Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#21 » by Trader_Joe » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:27 pm

BNelley24 wrote:The 76ers were a solid team with Jrue Holiday - Iggy - Turner - Thad Young, yeah, could we make the playoffs, and maybe win a round? Sure, who gives a flying fk, that is not the point of building a team. The point is to build a finals contending team. I don't care if this 76ers rebuild takes 5+ years, which in undoubtedly will, because if it works out we will see progress during those 5 years. Okafor could end up winning ROY, we could get a possible franchise player in the 2016 draft.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. If I was given the ability to be the GM of any team in the league right now, the 76ers, Bucks, T'Wolves would be in my top 10 choices because of their potential down the line here.

Now what if you could be the owner of any NBA team?

Would you chose to be the owner of a team with dwindling attendance that is losing money and potentially risks sale/relocation/further fan base alienation as a result, or one that puts out a profitable, or at least sustainable product, not in jeopardy of having to sell their team or relocate to another market?

I'm not saying Philly is in that predicament necessarily, but there are real world concerns that are easy to ignore as armchair GMs and hard core fans willing to stick with the team through anything.

People knock on Charlotte for making treadmill moves, but they've lost their team once before because of a lack of fan support. If I'm a fan of them, I'm assuming most would rather not see them have to sell or relocate to another market... nor would their FO and ownership.

Also, while Philly is taking a major risk that is unprecedented and perhaps going to be revolutionary let's not pretend there cannot be repercussions.

Already there is hearsay (and I'm not going debate the validate of these claims) that
a. They ticked off AK and his agent buy not releasing him immediately
b. They gobbled up T.Robinson who wanted to go to the Nets (he did not resign with Philly nor did he up his value as many claimed he would..it could have been construed as simply financially motivated..see c.)
c. The players union is/was investigating how they handled hitting the salary floor with T.Rob
d. they treat their players like assets and don't show loyalty to them (MCW)
e. they did not disclose Holidays' medical history to NO and were forced to compensate NO

Between those issues, the intentional tanking with no clear end, it could be said that players and agents could be weary to sign there anytime soon and GM's may be weary to make deals with them. They potentially are going to have to be even more diligent and successful (lucky perhaps) with their draft picks.

Of course, if they do hit the jackpot with their draft picks and turn into the sustained contender their FO envisioned, they will be lauded for taking such a risky approach... but who knows how this all turns out and when is a fair time to judge them on it. I have to imagine at some point ownership has to be concerned about attendance and finances. Whether that happens before Hinkie's plan is orchestrated, I don't claim to know.

Regardless, I'm glad most of the fans here are happy with Hinkie's plan. I don't live in Philly or know many Philly fans so I don't get much of a perspective outside of here. I will say though, I do find it surprising that I almost never see any Philly fans critique any measure of their team and this approach, especially relative to most other teams on here that seem to be much more willing to criticize their teams/GM (perhaps I'm jaded being part of perhaps the most self-critical fan base out there). I applaud the solidarity and will assume it is deserved and objective...just surprising. Usually there is some dissension within a fan-base, but like I said I never see that on the GB or Trade board.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#22 » by Slava » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:34 pm

mksp wrote:It's such a weird article.

The Suns are impatient and now a treadmill team.

The Sixers on the other hand.....well, they suck too, so I don't really know.

But other execs don't like the way Hinkie is operating, so....take that Philly!


That's not what the article says and quite honestly your victim complex in every thread is a bit overplayed by this point.

The article explicitly mentions the contrast in ownership styles. Robert Sarver wants a playoff team because he is operating at a loss if he fields lottery teams so he is pushing the Suns to be aggressive. Josh Harris on the other hand is more laid back and willing to be bad because the team is still making a profit.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#23 » by JDizzel3000 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:44 pm

Yup ...good read ....just like I've been saying for the past year ...everyone praised the Suns for "almost getting there" a few seasons ago and now ..a blown draft pick (lakers pick) and two strike outs in a Free Agency later as well as salary dumping young talent ..it has become clear that their team is going no where fast ....


