Summary/Analysis of the CP3 Fiasco...

[Bobbcats]

I'll cliff notes it a lot quicker: The NBA tried to gift Paul to the Lakers and set up Dwight to follow. The owners got pissed, put pressure on Stern and he nixed it to try to look like the good guy.

+1. Although I think the value in the CP3 trade was okay, the D12 trade would've been terrible. Orlando should be getting a hell of a lot more than an injury prone and overpaid center.

The value is okay in a bubble. But, the best player was going to another team and the Hornets were getting a bunch of aging role players and not getting any picks or dumping any bad contracts.

It was a farce.

Those aging role players are still good and on decent contracts, you have to look at them as assets not as future Hornets players. On the contrary, in a bubble it's a terrible trade because they lose a player who might go back to being one of the best in the league for aging role players, but he is not going to resign so they have to ship him. About bad contracts: cap space is totally unimportant to the Hornets because they have no shot at building a respectable team through free agency. Name a good signing the Hornets have ever managed to make in the free agency. They have to make their magic with trades and the draft... and trades for the draft, which this probably was in the long run. If they were to sign players of the same level as the ones they got in the trade, they would have to spend much much more and for longer years.

[markjay]

I disagree with your analysis in important ways that I unfortunately don't have time to go into now, but I wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to very cogently and clearly put forward one of the more persuasive arguments I've seen as to why Stern was right. I don't agree, but it's nice to see at least one clearly explained rationale for his decision.

[Parataxis]

Well written.

I don't get (well I do, but I wish people were more rational) the whole 'it's because people hate the Lakers' vitriol. It was fairly clearly a business decision, and one that the ownership of the Hornets had every right to make.

There have been deals that were closer to being done that were vetoed by ownership of other teams before; this really isn't anything new.

[demcanes26]

Bobcats, there not even bad contracts. Dragic expire at the end of this season. Odom has a team option after this season, and Martin expire in another year. Folks crying about bad contracts are lying.

[vincecarter4pres]

The Celtics deal takes a steaming loaf on that flaming bag of dog poo New Orleans is about to get.

Unreal.

A bunch of guys on their own that could bring back at best 1 late first and an expiring, but if kept put them into high 30 win treadmill mediocrity for 3 or 4 years.

What a sham.

Their attendance is so awful already with CP3, the being competitive to sell tickets excuse is an abomination.

The team is owned by the league, there is no justification for this trade.

Luis Scola is a guy who was about to get dumped for cap space or an expiring to anywhere in the league that would take him.

Kevin Martin is the same player that got dumped for Carl Landry a couple seasons ago.

Odom is getting old and would be pissed and he's a little cry baby, literally, would have been a disaster in New Orleans.

Dragic? Tragic.

Had half a decent season once and a good playoff series, but he's fried bench scrub. Overrating of players like him happens all the time, I'm guilty of it myself. Get over it, he's not an asset.


And people are saying Houston overpaid and shouldn't have been in it and how the Hornets got a great deal?!

I feel like I'm in the damn Twilight Zone.


Wake up everyone! Pau Gasol is a borderline superstar people!

He had one bad playoff series after a mainly spectacular season and the rumors were it's cause Kobe more or less ruined his engagement snitching on him and he lost it.
But people want to say he's washed up and old?

I wouldn't give up a ton for him at that age and with that contract, but for that pile of Taco Bell verde sauce wrappers, oh man, what a steal.


Integrity has been thrown out the window the day the new CBA is ratified!


What is the reasoning to take this stack of donkey manure over Rondo and picks.
Jeff Green too?!

I don't even like Jeff Green, I think he's straight awful. But you want to talk about a guy with some future trade value to flip down the line, that is what he is.


For the record, I think it's Bush League the way it went down, but this trade is a back alley abortion for NOH.

[Bobbcats]

Bobcats, there not even bad contracts. Dragic expire at the end of this season. Odom has a team option after this season, and Martin expire in another year. Folks crying about bad contracts are lying.

I agree that's what I'm arguing. They're all tradeable players, the only reason it looks like the Hornets have "added" salary is they traded an expiring player who will undoubtedly be making much more than whatever's left on the players that are traded to the Hornets combined.

[demcanes26]

Well written.

I don't get (well I do, but I wish people were more rational) the whole 'it's because people hate the Lakers' vitriol. It was fairly clearly a business decision, and one that the ownership of the Hornets had every right to make.

