Jazzfan1971 and FloppyMoose's Offseason Preview - Magic

[LofJ]

The Magic of finished with a 23-59 record last year, and traded their best starter, for a bench piece.

Out: Aaron Afflalo and Jameer Nelson
In: Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Channing Frye and Eric Fornier.

That's more young talent, but I don't see Six (6) more wins this season, out of those additions, considering the subtractions.

Frye was significantly better than Afflalo last year, and I'm not sure there's a huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour.The main improvement would be in young players already on the team getting better. As a general rule, rookies aren't good. But if they can play rotation minutes at a non-liability level then they can improve from there.

[LloydFree]

Exum has looked terrible so far. Why is it such a reach the we took a raw guy who is younger over Exum?

Payton looks better than both right now anyway. I get it if people think Gordon was a reach but Exum doesn't make it look like he'll make Orlando regret it anytime soon.

Hey, you gotta ask him. He feels it was dumb. I think the move was smart in concept, especially if it was a choice between Exum or Gordon +Payton. I'd take Gordon + Payton.

I gotcha.

I think it was either something like Exum + Payne (?) or Gordon + Payton.

I'm happy with what we did, I wasn't huge on Payton but I liked Gordon. Who knows though, Bruno could end up being the best of the 2014 class for all we know. Season needs to hurry up.

... Now on the other hand, I would have selected Marcus Smart over all of them.

... And though I agree with the concept of his draft night plan, the execution wasn't good because once he selected Gordon, it telegraphed his intentions to draft Payton. Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd.

[sonictecture]

The Magic of finished with a 23-59 record last year, and traded their best starter, for a bench piece.

Out: Aaron Afflalo and Jameer Nelson
In: Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Channing Frye and Eric Fornier.

That's more young talent, but I don't see Six (6) more wins this season, out of those additions, considering the subtractions.

Frye was significantly better than Afflalo last year, and I'm not sure there's a huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour.The main improvement would be in young players already on the team getting better. As a general rule, rookies aren't good. But if they can play rotation minutes at a non-liability level then they can improve from there.

Of all of the sarcastic comments and hyperbole statement made on realgm just this morning, this is the one that made you laugh?

[SOUL]

Hey, you gotta ask him. He feels it was dumb. I think the move was smart in concept, especially if it was a choice between Exum or Gordon +Payton. I'd take Gordon + Payton.

I gotcha.

I think it was either something like Exum + Payne (?) or Gordon + Payton.

I'm happy with what we did, I wasn't huge on Payton but I liked Gordon. Who knows though, Bruno could end up being the best of the 2014 class for all we know. Season needs to hurry up.

... Now on the other hand, I would have selected Marcus Smart over all of them.

... And though I agree with the concept of his draft night plan, the execution wasn't good because once he selected Gordon, it telegraphed his intentions to draft Payton. Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd.

None of those players or picks have played a game.

[LofJ]

Frye was significantly better than Afflalo last year, and I'm not sure there's a huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour.The main improvement would be in young players already on the team getting better. As a general rule, rookies aren't good. But if they can play rotation minutes at a non-liability level then they can improve from there.

Of all of the sarcastic comments and hyperbole statement made on realgm just this morning, this is the one that made you laugh?

Yes

[j-ragg]

Hey, you gotta ask him. He feels it was dumb. I think the move was smart in concept, especially if it was a choice between Exum or Gordon +Payton. I'd take Gordon + Payton.

I gotcha.

I think it was either something like Exum + Payne (?) or Gordon + Payton.

I'm happy with what we did, I wasn't huge on Payton but I liked Gordon. Who knows though, Bruno could end up being the best of the 2014 class for all we know. Season needs to hurry up.

... Now on the other hand, I would have selected Marcus Smart over all of them.

... And though I agree with the concept of his draft night plan, the execution wasn't good because once he selected Gordon, it telegraphed his intentions to draft Payton. Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd.

Ideally obviously we would've rather kept the two picks lol but in retrospect its a heavily protected 1st and a 2nd. I think some people still think it's our own 1st instead of giving Philly their own back. But I'm okay with it.

[sonictecture]

Of all of the sarcastic comments and hyperbole statement made on realgm just this morning, this is the one that made you laugh?