Give Me


OK4
Saric
Noel
5 First round picks (two of which will be top 5)


Over whatever hell PHX thinks their doing ....looks to me that team is on the path of treadmillville
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#24 » by deep6er » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Trader_Joe wrote:
BNelley24 wrote:The 76ers were a solid team with Jrue Holiday - Iggy - Turner - Thad Young, yeah, could we make the playoffs, and maybe win a round? Sure, who gives a flying fk, that is not the point of building a team. The point is to build a finals contending team. I don't care if this 76ers rebuild takes 5+ years, which in undoubtedly will, because if it works out we will see progress during those 5 years. Okafor could end up winning ROY, we could get a possible franchise player in the 2016 draft.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. If I was given the ability to be the GM of any team in the league right now, the 76ers, Bucks, T'Wolves would be in my top 10 choices because of their potential down the line here.

Now what if you could be the owner of any NBA team?

Would you chose to be the owner of a team with dwindling attendance that is losing money and potentially risks sale/relocation as a result, or one that puts out a profitable, or at least sustainable product, not in jeopardy of having to sell their team or relocate to another market?

I'm not saying Philly is in that predicament necessarily, but there are real world concerns that are easy to ignore as armchair GMs and hard core fans willing to stick with the team through anything.

People knock on Charlotte for making treadmill moves, but they've lost their team once before because of a lack of fan support. If I'm a fan of them, I'm assuming most would rather not see them have to sell or relocate to another market... nor would their FO and ownership.

Also, while Philly is taking a major risk that is unprecedented and perhaps going to be revolutionary let's not pretend there cannot be repercussions.

Already there is hearsay (and I'm not going debate the validate of these claims) that
a. They ticked off AK and his agent buy not releasing him immediately
b. They gobbled up T.Robinson who wanted to go to the Nets (he did not resign with Philly nor did he up his value as many claimed he would..it could have been construed as simply financially motivated..see c.)
c. The players union is/was investigating how they handled hitting the salary floor with T.Rob
d. they treat their players like assets and don't show loyalty to them (MCW)
e. they did not disclose Holidays' medical history to NO and were forced to compensate NO

Between those issues, the intentional tanking with no clear end, it could be said that players and agents could be weary to sign there anytime soon and GM's may be weary to make deals with them. They potentially are going to have to be even more diligent and successful (lucky perhaps) with their draft picks.

Of course, if they do hit the jackpot with their draft picks and turn into the sustained contender their FO envisioned, they will be lauded for taking such a risky approach... but who knows how this all turns out and when is a fair time to judge them on it. I have to imagine at some point ownership has to be concerned about attendance and finances. Whether that happens before Hinkie's plan is orchestrated, I don't claim to know.

Regardless, I'm glad most of the fans here are happy with Hinkie's plan. I don't live in Philly or know many Philly fans so I don't get much of a perspective outside of here. I will say though, I do find it surprising that I almost never see any Philly fans critique any measure of their team and this approach, especially relative to most other teams on here that seem to be much more willing to criticize their teams/GM (perhaps I'm jaded being part of perhaps the most self-critical fan base out there). I applaud the solidarity and will assume it is deserved and objective...just surprising. Usually there is some dissension within a fan-base, but like I said I never see that on the GB or Trade board.


There's a bunker mentality for Sixers fans on the general board. We know everyone else is coming after us, so we circle the wagons and close ranks. If you go to the Sixers board, there is plenty of disagreement about decisions that have been made, although the general consensus is that Hinkie is making good moves.

I don't have any worries about the players union or agents or GMs being annoyed with the team. As soon as Philly starts looking like a good place to play, players will want to go there and as soon as agents feel like they can make themselves money signing players to Sixers, all we be forgiven. And for all the talk that GMs don't want to deal with Hinkie, Hinkie keeps making deals.