There have been deals that were closer to being done that were vetoed by ownership of other teams before; this really isn't anything new.

22 of the 30 million come off the books in 2 years. It's not about money dude.

[demcanes26]

The Celtics deal takes a steaming loaf on that flaming bag of dog poo New Orleans is about to get.

Unreal.

A bunch of guys on their own that could bring back at best 1 late first and an expiring, but if kept put them into high 30 win treadmill mediocrity for 3 or 4 years.

What a sham.

Their attendance is so awful already with CP3, the being competitive to sell tickets excuse is an abomination.

The team is owned by the league, there is no justification for this trade.

Luis Scola is a guy who was about to get dumped for cap space or an expiring to anywhere in the league that would take him.

Kevin Martin is the same player that got dumped for Carl Landry a couple seasons ago.

Odom is getting old and would be pissed and he's a little cry baby, literally, would have been a disaster in New Orleans.

Dragic? Tragic.

Had half a decent season once and a good playoff series, but he's fried bench scrub. Overrating of players like him happens all the time, I'm guilty of it myself. Get over it, he's not an asset.


And people are saying Houston overpaid and shouldn't have been in it and how the Hornets got a great deal?!

I feel like I'm in the damn Twilight Zone.


Wake up everyone! Pau Gasol is a borderline superstar people!

He had one bad playoff series after a mainly spectacular season and the rumors were it's cause Kobe more or less ruined his engagement snitching on him and he lost it.
But people want to say he's washed up and old?

I wouldn't give up a ton for him at that age and with that contract, but for that pile of Taco Bell verde sauce wrappers, oh man, what a steal.


Integrity has been thrown out the window the day the new CBA is ratified!


What is the reasoning to take this stack of donkey manure over Rondo and picks.
Jeff Green too?!

I don't even like Jeff Green, I think he's straight awful. But you want to talk about a guy with some future trade value to flip down the line, that is what he is.


For the record, I think it's Bush League the way it went down, but this trade is a back alley abortion for NOH.

When you stop putting your feeling into it, and talk basketball people will take you serious. Rondo has 5 years left on his deal, and Green would have atleast 5 years in a S&T. The two drafts picks would be low as well. The Hornets could drop Martin, Odom, and Dragic in two years. The Rockets deal save NO much more money.

[Warriors Analyst]

The Celtics deal takes a steaming loaf on that flaming bag of dog poo New Orleans is about to get.

Unreal.

A bunch of guys on their own that could bring back at best 1 late first and an expiring, but if kept put them into high 30 win treadmill mediocrity for 3 or 4 years.

What a sham.

Their attendance is so awful already with CP3, the being competitive to sell tickets excuse is an abomination.

The team is owned by the league, there is no justification for this trade.

Luis Scola is a guy who was about to get dumped for cap space or an expiring to anywhere in the league that would take him.

Kevin Martin is the same player that got dumped for Carl Landry a couple seasons ago.

Odom is getting old and would be pissed and he's a little cry baby, literally, would have been a disaster in New Orleans.

Dragic? Tragic.

Had half a decent season once and a good playoff series, but he's fried bench scrub. Overrating of players like him happens all the time, I'm guilty of it myself. Get over it, he's not an asset.


And people are saying Houston overpaid and shouldn't have been in it and how the Hornets got a great deal?!

I feel like I'm in the damn Twilight Zone.


Wake up everyone! Pau Gasol is a borderline superstar people!

He had one bad playoff series after a mainly spectacular season and the rumors were it's cause Kobe more or less ruined his engagement snitching on him and he lost it.
But people want to say he's washed up and old?

I wouldn't give up a ton for him at that age and with that contract, but for that pile of Taco Bell verde sauce wrappers, oh man, what a steal.


Integrity has been thrown out the window the day the new CBA is ratified!


What is the reasoning to take this stack of donkey manure over Rondo and picks.
Jeff Green too?!

I don't even like Jeff Green, I think he's straight awful. But you want to talk about a guy with some future trade value to flip down the line, that is what he is.


For the record, I think it's Bush League the way it went down, but this trade is a back alley abortion for NOH.

When you stop putting your feeling into it, and talk basketball people will take you serious. Rondo has 5 years left on his deal, and Green would have atleast 5 years in a S&T. The two drafts picks would be low as well. The Hornets could drop Martin, Odom, and Dragic in two years. The Rockets deal save NO much more money.

