Kareem's Defense

[tsherkin]

Actually, KAJ's DrawF is relatively pedestrian for the bulk of his career. He averaged 0.329 FTA/FGA, which is hardly that impressive next to someone like Tim Duncan (nevermind Shaq, David Robinson or Karl Malone). He had a few seasons where he was pretty decent and his rookie year was noteworthy, but he doesn't really stack up in that regard.

Ignoring obvious power-post players like Shaq and Dwight, look instead at the following examples (career FTA/FGA):

Tim Duncan: .442, better than Kareem's career-high
Bob Lanier: .322, about the same as Kareem
Hakeem Olajuwon: .363, about the same as most of Kareem's best years
Patrick Ewing: .379, better than most of Kareem's best seasons

Then you get these guys:

Alonzo Mourning: .604
Shaquille O'neal: .578
Dwight Howard: .812
David Robinson: .577

So yeah, Kareem didn't really do a great job of exerting foul pressure on his man. In his best years, he looked like an average year from Olajuwon and Ewing, but by and large, he lagged pretty far behind... mainly because his go-to move was a finesse shot that had him turning away from his defender. Sometimes he leaned in, but the skyhook isn't a good way to draw a foul.

Fantastic field-goal efficiency is how Kareem made his bones on offense.

[TrueLAfan]

I don’t understand the soft-pedaling of Kareem’s defense by talking about his offense. Come on. This is a guy who made more All-D teams than any C in history, who led the league in blocks four times, and was in the top 10 of Defensive Win shares for a dozen years. He’s 34th overall in career defensive rating—one spot ahead of Bobby Jones by the way—but that’s because we don’t have ratings for the first four years of his career. In the next four years, he had DRtgs of 89, 92, 90, and 92. If he’d averaged a 93 rating in those first four years, his career average would be ahead of Hakeem and Frazier. This is a guy who, as an very old player in 87, 88, and 89, held Hakeem and Ewing well under their scoring and shooting averages. Why are we acting like a guy who, by the vast majority of tools and personal observations, was an all-time great defender is something less? What am I missing here?

If you’ve got a “system” that claims Kareem isn’t a great defender, I think there’s a much greater likelihood that something is wrong with your measuring tool than with the defensive play of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[Sedale Threatt]

I guess I don't get bastillon's extreme fetish for team ratings and total win shares, which is something he only stumbled on very, very late in our RPOY project, as the end-all, be-all he treats them to be.

Certainly, they have a certain amount of value, especially when our knowledge gets limited by lack of personal experience and available footage.

But it's like that is the only data that matters, and it's so team-dependent I don't get how one guy deserves all the praise -- or blame -- for a rating, which is invariably what he does.

For example -- one of our participants just posted that Boston's best defensive games in the 58 Finals might have happened with Russell on the bench, injured. If they weren't the best, they were still outstanding -- 98 points, 37.1 FG% in one, 102 points, 34.9 FG% in the second.

Clearly, this team was very, very, very good, across the board. And yet, for most of the previous years, the rest of the Celtics were a bunch of slap dicks Russell tied together with his incredible play.

Now, that's true to a certain degree. Russ was the straw that stirred the Celtics' drink. But as I said, he usually heaps ALL the credit -- Olajuwon, KG, Nash, Russell, take your pick -- or ALL the blame on one player for a particular rating, and this makes zero sense to me.

Personally, I take the Jazz numbers with a grain of salt. Eaton was outstanding, one of the best ever, at what he did -- clogging the lane and eating up space with his big ass body . His quickness and foot speed was awful, though, and I think he'd really, really struggle in today's game, where teams are more than happy to take jumpers and 3s if that's what the defense presents.

Kareem, in his prime, might or might not have presented the impact Eaton did, but he was certainly formidable with his size, length, quickness and IQ. He slipped a lot in his 30s, but hey -- you can see the same thing now with Duncan, who was about as good a team/individual combo as I've seen in my 20-plus years as a fan.

Again, as good as Eaton? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But all that "not in (Player X's) league" hyperbole that he throws around because of some rating needs to be tempered with plain common sense when you look at the absolute mountain of corroboration that Kareem was, indeed, an outstanding defender in his prime.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don’t understand the soft-pedaling of Kareem’s defense by talking about his offense. Come on. This is a guy who made more All-D teams than any C in history, who led the league in blocks four times, and was in the top 10 of Defensive Win shares for a dozen years. He’s 34th overall in career defensive rating—one spot ahead of Bobby Jones by the way—but that’s because we don’t have ratings for the first four years of his career. In the next four years, he had DRtgs of 89, 92, 90, and 92. If he’d averaged a 93 rating in those first four years, his career average would be ahead of Hakeem and Frazier. This is a guy who, as an very old player in 87, 88, and 89, held Hakeem and Ewing well under their scoring and shooting averages. Why are we acting like a guy who, by the vast majority of tools and personal observations, was an all-time great defender is something less? What am I missing here?