The T-Rob and AK situations are just silly. You simply can't decide on what team you want to play for before you clear waivers and even though T-Rob didn't up his value, it's not because he didn't get a chance to showcase himself, it's because he further showed how little value he has in this league.

The risk the Sixers are taking is not as big as you might think. Like the article said, they're making money. They're not the Bucks where they have to worry about the team moving.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#25 » by Sixersftw » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:56 pm

Trader_Joe wrote:Now what if you could be the owner of any NBA team?

Would you chose to be the owner of a team with dwindling attendance that is losing money and potentially risks sale/relocation as a result, or one that puts out a profitable, or at least sustainable product, not in jeopardy of having to sell their team or relocate to another market?

I'm not saying Philly is in that predicament necessarily, but there are real world concerns that are easy to ignore as armchair GMs and hard core fans willing to stick with the team through anything.

People knock on Charlotte for making treadmill moves, but they've lost their team once before because of a lack of fan support. If I'm a fan of them, I'm assuming most would rather not see them have to sell or relocate to another market... nor would their FO and ownership.

Also, while Philly is taking a major risk that is unprecedented and perhaps going to be revolutionary let's not pretend there cannot be repercussions.

......


Regardless, I'm glad most of the fans here are happy with Hinkie's plan. I don't live in Philly or know many Philly fans so I don't get much of a perspective outside of here. I will say though, I do find it surprising that I almost never see any Philly fans critique any measure of their team and this approach, especially relative to most other teams on here that seem to be much more willing to criticize their teams/GM (perhaps I'm jaded being part of perhaps the most self-critical fan base out there). I applaud the solidarity and will assume it is deserved and objective...just surprising. Usually there is some dissension within a fan-base, but like I said I never see that on the GB or Trade board.


It's unfair to ask a Sixers fan would he like to be the Gm of a team that is losing money and risks relocation because the Sixers aren't in that situation. The team is profitable. I think the same article says that the valuation of the team has tripled since Harris bought the team (without owning their building and locked into a turd of a TV deal). we can't really empathize with a team like Charlotte (using your example I don't truly know their situation) where their team can realistically get moved. We are a profitable, historically significant, team in a major market. Our motivations should be beyond "survival" given our market. Our radically approach wouldn't be for everyone but it is good for us. Hell, if Hinkie was hired on his first interview prior to the Bynum trade we wouldn't be tanking. He told Harris that set the franchise back years.

We've lived through the treadmill and it was hell. People act like the Sixers waste seasons now but we have garnered assets and talent (Noel, Roco, Jah, 90% of Embiids body lol) to show for it. Back then we were just watching season go by with no hope, no asset accumulation, no chance at a title no nothing. So, we aren't mesmerized drones w/ Hinkie because you better believe that the natives turned on Billy King and Ed Stefanski real quick. It's just Hinkie has followed his plan faithfully and hasn't done a major move that isn't reasonably justifiable. There is some dissension but those are the same fans that didn't mind taking their kid to see a .500 basketball team year in and year out, imo.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#26 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:15 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:as well as salary dumping young talent


Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris? :lol:
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#27 » by 12footrim » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:27 pm

mksp wrote:It's such a weird article.

The Suns are impatient and now a treadmill team.

The Sixers on the other hand.....well, they suck too, so I don't really know.

But other execs don't like the way Hinkie is operating, so....take that Philly!


Man you've drank this koolaid Hinkie is selling
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#28 » by CoreyGallagher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:28 pm

Slava wrote:The frightening part of that article was that he's suggesting the Sixers are going to keep this going for another 4 or 5 drafts and Josh Harris is happy that he is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing. Expect that thing to be hammered to death in the next CBA negotiations.

Can you cite the excerpt that that is suggested?
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#29 » by Trader_Joe » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:30 pm

Sixersftw wrote:
Trader_Joe wrote:Now what if you could be the owner of any NBA team?