Yes

I don't think there is huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour either, especially for the Magic this season.

[SOUL]

Of all of the sarcastic comments and hyperbole statement made on realgm just this morning, this is the one that made you laugh?

Yes

I don't think there is huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour either, especially for the Magic this season.

This is all I have to say to GB posters

[jazzfan1971]

Yes

I don't think there is huge difference between Nelson and Ridnour either, especially for the Magic this season.

This is all I have to say to GB posters

I have no idea what that is meant to indicate.

[loserX]

I gotcha.

I think it was either something like Exum + Payne (?) or Gordon + Payton.

I'm happy with what we did, I wasn't huge on Payton but I liked Gordon. Who knows though, Bruno could end up being the best of the 2014 class for all we know. Season needs to hurry up.

... Now on the other hand, I would have selected Marcus Smart over all of them.

... And though I agree with the concept of his draft night plan, the execution wasn't good because once he selected Gordon, it telegraphed his intentions to draft Payton. Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd.

None of those players or picks have played a game.

And? Players and picks still have value before they play. That's why there's a draft order and teams trade up or down instead of just shouting "Scramble!" and letting GMs grab whoever's closest.

[SOUL]

... Now on the other hand, I would have selected Marcus Smart over all of them.

... And though I agree with the concept of his draft night plan, the execution wasn't good because once he selected Gordon, it telegraphed his intentions to draft Payton. Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd.

None of those players or picks have played a game.

And? Players and picks still have value before they play. That's why there's a draft order and teams trade up or down instead of just shouting "Scramble!" and letting GMs grab whoever's closest.

Tell me how "Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd" rings true when they haven't played yet.

It can certainly be worth it if they're both all-stars. Same with not being worth it if they bust. Evaluating worth this early is ridiculous when the coup from both teams has yet to play or even be drafted.

[loserX]

None of those players or picks have played a game.

And? Players and picks still have value before they play. That's why there's a draft order and teams trade up or down instead of just shouting "Scramble!" and letting GMs grab whoever's closest.

Tell me how "Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd" rings true when they haven't played yet.

It can certainly be worth it if they're both all-stars. Same with not being worth it if they bust. Evaluating worth this early is ridiculous when the coup from both teams has yet to play or even be drafted.

A young gentleman named Xavier Thames was drafted 59th overall by Toronto. He hasn't played a game yet either. Would Orlando have traded the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd for him? You should have told Toronto that, they just sold him to Brooklyn for cash.

Maybe you can still trade a bunch of future 1st rounders for him. Can't say he's not worth it, after all. Not until he plays a game...right?

[majortom71]

And? Players and picks still have value before they play. That's why there's a draft order and teams trade up or down instead of just shouting "Scramble!" and letting GMs grab whoever's closest.

Tell me how "Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd" rings true when they haven't played yet.

It can certainly be worth it if they're both all-stars. Same with not being worth it if they bust. Evaluating worth this early is ridiculous when the coup from both teams has yet to play or even be drafted.

A young gentleman named Xavier Thames was drafted 59th overall by Toronto. He hasn't played a game yet either. Would Orlando have traded the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd for him? You should have told Toronto that, they just sold him to Brooklyn for cash.

Maybe you can still trade a bunch of future 1st rounders for him. Can't say he's not worth it, after all. Not until he plays a game...right?

wow...careful there you might pull something reaching like that!

[majortom71]

I like the assessment overall.

I see them at 28-54 end record give or take a few games and not making the playoffs.

They don't have the shooting they had with Afflalo but the team being built is to play hard nose D and switch to a fast-break offense with speedy athletic players.

They did pick up Frye for spacing so the lanes open up. It should be a fun team to watch on paper, we have to see how it plays out.

I do want to make a few comments on A. Gordon.