And what does NO do with that money? This offseason is proving that top-tier FA's won't sign with teams like NO, GSW, Clippers and such or agree to an extension, so NO gets their money freed up for who exactly?

[Bobbcats]

And what does NO do with that money? This offseason is proving that top-tier FA's won't sign with teams like NO, GSW, Clippers and such or agree to an extension, so NO gets their money freed up for who exactly?

I think the point was it doesn't hurt the Hornets salary-wise which is the dumb stance Gilbert and many of the trade critics are taking.

And I agree with you the Hornets have no shot of rebuilding via FA. But with these guys on contracts that aren't bad, they should be able to make trades for picks and young players. I'm sure a good team would give them at least a pick and a prospect for both scola and odom as the playoffs approach, and if a team like the Bulls feels like they need a shooter for the playoffs, they might trade their low 1st round pick and something for Martin.They could really restock on young players by next year without having to go crazy on FA's with 5 year ridiculous contracts just to get through this season.

[clockwork247]

The Celtics deal takes a steaming loaf on that flaming bag of dog poo New Orleans is about to get.

Unreal.

A bunch of guys on their own that could bring back at best 1 late first and an expiring, but if kept put them into high 30 win treadmill mediocrity for 3 or 4 years.

What a sham.

Their attendance is so awful already with CP3, the being competitive to sell tickets excuse is an abomination.

The team is owned by the league, there is no justification for this trade.

Luis Scola is a guy who was about to get dumped for cap space or an expiring to anywhere in the league that would take him.

Kevin Martin is the same player that got dumped for Carl Landry a couple seasons ago.

Odom is getting old and would be pissed and he's a little cry baby, literally, would have been a disaster in New Orleans.

Dragic? Tragic.

Had half a decent season once and a good playoff series, but he's fried bench scrub. Overrating of players like him happens all the time, I'm guilty of it myself. Get over it, he's not an asset.


And people are saying Houston overpaid and shouldn't have been in it and how the Hornets got a great deal?!

I feel like I'm in the damn Twilight Zone.


Wake up everyone! Pau Gasol is a borderline superstar people!

He had one bad playoff series after a mainly spectacular season and the rumors were it's cause Kobe more or less ruined his engagement snitching on him and he lost it.
But people want to say he's washed up and old?

I wouldn't give up a ton for him at that age and with that contract, but for that pile of Taco Bell verde sauce wrappers, oh man, what a steal.


Integrity has been thrown out the window the day the new CBA is ratified!


What is the reasoning to take this stack of donkey manure over Rondo and picks.
Jeff Green too?!

I don't even like Jeff Green, I think he's straight awful. But you want to talk about a guy with some future trade value to flip down the line, that is what he is.


For the record, I think it's Bush League the way it went down, but this trade is a back alley abortion for NOH.

there are lots of teams who's willing to give up some prospect/picks for those guys you called trashed.

Bad contracts? don't think so, those guys are on great contracts, rondo is also a great contract, but I'm almost sure that NOH don't wanna keep anyone in the trade, all they want is to shed salary, getting picks ect... like stated, they wanted to sell the team right? why have rondo on the team for the next 5 years? he sure isn't going to be a #1 option on a rebuilding team...

[Kabookalu]

I think the point was it doesn't hurt the Hornets salary-wise which is the dumb stance Gilbert and many of the trade critics are taking.

And I agree with you the Hornets have no shot of rebuilding via FA. But with these guys on contracts that aren't bad, they should be able to make trades for picks and young players. I'm sure a good team would give them at least a pick and a prospect for both scola and odom as the playoffs approach, and if a team like the Bulls feels like they need a shooter for the playoffs, they might trade their low 1st round pick and something for Martin.They could really restock on young players by next year without having to go crazy on FA's with 5 year ridiculous contracts just to get through this season.

You're jumping like 5 steps ahead here; the players they're getting back aren't young at all, who knows if they could even get anything in value in return. Demps can't risk playing chess when millions of dollars are involved.

And I mentioned this in the Raptors board, the media has went to great lengths to make Stern the enemy here. I wonder if this is in retaliation for the media prematurely declaring the trade as good as done, have it blow up in their faces, and refusing to take responsibility of their own actions using Stern as a scapegoat?

