90s vs. modern defensive rules and Mythbusting

[bledredwine]

FIBA Rules are therefore better. More handchecking, more post play and more passing instead of isolations.

Exactly, and Kobe himself said this.

[bledredwine]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp2QBmFmwAM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7U8_LoyxSM&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMZ1lUz9rI[/youtube]

[ClosetMonkey]

Ricky averaged 6,5 pts and 3,7 ast in Spain and 10,6 8,2 in the NBA.

[bledredwine]

Ricky averaged 6,5 pts and 3,7 ast in Spain and 10,6 8,2 in the NBA.

his rookie season in the nba

good find

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT7eGylHNe0[/youtube]

[Mr Grant Hill]

I've already been given one post of made up stuff. I've given you guys proof.

Give me links so that I can read and discuss.

Also, can you explain the spike in scoring to me? How Stackhouse of all players scored 30 PPG? I'm still waiting for someone to explain this. And Jerry, Kobe, T-Mac, etc all continued dominating like this. The rules weren't changed back. Also, show me a list of FGA though honestly it'll have little to no avail because these guys continued to score high since the rules took effect and after the spike,

and their FGA have stayed way up there as well. Part of the reason these rule changes were made was to give the league more star power especially from the perimeter,

so if Kobe takes 3 more shots because it's easier to score for the star and the perimeter player next to him takes 3 or more less,
what does that prove?

Made up stuff, I got this "made up stuff" from the link you quoted .
So what about Stackhouse?
They changed the rules for the 99-00 season and Stackhouse has 1 (!) 30 PPG season in 00-01?
They changed the rules for the 99-00 season and Kobe starts scoring 25+ PPG (per 36min) in 00-01?
So it took them one year to figure that out? Or was it maybe an exception (Stackhouse) and natural progress (Kobe)?
If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why did the FG% go down from 45.0 (97-98) to 44.9 (99-00) to 44.3 (00-01)?
If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why didn't it have an overall influence on PPG: 95.6 in 97-98, 94.8 in 00-01, 95.5 in 01-02, 95.1 in 02-03, 93.4 in 03-04 .
A "real" change - a change you can see in the stats - was strengthening the handchecking rules for the 04-05 season. With 93.4 PPG in 03-04 they literally had an alltime low in scoring and had to do something against it.

[bledredwine]

I've already been given one post of made up stuff. I've given you guys proof.

Give me links so that I can read and discuss.

Also, can you explain the spike in scoring to me? How Stackhouse of all players scored 30 PPG? I'm still waiting for someone to explain this. And Jerry, Kobe, T-Mac, etc all continued dominating like this. The rules weren't changed back. Also, show me a list of FGA though honestly it'll have little to no avail because these guys continued to score high since the rules took effect and after the spike,

and their FGA have stayed way up there as well. Part of the reason these rule changes were made was to give the league more star power especially from the perimeter,

so if Kobe takes 3 more shots because it's easier to score for the star and the perimeter player next to him takes 3 or more less,
what does that prove?

Made up stuff, I got this "made up stuff" from the link you quoted .
So what about Stackhouse?
They changed the rules for the 99-00 season and Stackhouse has 1 (!) 30 PPG season in 00-01?
They changed the rules for the 99-00 season and Kobe starts scoring 25+ PPG (per 36min) in 00-01?
So it took them one year to figure that out? Or was it maybe an exception (Stackhouse) and natural progress (Kobe)?
If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why did the FG% go down from 45.0 (97-98) to 44.9 (99-00) to 44.3 (00-01)?
If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why didn't it have an overall influence on PPG: 95.6 in 97-98, 94.8 in 00-01, 95.5 in 01-02, 95.1 in 02-03, 93.4 in 03-04 .
A "real" change - a change you can see in the stats - was strengthening the handchecking rules for the 04-05 season. With 93.4 PPG in 03-04 they literally had an alltime low in scoring and had to do something against it.

Dude, you're seriously using points per game in a post about PERIMETER SCORING? Have I not made it apparent that perimeter players scored more and generally centers scored less? Of course the PPG will waver that 1-2 PPG... you're really struggling there. Had it not occurred to you that centers score less since the rule changes? Where are your Ewings, Hakeems, Barkleys, etc at PF/C? Of course that'll lower the PPG, but there's no denying the increase in PERIMETER PLAYER SCORING that I've mentioned over and over again.

What are you trying to say? You're not making sense to me.

Tell me this:

Did Jerry Stackhouse, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Tracy Mcgrady's scoring spike the years of the rule changes and stay at a much higher level than they were prior?

Fact: The perimeter player's scoring spiked when the rule changes took effect and stayed in the higher range (minus injuries, etc)

Fact: unathletic players (modern Kobe for example) have had success to this day.