Would you chose to be the owner of a team with dwindling attendance that is losing money and potentially risks sale/relocation as a result, or one that puts out a profitable, or at least sustainable product, not in jeopardy of having to sell their team or relocate to another market?

I'm not saying Philly is in that predicament necessarily, but there are real world concerns that are easy to ignore as armchair GMs and hard core fans willing to stick with the team through anything.

People knock on Charlotte for making treadmill moves, but they've lost their team once before because of a lack of fan support. If I'm a fan of them, I'm assuming most would rather not see them have to sell or relocate to another market... nor would their FO and ownership.

Also, while Philly is taking a major risk that is unprecedented and perhaps going to be revolutionary let's not pretend there cannot be repercussions.

......


Regardless, I'm glad most of the fans here are happy with Hinkie's plan. I don't live in Philly or know many Philly fans so I don't get much of a perspective outside of here. I will say though, I do find it surprising that I almost never see any Philly fans critique any measure of their team and this approach, especially relative to most other teams on here that seem to be much more willing to criticize their teams/GM (perhaps I'm jaded being part of perhaps the most self-critical fan base out there). I applaud the solidarity and will assume it is deserved and objective...just surprising. Usually there is some dissension within a fan-base, but like I said I never see that on the GB or Trade board.


It's unfair to ask a Sixers fan would he like to be the Gm of a team that is losing money and risks relocation because the Sixers aren't in that situation. The team is profitable. I think the same article says that the valuation of the team has tripled since Harris bought the team (without owning their building and locked into a turd of a TV deal). we can't really empathize with a team like Charlotte (using your example I don't truly know their situation) where their team can realistically get moved. We are a profitable, historically significant, team in a major market. Our motivations should be beyond "survival" given our market. Our radically approach wouldn't be for everyone but it is good for us. Hell, if Hinkie was hired on his first interview prior to the Bynum trade we wouldn't be tanking. He told Harris that set the franchise back years.

We've lived through the treadmill and it was hell. People act like the Sixers waste seasons now but we have garnered assets and talent (Noel, Roco, Jah, 90% of Embiids body lol) to show for it. Back then we were just watching season go by with no hope, no asset accumulation, no chance at a title no nothing. So, we aren't mesmerized drones w/ Hinkie because you better believe that the natives turned on Billy King and Ed Stefanski real quick. It's just Hinkie has followed his plan faithfully and hasn't done a major move that isn't reasonably justifiable. There is some dissension but those are the same fans that didn't mind taking their kid to see a .500 basketball team year in and year out, imo.

My main point though is that not every team can take this risk. I did not claim to know their finances/valuations, but given their attendance (dead last) and TV ratings (2nd to last down 27% last year), I figured at least operating revenue is in the red (and as far as I can tell based upon team sales and rumors most teams' evaluation are up substantially over the last few years so that figure does not surprise me).

The poster I replied to said it needs to be all or nothing in the NBA.. as in if you're not a contender, might as well tank to become one. I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that for a majority of the team in the NBA. Some teams (I did bring up the Charlotte example because it's a fairly recent one and may explain their moves) have to worry about fielding a competitive team that keeps the fans' and sponsors' interest.

Also, the treadmill does work for some teams contention-wise. Milwaukee was a classic treadmill team and have suddenly become a possible contender in the East for years. (potentially even w/o Jabari as he wasn't a big part of their rise). Golden State didn't land many top picks rather drafted wisely with Curry, Thompson, Green. On the other hand Cleveland had how many #1 picks in recent years, and if it weren't for the best player being from the area, they looked like they were going nowhere.

Additionally, this all or nothing logic could said to be applied to teams that try to sign every star player possible, sacrifice their picks/future, try again with massive cap space in free agency swinging for the fence and fail..like NY, BK and LAL.