If you’ve got a “system” that claims Kareem isn’t a great defender, I think there’s a much greater likelihood that something is wrong with your measuring tool than with the defensive play of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Plus about a million.

[ahonui06]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar should not be compared to Mark Eaton in any aspect of the game. This thread is hilarious.

[Minge]

Comment removed.

[Meatcookie]

Joey: Wait a minute. I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You play basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.
Roger Murdock: I'm sorry son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.
Joey: You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got season tickets.
Roger Murdock: I think you should go back to your seat now Joey. Right Clarence?
Captain Oveur: Nahhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone, let him stay here.
Roger Murdock: But just remember, my name is...
[showing his nametag]
Roger Murdock: ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.
Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.
[Kareem's getting mad]
Joey: And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.
Roger Murdock: [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

[ahonui06]

^^^Airplane was ridiculous.

[Jimmy76]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24McUaeca-w[/youtube]

[bastillon]

I don’t understand the soft-pedaling of Kareem’s defense by talking about his offense. Come on. This is a guy who made more All-D teams than any C in history, who led the league in blocks four times, and was in the top 10 of Defensive Win shares for a dozen years. He’s 34th overall in career defensive rating—one spot ahead of Bobby Jones by the way—but that’s because we don’t have ratings for the first four years of his career. In the next four years, he had DRtgs of 89, 92, 90, and 92. If he’d averaged a 93 rating in those first four years, his career average would be ahead of Hakeem and Frazier. This is a guy who, as an very old player in 87, 88, and 89, held Hakeem and Ewing well under their scoring and shooting averages. Why are we acting like a guy who, by the vast majority of tools and personal observations, was an all-time great defender is something less? What am I missing here?

If you’ve got a “system” that claims Kareem isn’t a great defender, I think there’s a much greater likelihood that something is wrong with your measuring tool than with the defensive play of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

and tell me exactly why you would use individual DWS or individual DRtg when you yourself stated that these ratings have nothing to do with the reality ? may I remind you about Odom and Bosh examples you gave the last time ?

what you're missing is this: not ONE of Kareem's teams was dominant defensively. vast majority of his teams were right around average. scenario like this never happened to Hakeem or Dwight. or Ben Wallace. or Ewing. they weren't "anchoring" average defenses like Kareem did. that's my problem with his defense.

there's nothing wrong with the system. team defense is perfectly reflected in team DWS. if they were average defensive team for so many years then KAJ surely deserves some blame for that.

I guess I don't get bastillon's extreme fetish for team ratings and total win shares, which is something he only stumbled on very, very late in our RPOY project, as the end-all, be-all he treats them to be.

Certainly, they have a certain amount of value, especially when our knowledge gets limited by lack of personal experience and available footage.

But it's like that is the only data that matters, and it's so team-dependent I don't get how one guy deserves all the praise -- or blame -- for a rating, which is invariably what he does.

so what you're saying is that Kareem's defense was great, but his teammates weren't good enough to lift them over mediocrity ? I don't get it. I'd like to hear some more about it though. could be a good explanation certainly (assuming it's true which I doubt).

[Sedale Threatt]

No, I'm saying that I don't understand why you automatically assign ALL the credit, or ALL the blame, to one one particular player for a particular result in a five-man game.

[bastillon]

Isn't he KG's biggest fan? It's hard to argue Kareem's d is overrated cause he didn't anchor elite DRTGs consistently, but then give full credit to KG when those Wolves teams were 15thish defensively most years... in fact the difference between the Wolves and Spurs was always on the defensive end, Minny outperformed them offensively most of the time

I'm not seeing much difference between 70s Kareem and 00s KG in terms of team defense and teammates.

21 DWS is league average defense. 8 of these teams were right around average defensively. Bucks 72-74 weren't all-time great either, they were just one-of-the-best-level. name any great defender (Russ, Dwight, Thurmond, Mutombo, Zo, Ben Wallace, Duncan, Hakeem) it just doesn't happen.

only KG had it somewhat similar, but there are 2 significant differences:

-Cassell/Hudson-Peeler/Gill-Szczerbiak aren't anywhere near as good as Kareem's teammates who were usually average/decent defenders in general

-08 Celtics had 41 DWS, 09 Celtics were right around 40+ level before KG's injury and last year's Celtics also played on that level when it mattered (and when they weren't demolished by injuries). none of Kareem's teams ever approached that level

I'm seriously questioning Kareem's defensive rep. his teams performed way too poorly to consider him all-time great defender. in his defensive prime only 3 teams played significantly above average and weren't all-time dominant either. that's just not enough.

you could read the topic... the point is that Garnett has proven his value as a defensive anchor when the Celtics were playing epic defense ever since he joined them (and vastly regressed when he wasn't on the floor, too).