You also don't seem to understand that the rule changes happened in both the 1999 and 2000 seasons. You may want to read through that link again.

You're comparing points per game, not perimeter scoring. This is about perimeter players. And every player I mentioned had scoring spikes ONLY when the rules changed and their scoring stayed high.

If that's not clear enough for you, I don't know what to say.

[Chocobanana]

But bigs don't benefit from the rule change at all. It actually makes it tougher for them. So your implication that Shaq, Duncan, KG, etc. wouldn't be as good in the 90s is wrong imo.

[bledredwine]

But bigs don't benefit from the rule change at all. It actually makes it tougher for them. So your implication that Shaq, Duncan, KG, etc. wouldn't be as good in the 90s is wrong imo.

Correct.

It is more difficult for centers/power forwards to score in the modern NBA.

So why did Shaq/TD/KG dominate in the newer era? Well, obviously they're awesome players and I'm not taking away from that.

But what you said directly disproves any talk of the newer era being more competitive. The rule changes favor perimeter players, and
A. perimeter players that were less relevant in the MJ era had scoring spikes

and

B. TD/KG dominated the new era even though they weren't considered top 10 in the MJ era. Shaq was top 10 but went on to be the best and most dominant player we've seen since MJ/Hakeem.

We can say this: Tim Duncan and KG are awesome, but they definitely didn't dominate in the MJ era.... but they are special because despite rule changes, they were still able to dominate as C/PFs. I have no doubt in my mind that if the rule changes hadn't taken place, many of the current centers would be more relevant and Duncan/KG would have had higher scoring numbers in the new era.

I'd also like to mention that no hand checking significantly helps the Centers and power forwards game, but at the same time the 3 second violation makes it impossible for them to post up and take their time. So it has a strange but overall not good effect on big men.

KG and Tim Duncan are just great talents who succeeded more in the new era, a testament that the 90s did have a ton of talent.

[MannyRam99]

wow, not used to seeing informative threads on here. Good stuff.

[Peaches191]

The 90's was easily the weakest era in NBA history especially considering the Bad Boys, Celtics and Lakers all regressed significantly due to age at the start of the decade. The talent of the league was lacking so much they had to shorten the 3 point line and worst of all, weak teams who would be #8 seeds today like the Rockets and Knicks were making the finals every year.

[reapaman]

Wait why are you grouping the 00's with the 10's?

The league started undergoing a major shift starting in 07-08 season and now its totally different than it was in the early and mid 00's. Most people will tell that the 00's as a whole were not better than the 90's (99-00 to 06-07 especially). Some of your statements are still false especially the stackhouse thing because if you look at his whole career, its not as strange as your making it sound but I can't really debate you right now because your premise is off. I mean the athletic warriors people are talking about now didn't really enter the league or really hit there strides until around 2008 so I wouldn't even know where to begin based on how you opened the debate.

Now if you wanna make debate about the 10's then I'll be glad to but right now your premise is off.

[bledredwine]

Wait why are you grouping the 00's with the 10's?

The league started undergoing a major shift starting in 07-08 season and now its totally different than it was in the early and mid 00's. Most people will tell that the 00's as a whole were not better than the 90's (99-00 to 06-07 especially). Some of your statements are still false especially the stackhouse thing because if you look at his whole career, its not as strange as your making it sound but I can't really debate you right now because your premise is off.

Now if you wanna make debate about the 10's then I'll be glad to but right now your premise is off.

uh....... what?
You're grouping 2 years into an era? Oh, so you're just talking about John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Derrick Williams, Kyrie Irving and Bismack Biyombo?

Care to share the major "shift" in 2008? Did they enforce a rule that required refs to inject players with steroids before each game?


Reality check: Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony have been playing basketball in the NBA since 2003. Kobe is still relevant and 2nd place for the scoring title at age 33! He's been playing since 1998. These guys have already had their prime. How can the 10s be anymore difficult if these guys are leading the league?

The stars of today have been playing since the 2000s. So as cute as it is to say the 2010's are the "new era", you know in your heart that the new era is not Irving/Williams/Wall etc. You're referring to Lebron, Carmelo, Kobe, Love and crew. AKA your current dream team.

[reapaman]

I said it started happening in the late 00's just like what happened in the 90s started in late 80's after the pistons changed what defenses look like.

They didn't have to force a rule, Rules are always up for interpretation. You would assume that small guards get to the line more today than they use to based on "the rules" but thats false. Westbrook and Rose are both always mentioned as benefiting from this era but they both never gotten as many free throw calls as someone like Kevin Johnson got and they are both bigger and taller than him. Today the bigger players such as dwight, love. griffin and of course lebron and Durant get the most foul calls. Also based on "the rules" you might assume that the league has gone soft and call more fouls today but thats also false. If you do the math and conpare the last 5 seasons to equvilent years 20 years ago in the 90's then you will see that Fouls called per game and free throws attempted and for that matter points overall all have decreased more than the pace.

