Using analytics to grade the WC PGs

[James72]

Eh raw numbers in combination with stats that aren't just arbitrary and given a numeric value based on what the creator feels it is worth. I was saying that Hollinger can't even explain his formulas and he is the creator of PER and the Power rankings. This year according to PER, Davis is having an all time great season only topped by MJ, LeBron and Wilt. We can all agree that Davis is a tremendously talented player but is it really a season that can be compared to LeBrons best?


Me personally I like, efg%, TS%, TRB%, BLK% as far as advanced statistics go among other.

Win shares is totally dependent on how good the team is, like did you know Carlos Boozer finished around top five ahead of players like Noah and Deng a couple of years ago?

You didn't show how PER is a power ranking system. i see no relation what so ever. PER is imperfect, but is on way to look at a players performance. Everyone scores points, shoots a FG%, rebounds etc. so while its not even that good, everyone is subject to the same exact scale/formula and gives insight. Also, this post isn't JUST about PER, but PER and numerous other analytics.

The post said it included TS%. RB% and BLK% is irrelevant for the PG position which is what the entirety of this post is about.

How are Win Shares, RPM, Win % and WARP worthless?

I didn't say PER is a power rankings system I said that PER is created by the same gentlemen that created the power rankings. Another significant relvancy between them is that Hollinger can't explain any of them. If he can't explain why PER is a good measure of players level of play or whatever it measure how do you expect me to do it? Only thing positive about it is that it is solely calculated on your play, not how good your teammates are.

Win shares (including DWS and OWS)? solely for the reason that it is heavily dependent on having good teammates/team around you, as I mentioned above Carlos Booze actually finished around the top ten or five one year. And on that note James Harden is ranked second this year. I am not blind I see that Harden has made a great effort of becoming a better defender and it has paid of, but second in the league? come on.

RPM / Do you even know what that measures? it is still heavily dependent on having great teammates around you as are all the other.

PER is explained various times on ESPN and even other major websites... The formula can be found pretty easily by googling PER formula.

Win shares is 90% independently calculated on the players performance. 10% of it comes in when you subtract the players performance statistically from the teams totals in whatever category you're looking at it..to show how much he contributed. Not a team stat. And as i said at the top, the win shares was both offensive and defensive.

You keep saying boozer versus Noah etc... Boozer was flat out better than Noah a few years ago, so i don't see how that is a good argument.

Real plus/minus is a more accurate analysis of an individual's performance instead of the typical, horrible statistic of +/-, so yes, i know very well what it is.

I still haven't heard of something statistically better to measure a players overall ranking at the PG position.

[franktony]

Parker has been hurt most of the season !

[kodo]

Thoughts? Is this a valid way of ranking?

IMO...It's just creating a lot of noise, and some of the advanced stats are a little redundant. RPM and WAR usually give very similar results.

Taking 6 very good wines and mixing them altogether doesn't give you a perfect wine. It probably gives you a worse one.

[kodo]

Thoughts? Is this a valid way of ranking?

IMO...It's just creating a lot of noise, and some of the advanced stats are a little redundant. RPM and WAR usually give very similar results.

With any stat, you have to be able to ask "what is this stat measuring" and get a clear & precise answer. That's impossible with what's being done here.

Taking 6 very good wines and mixing them altogether doesn't give you a perfect wine. It probably gives you a worse one.

[baki]

I agree, these stats only help players more when they're in a nice, comfortable playing situation.

At the end of the day, if the point guard actually helps his team play better then that's a trademark of a great player.

[og15]

I don't really understand why Chris Paul has received so much flak this year. It's not like the Clippers have a bad record or anything. The West is tough, there's no shame being where they are. People thinking they were going to be a top 3 seed are so far (and likely for the season) wrong. That doesn't mean someone has to be blamed. I've seen a lot of talk about CP3 being terrible this season and not even considered in lots of people's top 5.

Point is, CP3 has been playing a bit below his standards and the team isn't doing as well as people expected, but he's still pretty great. Even if he is one of the most unlikable players in the league.

Team has been very inconsistent, bench suckiness has a lot to do with it as they constantly lose leads, but Doc Rivers is also the one that insists on going with full bench lineups with a team whose bench 5 man unit isn't good as opposed to using staggered lineups, soo..

Technically Cłippers are about the same record wise as they were at this point last season, and a little win streak away from being like the second seed, but for Cłipper fans, the same roster weaknesses around the star / core players are stil present, and some even excercabated, and that is disappointing even if the team pulls it together and gets a top 3 seed, the team still has a lot of matchup issues in a playoff series and might struggle defending other for a series, and the personnel moves that the front office is making don't seem to be addressing this reality.

[PDX MM]

Worthless stats.

Or let me correct myself.

Worthless arbitrary "stats". Especially PER, the creator of it can't even explain it, just like power rankings.

I agree. This just shows that just looking at the data doesn't tell the whole story or properly rank players.

[LamronOdonell]

PER is explained various times on ESPN and even other major websites... The formula can be found pretty easily by googling PER formula

The formula, yes but what makes PER a good measurement of how well a player has performed. All I see is numbers with arbitrary values set to them. For instance a made three pointer is worth 2.65 and a miss is worth 1.65, how did he come to that conclusion? Any link you have to offer that explains why it is a good way to measure how well a player has played.

Win shares is 90% independently calculated on the players performance. 10% of it comes in when you subtract the players performance statistically from the teams totals in whatever category you're looking at it..to show how much he contributed. Not a team stat. And as i said at the top, the win shares was both offensive and defensive.

Win shares is just the sum from adding a players DWS and OWS. For instance Davis this year has managed to gather 7 OWS and 3 DWS which means his WS is at 10.

And no, win shares is by no stretch of the imagination 90 % individual, I haven't fully looked into it but at first glance at the formula DWS is more a team stat. When it comes to OWS you may be correct.

You keep saying boozer versus Noah etc... Boozer was flat out better than Noah a few years ago, so i don't see how that is a good argument.

I don't "keep saying" Boozer vs Noah, I have mentioned that once. He may have been better but he has always been a negative defender, so if it is 90 % individual how could he have finished top ten?

Real plus/minus is a more accurate analysis of an individual's performance instead of the typical, horrible statistic of +/-, so yes, i know very well what it is.

According to defensive real player minus James Harden is one of the worst defenders in the league, according to DWS he is the second best. So which one is the best for measuring a players defensive capabilities?

I still haven't heard of something statistically better to measure a players overall ranking at the PG position.

How about ast/to ratio, ast%, turnover% among other stats. No need to compliment the stats.