[demcanes26]

U right, FA will not come to those teams, but the cap space allows you to trade for good players already under contracts. The Boston trade doesn't even provide NO with players they need. Don't get me wrong, they are good players, but they trade for those players, they still have to go out and sign a 2 guard, and a starting pf. So Rondo makes 11 million. You give Jeff Green 7 million. You sign Jamal Crawford for another 8 million, and you then sign someone like David West for another 7 million. You sign all those guys to contracts that are going to longer than any contract the Hornets would have traded for Paul. How is the Boston trade better?

[Kabookalu]

U right, FA will not come to those teams, but the cap space allows you to trade for good players already under contracts. The Boston trade doesn't even provide NO with players they need. Don't get me wrong, they are good players, but they trade for those players, they still have to go out and sign a 2 guard, and a starting pf. So Rondo makes 11 million. You give Jeff Green 7 million. You sign Jamal Crawford for another 8 million, and you then sign someone like David West for another 7 million. You sign all those guys to contracts that are going to longer than any contract the Hornets would have traded for Paul. How is the Boston trade better?

Why are the Hornets going to do these things again to purposely put themselves in a bad position?

[Bobbcats]

You're jumping like 5 steps ahead here; the players they're getting back aren't young at all, who knows if they could even get anything in value in return. Demps can't risk playing chess when millions of dollars are involved.

I am positive that playoff teams will want at least Scola and Odom by the deadline enough to send a pick and maybe prospects the Hornets way provided they stay healthy. They are high-impact veterans and with short contracts so if they're available and you're going for a championship it's a good deal

[karkinos]

i dont really find odom or scola's contracts to be crippling in money or in length

[Kabookalu]

I am positive that playoff teams will want at least Scola and Odom by the deadline enough to send a pick and maybe prospects the Hornets way provided they stay healthy. They are high-impact veterans and with short contracts so if they're available and you're going for a championship it's a good deal

Your intuition doesn't mean **** when the owners are going to be paying significantly more just to see something that might not even happen.

[Warriors Analyst]

And what does NO do with that money? This offseason is proving that top-tier FA's won't sign with teams like NO, GSW, Clippers and such or agree to an extension, so NO gets their money freed up for who exactly?

I think the point was it doesn't hurt the Hornets salary-wise which is the dumb stance Gilbert and many of the trade critics are taking.

And I agree with you the Hornets have no shot of rebuilding via FA. But with these guys on contracts that aren't bad, they should be able to make trades for picks and young players. I'm sure a good team would give them at least a pick and a prospect for both scola and odom as the playoffs approach, and if a team like the Bulls feels like they need a shooter for the playoffs, they might trade their low 1st round pick and something for Martin.They could really restock on young players by next year without having to go crazy on FA's with 5 year ridiculous contracts just to get through this season.

Ok, but individually what are Martin or Odom or Scola worth when not packaged in this trade? I doubt you can get an A-level prospect for any of those players or a top 10 pick.

[Kabookalu]

i dont really find odom or scola's contracts to be crippling in money or in length

They also play the same position, that's pretty crippling when you're paying an average PF rotation $17 million next season, and while Odom expires if they don't pick up his option, Scola's runs on for eternity.

[demcanes26]

I think the point was it doesn't hurt the Hornets salary-wise which is the dumb stance Gilbert and many of the trade critics are taking.

And I agree with you the Hornets have no shot of rebuilding via FA. But with these guys on contracts that aren't bad, they should be able to make trades for picks and young players. I'm sure a good team would give them at least a pick and a prospect for both scola and odom as the playoffs approach, and if a team like the Bulls feels like they need a shooter for the playoffs, they might trade their low 1st round pick and something for Martin.They could really restock on young players by next year without having to go crazy on FA's with 5 year ridiculous contracts just to get through this season.

You're jumping like 5 steps ahead here; the players they're getting back aren't young at all, who knows if they could even get anything in value in return. Demps can't risk playing chess when millions of dollars are involved.

And I mentioned this in the Raptors board, the media has went to great lengths to make Stern the enemy here. I wonder if this is in retaliation for the media prematurely declaring the trade as good as done, have it blow up in their faces, and refusing to take responsibility of their own actions using Stern as a scapegoat?

Because they all have resonable contracts that can be easily moved. The Mavs just got a hugh trade exception from Chandler. You don't think they would give up a first rounder to get Odom. Especially knowing that can decline his team option and still have cap space?