I don't know what happened and neither do you but if you look at the way things are proportioned and the league stats as a whole, what has started to occur 5 years ago is drastically different than what was occuring during most of the 00's the same way in you started seeing a change in the late 80's. Look at the league stats, it way different. Plus while the center crop may not yet look like the 90's, I think you would agree Dwight, Bynum, Cousins, Monroe, Favors, Hibbert, M.Gasol, Mcgee, Drummond, Kanter, Val, ect ... looks a lot more promising than the crap that was in the 00's. I mean look at the 90's, besides Shaq and Duncan if you consider him a center; where were the young promsing centers? Things just happen in cycles.

But let me paint the real argument here because I was trying to incorporate the athletism thing some people are talking about and I failed to be clear (by the way durant, griffin, rose, westbrook, Love ect.. all entered the league around 2008, not 08 specifically). Also I like to mention lebron and wade even though he was a champion, start really coming into there own around as complete players around 2008 (around the time Lebron magically learned how to play defense), which is why I said hitting their strides. Kobe is still Kobe. The argument is not that athletism by its self make this era tougher, because anyone with true skill can be productive.

The argument is instead there being one guy that can do what Kevin Johnson did, you have multiple guys like rose and westbrook with that ability. Scouting has improved which dramatically changed the nba in more ways than you can imagine. Motion defenses being more allowable today. Instead of smaller guards like 6-3 Joe dumars and 6-4 Gary payton being among Jordans best defensive matchups, today it would be bigger forwards like 6-8 Lebron, 6-8 deng, 6-6 iggy, 6-10 paul george or 6-6 250 lbs rob artest and 6-8 battier back in their prime days. Instead of getting a little phamplet and a few vhs to prep for games, you litterally get a book filled with player/team tendencies, computer modules and interactive video.

You rarely hear anyone say that the greats of the 90's would suck today, they just say it would be a little tougher.

[PetroNet]

Great post.... im still shocked how people ignore the impact of the changing in the handcheck rules. back when you could handcheck, ball handers on the perimeter had to be very gaurded and protective with the ball.... often even turning their back or side to the defender, who had an armbar on them at all times to hell keep the ball handler in front of them.

with todays rules, you almost NEVER see a defender up on a ball handler like that unless its a "final shot" of a quarter situation. otherwise the defender usually is giving 3-5 feet of space above the FT or 3pt line extended.

i was watching classic games on NBA TV last week. namely the 93 playoff game between the knicks and hornets. not 1 possession where the ball crosses hafcourt and the perimeter defender doesnt have his hands all over the ball handler. today thats an instant whistle... or, more importantly, just doesnt happen in todays game.

how effective would kobe, lebron, wade, carmello, harden, and all these wing players who excel getting in the lane/to the FT line be if they didnt have that air space to operate on the perimeter? forget the bigmen in the lane/defensive 3 seconds thing. the handcheck has a much much bigger impact.

i dont think its unrealistic to think wing players would see their scoring drop 2-4 ppg and FG% drop 2-8%

take a look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMZ1lUz9rI

[Rerisen]

This should be pretty common knowledge, that the point of most recent era rule changes has been to increase scoring, free up the game more for the top superstars, with an intent to drive ratings.

Here's an article from after Kobe's 81 point game, making the point.

One reason is the changes in the NBA rules designed to increase scoring.

The changes, which went into effect last season, eliminated hand checking and opened the lane by making it illegal for any defender to be in the lane for longer than three seconds. The changes shifted the advantage to the slick ballhandlers, players who can get their own shots off the dribble and are athletic enough to make three-pointers and drive all the way to the basket. These players also are tough enough to get fouled a lot, then make their free throws.

"If you are athletic and can put the ball on the floor, the rules benefit you," Ramsay says. "It's that simple, and no one takes more advantage of that than Kobe."

Kerr says the elimination of the hand check has been a boon to scoring, especially to players such as Bryant. Since defenders aren't allowed to impede his progress with the hand check, opponents have often found themselves at his mercy this season. USAtoday

[bledredwine]

Great post.... im still shocked how people ignore the impact of the changing in the handcheck rules. back when you could handcheck, ball handers on the perimeter had to be very gaurded and protective with the ball.... often even turning their back or side to the defender, who had an armbar on them at all times to hell keep the ball handler in front of them.

with todays rules, you almost NEVER see a defender up on a ball handler like that unless its a "final shot" of a quarter situation. otherwise the defender usually is giving 3-5 feet of space above the FT or 3pt line extended.

i was watching classic games on NBA TV last week. namely the 93 playoff game between the knicks and hornets. not 1 possession where the ball crosses hafcourt and the perimeter defender doesnt have his hands all over the ball handler. today thats an instant whistle... or, more importantly, just doesnt happen in todays game.

how effective would kobe, lebron, wade, carmello, harden, and all these wing players who excel getting in the lane/to the FT line be if they didnt have that air space to operate on the perimeter? forget the bigmen in the lane/defensive 3 seconds thing. the handcheck has a much much bigger impact.

i dont think its unrealistic to think wing players would see their scoring drop 2-4 ppg and FG% drop 2-8%

take a look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMZ1lUz9rI

Really good post.