In other words, I just don't think there is one right way to go about managing a team and certainly not one that works for all teams. Championship or bust just seems rather simplistic.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#30 » by Edrees » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:32 pm

The suns actually had a shot to build a title contending team but they chose to trade away their assets and sign bad contracts Its not their lack of tanking that put them into this position but some bad decisions.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#31 » by Trader_Joe » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:37 pm

CoreyGallagher wrote:
Slava wrote:The frightening part of that article was that he's suggesting the Sixers are going to keep this going for another 4 or 5 drafts and Josh Harris is happy that he is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing. Expect that thing to be hammered to death in the next CBA negotiations.

Can you cite the excerpt that that is suggested?

Is there any idea of when this" strategy will end (as in win now FA signed, asset collection turned into win now pieces)?
I honestly do not know and know it's not exactly a cut and dry answer, but is there some expectation for a contender to emerge?
Is it something that could go on indefinitely if the picks don't pan out?
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#32 » by JDizzel3000 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:51 pm

Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
JDizzel3000 wrote:as well as salary dumping young talent


Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris? :lol:



Now I'm no fan of the Suns and I obviously don't have the inside info that their fans may have on their players but looking at Marcus' age his advanced stats and his small cap hit ...it seems as though you gave up something of value for absolutely nothing out of desperation ...which is generally not consistent with good decision making in NBA terms
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#33 » by Slava » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:58 pm

CoreyGallagher wrote:
Slava wrote:The frightening part of that article was that he's suggesting the Sixers are going to keep this going for another 4 or 5 drafts and Josh Harris is happy that he is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing. Expect that thing to be hammered to death in the next CBA negotiations.

Can you cite the excerpt that that is suggested?


If Philly is really willing to do this for five, six, or seven seasons, it almost cannot fail. It will either land a superstar or draft so many good players that they will gather a solid NBA team. Brett Brown may check himself into an asylum before then, but if you keep getting lottery picks, you will eventually succeed. Even when Philly was on the clock at no. 3, it was on the phone with teams in the lower half of the lottery, working to secure another high pick, according to league sources.


The team has been profitable during this extended downturn, per league documents obtained by Grantland; Philly pays no money into the league’s revenue-sharing system and receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#34 » by Stoked » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:03 pm

I see the Sixers as how not to build thru the draft.

If you want to see how to build thru the draft look at teams like the Spurs and Jazz.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#35 » by CoreyGallagher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:04 pm

Trader_Joe wrote:Is there any idea of when this" strategy will end (as in win now FA signed, asset collection turned into win now pieces)?
I honestly do not know and know it's not exactly a cut and dry answer, but is there some expectation for a contender to emerge?
Is it something that could go on indefinitely if the picks don't pan out?

It was presented as a 3-5 year plan from the get go, this upcoming season will be the third year. He'll likely be held to this timeline, however Hinkie refers to an emphasis on optionality which makes the plan itself fluid. We have assets to consolidate if opportunities were to present themselves and the immediate capacity to absorb if need be, that with prospect development should hopefully yield something within that frame.

Slava wrote:
If Philly is really willing to do this for five, six, or seven seasons, it almost cannot fail. It will either land a superstar or draft so many good players that they will gather a solid NBA team. Brett Brown may check himself into an asylum before then, but if you keep getting lottery picks, you will eventually succeed. Even when Philly was on the clock at no. 3, it was on the phone with teams in the lower half of the lottery, working to secure another high pick, according to league sources.

A hypothetical willingness.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#36 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:05 pm

CoreyGallagher wrote:
Trader_Joe wrote:Is there any idea of when this" strategy will end (as in win now FA signed, asset collection turned into win now pieces)?
I honestly do not know and know it's not exactly a cut and dry answer, but is there some expectation for a contender to emerge?
Is it something that could go on indefinitely if the picks don't pan out?

It was presented as a 3-5 year plan from the get go, this upcoming season will be the third year. He'll likely be held to this timeline, however Hinkie refers to an emphasis on optionality which makes the plan itself fluid. We have assets to consolidate if opportunities were to present themselves and the immediate capacity to absorb if need be.