it's been pointed out numerous times that Garnett didn't have the tools to make it work in Minnesota. it's your right to believe he was a worse defender when he was younger (I think you said once that you started watching NBA in like 06 so that could be true for you), but it's highly questionable assumption. Garnett was not only playing about 5-10 more MPG pre-Celtics, but was also far more mobile (containing T-Mac, playing zone defense top of the key... etc) and was a better rebounder too. like I said, it's your right to believe he was worse as a Timberwolf... it's just not very convincing.

so what Garnett showed and Kareem did not is team dominance in all-time manner. if at least one of Kareem's teams was at that level (or even a little worse but still historically great) I'd be convinced to believe he was truly as good as an anchor... but none of his teams were epic defensively and this is what's this defense is all about - team level.

what seperates Wolves KG and prime KAJ is context. one has proven he can anchor epic defense and the other... well, never did.

[bastillon]

No, I'm saying that I don't understand why you automatically assign ALL the credit, or ALL the blame, to one one particular player for a particular result in a five-man game.

yeah I know this is my problem in general, I'm over-simplifying. let's stay on topic though, alright ? why do you think team ratings are so low in KAJ's case ? why didn't he anchor better defenses ?

[druggas]

No, I'm saying that I don't understand why you automatically assign ALL the credit, or ALL the blame, to one one particular player for a particular result in a five-man game.

yeah I know this is my problem in general, I'm over-simplifying. let's stay on topic though, alright ? why do you think team ratings are so low in KAJ's case ? why didn't he anchor better defenses ?

I'll take a stab at this. Comparing KAJ with illegal defenses in the 70's and 80's to what amounts to big men playing zone today, is insane.

Also, KAJ was his team's first offensive option. He couldn't rest on one end or the other. And he played until he was forty. Could he have dominated like Eaton on defense? Sure he could. If he didn't have to play any offense, like Eaton, KAJ could have exerted all his energy towards the defensive side.

Unfair comparison when you rate an older player without the benefit of today's rule changes.

[bastillon]

I'm comparing KAJ to his contemporaries defense - that's why he was league average most of the time. simply throughout his career his teams were average on defense.

I'm not gonna give KAJ handicap on defense because of his offense. it's been well established that Kareem has huge impact on both sides of the court at the same time. that's a myth IMO.

[lorak]

Lets look at top 5 best defensive teams in a career for every center with great defensive reputation:

Hakeem (first number is DRtg below league average, second – season)
-4.9 1994
-4.7 1990
-4.0 1991
-3.0 1989
-2.8 1987

Robinson (only seasons without Duncan)
-4.6 1991
-4.1 1992
-4.1 1996
-3.9 1990

Eaton
-6,3 1989
-4,9 1988
-4,6 1987
-4,5 1985
-2,8 1991

Mourning
-6,1 1997
-3,8 1996
-3,3 1999
-3,1 2000
-3 1998

Mutombo
-5,1 1999
-4,4 1997
-4,2 2002
-4 1994
-1,7 1993

Ewing
-8,3 1993
-8,1 1994
-5,7 1997
-4,5 1995
-4,1 1996

Ben Wallace
-7,5 2004
-6,9 2007
-4,9 2005
-3,7 2003
-3,1 2006

Duncan (only seasons without Robinson)
-8,8 2004
-7,3 2005
-6,6 2006
-6,6 2007
-5,7 2008

Russell (data from Oliver’s book)
-9,2 1964
-8,3 1965
-7,5 1962
-7,2 1963
-6,6 1969

Wilt (data from Oliver’s book)
-6,1 1964
-3,6 1968
-3,5 1973
-2,9 1972
-2,2 1960

And now KAJ - unfortunately we don’t have data prior 1974, so 4 KAJ’s season’s are missing. But Elgee in POY threads showed us estimated DRtgs and Bucks with Jabbar weren’t nothing special on defense)
Abdul-Jabbar
-4,1 1974
-1,8 1987
-1,6 1981
-1,4 1986
-1,4 1982

So every center anchored multiple teams with at least -3 DRtg, every expect KAJ, who anchored only one great defensive team. So or he was the most unlucky great defensive center ever or he is overrated defender. Facts suggest that the second option is true.

[purple32gold]

cool, so now it's settled. call the presses.

[semi-sentient]

And now KAJ - unfortunately we don’t have data prior 1974, so 4 KAJ’s season’s are missing. But Elgee in POY threads showed us estimated DRtgs and Bucks with Jabbar weren’t nothing special on defense)

According to the numbers ElGee posted, the Bucks were 2nd, 4th, and 3rd in the preceding years. Unfortunately he only ran those numbers for the top teams so we really don't know the dRtg difference, but I'm pretty sure it's upwards of 2.5.

[druggas]

What exactly was the point of this thread?

[Minge]

KAJ was his team's first offensive option. He couldn't rest on one end or the other.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyRO5BImpwI (@ 1:05)

He did, on offense, despite being the "first option". In that clip, he didn't even cross midcourt.