I actually think that since the average perimeter player had a 3-8 point spike in scoring, I think that many of them would have scored 5 PPG less.... with few exceptions (I think that because of Lebron's physical abilities, his scoring wouldn't decline as much, maybe 3 PPG less.... but it's all speculation).

I think that Harden wouldn't even be considered a fringe star or get anywhere near max contract consideration in the 90s. That's a really good example of a player who benefits from these rules.

Those 93 games are classics. I love watching the series of Bulls vs. Heat from 92 when MJ averaged 45 PPG. Every one of those buckets was well earned. That was him in his prime. I love the play where he crosses up 2 guards and dunks over the guys in the paint....it was like a video game.

I also noticed that players back then really took care of the ball much better. I wonder if that's a byproduct of the rule changes? Maybe they're less careful now?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVcwa99dBB4[/youtube]

at :50 The whole team was after him! People make comparisons to him, but during his prime.....he really was just on another planet than anyone else.

PS. I miss the Charlotte Hornets.

[Not Bias]

OP you do realize handchecking was still around till the 2005-06 season. In the 2001-2002 the nba also implemented zone defense. If anything guys like Kobe, Mcgrady, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, dominated in the toughest defensive era.

Since you're talking about perimeter players, let's use MJ's Wizard run as an example.
01-02: 22ppg 22fga .468 ts%
02-03: 20ppg 18.6fga .491ts%

He was awful in the early 2000's.

This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during MJ's era(1985-1998).

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the post-Lockout era (2000-2010).

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


So in MJ's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In the last 11 years, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.

1. You literally just gave me a BS list. Lebron James has done it 3 times, for the record. You cherry picked that to the point where you're including several forwards and big men on the first list, and none on the 2nd list. How can you include James Worthy but not Tim Duncan on the 2nd list, for example.... Basically, you provided a false list that you made up.

no he didn't. he said from 2000-2010 season

[PetroNet]

I also pose this question for you guys:

Why would the NBA enforce these rule changes?

What is the function/purpose of:
No hand checking?
3 second violation on both ends of the floor.....

and

Why did it happen the year after MJ retired, when the league was at an all-time low attendance?

You'll realize, if you admit it or not.... it was to make the game more flashy and to give a better chance for players to score.

Before, the big men were your rooks, and the perimeter players your pawns... now the big men are your pawns and perimeter players are your rooks.

After the rule changes, the game did become more fun to watch purely from a scoring/perimeter perspective. But not defensively. And the tick-tacky fouls are annoying,

but all of the AI/Kobe/T-Mac/Hill/Stackhouse/Carter bursts in scoring? You can thank the rules for making that show possible, and these rules indeed helped the NBA turn attendance around.

Why did big men dominate the 90s and perimeter players dominate the 00s? Are you telling me that human offspring failed to produce taller and stronger people recently? Is it all of the mcdonalds and HFCS we're eating? Wouldn't that make the newer era weaker anyway? Rule changes = your explanation.

its pretty simple... if you cant admit that it is harder to score when someone can grab, push, clutch and have a hand on you as opposed to not being bale to make contact then you either dont under stand the sport, are in denial, or are flat out trolling

[PetroNet]

If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why did the FG% go down from 45.0 (97-98) to 44.9 (99-00) to 44.3 (00-01)?
If it was easier to score after they introduced these rules -
why didn't it have an overall influence on PPG: 95.6 in 97-98, 94.8 in 00-01, 95.5 in 01-02, 95.1 in 02-03, 93.4 in 03-04 .
A "real" change - a change you can see in the stats - was strengthening the handchecking rules for the 04-05 season. With 93.4 PPG in 03-04 they literally had an alltime low in scoring and had to do something against it.

the premise wasnt that it was easier to score. the premise was that it was easier to score for PERIMETER players. and more important, easier for perimeter players to easily get space and take shots.

FGA way up on the perimeter after the rules. and you also have less talented wing players taking shots, becuase, well they can get them.

the stats show it. perimeter scoring up. wing scoring for stars up. shot attempts for wing players in general up.

i dont think you can go by overall ppg/fg% to get good data on how a subset of players(wings) increased/decreased

[bledredwine]

^^^ Yes.

Thank you.

There's a lot of trolling or just confused posters here.