This would be the 4th year not the 3rd year.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#37 » by CoreyGallagher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:08 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:This would be the 4th year not the 3rd year.

Will be the fourth offseason after this upcoming season, not year. Sam Hinkie was hired in May 2013.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#38 » by aIvin adams » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:12 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
JDizzel3000 wrote:as well as salary dumping young talent


Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris? :lol:



Now I'm no fan of the Suns and I obviously don't have the inside info that their fans may have on their players but looking at Marcus' age his advanced stats and his small cap hit ...it seems as though you gave up something of value for absolutely nothing out of desperation ...which is generally not consistent with good decision making in NBA terms


suns fans wanted the team to trade marcus bc many of us thought his presence on the roster was harmful to markieff's professionalism. markieff is the better twin with a better contract. but reasonable minds could disagree about whether that trade was good or not.

overall it was a pretty accurate article from a suns fan perspective. maybe hardcore/realgm suns fans are more likely to buy into the 'champoinship-or-bust' perspective, but the overall fanbase just wants to root for a winner. the suns used to be more popular than the arizona cardinals here despite being "on the teadmill" for the last half century.

suns fans, by definition, aren't the 'championship or bust' type. because whenever each of us became fans, we became fans of a team which, in the end, lost. :oops:
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#39 » by ciueli » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:13 pm

The big issue I have with what the Sixers are doing is that there is an unspoken gentleman's agreement that teams will generally try their best to win games each season. The Sixers aren't trying to win games, they're trying to game the system that rewards bad teams with high draft picks.

Sure, it's not terrible to tank the second half of a season because you have no hope of making the playoffs. Maybe even a whole season if a key player goes down with injury or you lose a top-tier free agent. But the Sixers are heading into season 3 of the most blatant tank job the league has ever seen with no signs of letting up. That's just egregious and at some point the draft process will probably be changed to dissuade other teams from doing something similar.

And why is it so bad? Because it creates games that fewer people want to watch or pay to attend, which is bad for business. Fans of other teams shouldn't be forced to watch their team play a glorified D-League team 4 times a year. And that's just with the Sixers tanking, wait until other teams start to do it too.

BTW, here's a list of the playoff teams the Sixers beat last season:

Cavs without LeBron or Kyrie, pre-NYK trade
Nets
Pelicans without Anthony Davis
Wizards without Pierce or Beal
Hawks without Carroll, Millsap or Korver

and the first 2 wins came due to important contributions from Michael Carter-Williams who is no longer with the team. It's really a joke at this point.
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Re: Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions 

Post#40 » by Slava » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:14 pm

aIvin adams wrote:
JDizzel3000 wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris? :lol:



Now I'm no fan of the Suns and I obviously don't have the inside info that their fans may have on their players but looking at Marcus' age his advanced stats and his small cap hit ...it seems as though you gave up something of value for absolutely nothing out of desperation ...which is generally not consistent with good decision making in NBA terms


suns fans wanted the team to trade marcus bc many of us thought his presence on the roster was harmful to markieff's professionalism. markieff is the better twin with a better contract. but reasonable minds could disagree about whether that trade was good or not.

overall it was a pretty accurate article from a suns fan perspective. maybe hardcore/realgm suns fans are more likely to buy into the 'champoinship-or-bust' perspective, but the overall fanbase just wants to root for a winner. the suns used to be more popular than the arizona cardinals here despite being "on the teadmill" for the last half century.

suns fans, by definition, aren't the 'championship or bust' type. because whenever each of us became fans, we became fans of a team which, in the end, lost. :oops:


Gotta thank Nash for that. Even if you consider it a treadmill, that team was a joy to watch. If the rivalry with my Lakers wasn't so rabid, I'd probably have enjoyed those Suns teams a lot more than I did.
:king: + :angry: = :wizard:

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