1. I don't expect a lot from him his first season, he probably will not be as effective as other rookies (at least offensively)
2. He is 18 (turns 19 in a couple weeks) and the youngest drafted. He will probably need a few seasons to mature his game to an effective level.
3. A lot of people bring up his shooting and offensive game in general. His outside shooting needs improvement but from what I have read is many of the rookies have issues with their shooting as well. We expect all of these rookies to improve in this area and I think same goes for Gordon.
4. I did a quick aggregate of the 2014 mock draft using different sites/analysts and many had Gordon anywhere from 4-8. A lot of the mock drafts had him at 5, so he is really not that much of a reach going 4th as people say his. People (including myself) thought Magic would grab either Exum or Vonleh, but Gordon is really not much of a reach with that company.
5. Bringing up his offense (shooting) as to show it was a bad pick is not really that smart. Remember the scouts already knew this about him, yet he was a lottery pick middle of the pack 4th-8th as I mentioned. Why is that? The guy is known as a very good defender and a hustle type player with high IQ. A lot of the scout reports mentioned these traits which are pretty darn good imo.

I do think Gordon was selected by Magic because they did have 2 lotto picks and they felt they could get Payton. I am not sure he would have been picked 4th if Magic had 1 pick only, perhaps they would have gone with Exum or maybe even Smart (Magic GM is building around defense oriented players).

Personally I think Orlando should give Gordon a 2-3 year honeymoon in terms of development before they evaluate whether he is a long term player or trade bait.

[majortom71]

posted incorrectly

[loserX]

Tell me how "Those 2 weren't worth the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd" rings true when they haven't played yet.

It can certainly be worth it if they're both all-stars. Same with not being worth it if they bust. Evaluating worth this early is ridiculous when the coup from both teams has yet to play or even be drafted.

A young gentleman named Xavier Thames was drafted 59th overall by Toronto. He hasn't played a game yet either. Would Orlando have traded the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd for him? You should have told Toronto that, they just sold him to Brooklyn for cash.

Maybe you can still trade a bunch of future 1st rounders for him. Can't say he's not worth it, after all. Not until he plays a game...right?

wow...careful there you might pull something reaching like that!

There's no reach. The principle is exactly the same: you can either make an assessment of the value of a player before he plays a game, or you can't. Every draft-day trade in the history of the league proves people can.

[majortom71]

A young gentleman named Xavier Thames was drafted 59th overall by Toronto. He hasn't played a game yet either. Would Orlando have traded the #4, #12, protected '17 1st and '15 2nd for him? You should have told Toronto that, they just sold him to Brooklyn for cash.

Maybe you can still trade a bunch of future 1st rounders for him. Can't say he's not worth it, after all. Not until he plays a game...right?

wow...careful there you might pull something reaching like that!

There's no reach. The principle is exactly the same: you can either make an assessment of the value of a player before he plays a game, or you can't. Every draft-day trade in the history of the league proves people can.

The assessments can be made before playing, who's to say we know enough based on scouting reports that the trade made was worth it?
The fact is at the end of the day the Magic GM saw this trade worth it. He's the guy that has the most information on the player he deals for, more so than any of the analysts out there.
Who won the deal? well that's to be told once these players play and there is raw data to even make a weight comparison.
Philly fans think they got the best of it, but they also felt that way during the Bynum deal but we saw what happened there.
Time will only tell on these trades.

[loserX]

wow...careful there you might pull something reaching like that!

There's no reach. The principle is exactly the same: you can either make an assessment of the value of a player before he plays a game, or you can't. Every draft-day trade in the history of the league proves people can.

The assessments can be made before playing, who's to say we know enough based on scouting reports that the trade made was worth it?
The fact is at the end of the day the Magic GM saw this trade worth it. He's the guy that has the most information on the player he deals for, more so than any of the analysts out there.
Who won the deal? well that's to be told once these players play and there is raw data to even make a weight comparison.
Philly fans think they got the best of it, but they also felt that way during the Bynum deal but we saw what happened there.
Time will only tell on these trades.

These players and picks have a perceived value before the trade. You're 100% right that we might re-assess years later, but that doesn't mean that they don't still have that perceived value at the time the trade is made. Nobody is going to trade three first rounders for three second rounders and say "well we'll see years later if that was a bad trade or not". That's all I'm getting at.

You can say "your assessment will turn out to be wrong", which is just as much a guess as the other person's, but you can't say "any assessment is impossible"

[RasheedTupac]

Did you live in Sunnyvale trailer park?