's 6 rings, now it's not that important when he realizes he's not catching him. What are the chances he would be saying this if he had 7 rings? likely 0 to none.

It's pretty clear that he is frustrated that people still aren't buying into his argument despite paying off portions of the media (Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe) to do his bidding for him, So now he's trying to take matters into his own hands. And he saw the backlash he got the last time he tried to crown himself, so now he's attempting to make more subtle arguments (like Giannis scoring 250 points), but its transparent to anyone with two brain cells what he actually wants to say.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If there was ever any doubt about how much Lebron is involved in the endless push for his GOAT case through the media, all you have to do is pay attention to the clips released from his podcast to confirm. so far on this season of his "Mind the Game" podcast he has stated that:

- Giannis would score 250 points in the 70s. This is a blatant attempt to put down other eras and prop up his own.
- Him and Luka cannot be blamed for losing to Minnesota, because there was 8 other players on the court. This is an attempt to deflect the blame on his teams failures not only for this year but for all of the other years where he has had all-star/HOF running mates in their primes and his team still came up short. However, when his team wins, all the praise should go to him: "That's what made me the GOAT"
- That rings are a team accomplishment, he doesn't know where ring culture in the NBA started. (Finals appearances, on the other hand, are very very important). Despite spending the last 15 years hopping from team to team trying to catch MJ's 6 rings, now it's not that important when he realizes he's not catching him. What are the chances he would be saying this if he had 7 rings? likely 0 to none.

It's pretty clear that he is frustrated that people still aren't buying into his argument despite paying off portions of the media (Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe) to do his bidding for him, So now he's trying to take matters into his own hands. And he saw the backlash he got the last time he tried to crown himself, so now he's attempting to make more subtle arguments (like Giannis scoring 250 points), but its transparent to anyone with two brain cells what he actually wants to say.

Nothing was cringier than lebron saying 2016 made him the goat, but since he couldn’t surpass 6 rings despite klutch sports influence he is backtracking on ring importance. His insecurities are at a Ronaldo level now of cringe.

[MrTribbiani]

IMO LeBron is the GOAT.

Jordan and his fanboys are insecure over his legacy and keep doing revisionist history. Jordan benefited from a weaker era and was very lucky that he had a front office that constructed numerous super teams that helped him win.

[MrTribbiani]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If there was ever any doubt about how much Lebron is involved in the endless push for his GOAT case through the media, all you have to do is pay attention to the clips released from his podcast to confirm. so far on this season of his "Mind the Game" podcast he has stated that:

- Giannis would score 250 points in the 70s. This is a blatant attempt to put down other eras and prop up his own.
- Him and Luka cannot be blamed for losing to Minnesota, because there was 8 other players on the court. This is an attempt to deflect the blame on his teams failures not only for this year but for all of the other years where he has had all-star/HOF running mates in their primes and his team still came up short. However, when his team wins, all the praise should go to him: "That's what made me the GOAT"
- That rings are a team accomplishment, he doesn't know where ring culture in the NBA started. (Finals appearances, on the other hand, are very very important). Despite spending the last 15 years hopping from team to team trying to catch MJ's 6 rings, now it's not that important when he realizes he's not catching him. What are the chances he would be saying this if he had 7 rings? likely 0 to none.

It's pretty clear that he is frustrated that people still aren't buying into his argument despite paying off portions of the media (Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe) to do his bidding for him, So now he's trying to take matters into his own hands. And he saw the backlash he got the last time he tried to crown himself, so now he's attempting to make more subtle arguments (like Giannis scoring 250 points), but its transparent to anyone with two brain cells what he actually wants to say.

Jordan and his fanboys in the media do the same thing. It's very transparent and that's why less people are buying it

[MavsDirk41]

IMO LeBron is the GOAT.

Jordan and his fanboys are insecure over his legacy and keep doing revisionist history. Jordan benefited from a weaker era and was very lucky that he had a front office that constructed numerous super teams that helped him win.

Funny you calling someone insecure….look in the mirror lately?

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron has been chasing glory since Day 1. He's been a relentless ring chaser, at least through his prime, changing teams to get an advantage whenever the taps run dry. This GOAT narrative with him is the same. Can't make his case with rings, so he's pivoting to accumulated stats.

I love LBJ, watching him in the 2015 finals was basketball nirvana. I was beginning to see his case as the greatest. Now I'm irritated by petulance. The campaign is weak, it rinses his aura. Bro's begging.

People crown the goat without being lobbied. MJ, of course, was marketed heavily, but he was undefeated at the pinnacle of the sport x6. His resume speaks for itself.

If there was ever any doubt about how much Lebron is involved in the endless push for his GOAT case through the media, all you have to do is pay attention to the clips released from his podcast to confirm. so far on this season of his "Mind the Game" podcast he has stated that:

- Giannis would score 250 points in the 70s. This is a blatant attempt to put down other eras and prop up his own.
- Him and Luka cannot be blamed for losing to Minnesota, because there was 8 other players on the court. This is an attempt to deflect the blame on his teams failures not only for this year but for all of the other years where he has had all-star/HOF running mates in their primes and his team still came up short. However, when his team wins, all the praise should go to him: "That's what made me the GOAT"
- That rings are a team accomplishment, he doesn't know where ring culture in the NBA started. (Finals appearances, on the other hand, are very very important). Despite spending the last 15 years hopping from team to team trying to catch MJ's 6 rings, now it's not that important when he realizes he's not catching him. What are the chances he would be saying this if he had 7 rings? likely 0 to none.

It's pretty clear that he is frustrated that people still aren't buying into his argument despite paying off portions of the media (Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe) to do his bidding for him, So now he's trying to take matters into his own hands. And he saw the backlash he got the last time he tried to crown himself, so now he's attempting to make more subtle arguments (like Giannis scoring 250 points), but its transparent to anyone with two brain cells what he actually wants to say.

Jordan and his fanboys in the media do the same thing. It's very transparent and that's why less people are buying it

Yea Lebron James has no media influence….Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe, Perkins…..pot calling the kettle black?

[bledredwine]

IMO LeBron is the GOAT.

Jordan and his fanboys are insecure over his legacy and keep doing revisionist history. Jordan benefited from a weaker era and was very lucky that he had a front office that constructed numerous super teams that helped him win.

Jordan dominates him in this debate, as we’ve already established. It’s why Jordan nearly has triple the votes even after the Pc posters got bored and flocked over.
Your post uses defense mechanisms that say nothing about the debate and resort to insults. Try again.