Big men and the 3pt shot...

[GimmeDat]

Definitely depends on the players overall skill-set, whether they're 'settling' for J's if they have the ability to get a better shot, what type of player is complimenting them, etc., but overall, the threat to hit the outside shot really opens up the game, which I enjoy.

Personally, I just like an interior/exterior compliment in the front-court. Porzingis/Lopez, Dirk/Chandler, Whiteside/Bosh, Bogut/Barnes, Adams/Ibaka, etc. you get the drill. Now when players can play outside without living there, guys with athletic bases and a varied skill-set, that's when a bit more variety can come in to the fold.. KAT for instance has the complete package on both ends, and you could play almost anyone with him in time.

A lot of 5's are starting to become shooters as well, and I find that a bit more concerning. You can't go wrong with a mid-range shot, but it's a lot harder to compliment that with the right PF.

One things for sure, in this league, you need at least one imposing interior big and one legitimate outside PF or small ball option to succeed. The post-game might be minimized but the hustle and board game never will.

[naabzor]

I I do not like idea of bigs shooting 3s. It kills offensive rebounding putting a lot of pressure on you D in transition. Problem is, the league is full of limited 7fters on the offensive end like Adams, Valanciunas, Bogut, Mozgov, Sullinger, Pachulia that can not do any damage on the offensive so those bigs who can shoot can get away with it cause they barely work on the defensive end.

What?

[76ciology]

Part of the game's evolution of becoming "position less" where players trend to becoming more like wings.

Eventually, when all bigs will be able to be better or respectable shooters, teams would eventually not just rely on a defensive anchor C.

[NEM]

I don't see why a players interior DEFENSE would be affected by a role change on OFFENSE... That two aren't related at all. I could see how that players offensive rebound and shooting percentages would be affected, but that's about it. It's not as if boogie, serge, AD, etc. camp out/cherry pick at the 3 point line while their team is playing 4 on 5 without them on the other end...

[Statlanta]

Over the past few seasons, we've seen a few interior based big men attempt to transition to a more perimeter based game that favors shooting more 3 point shots.

So what are people's opinion on this? Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game? None of the guys I mentioned saw a massive jump in scoring and all of them saw decreases in PER and true shooting percentage. Or is the game so dependent on spacing, that a 3pt shot is required for all offensive players in today's game?

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

I'd be interested to hear the argument people who are for these guys attempting more 3pt shots, if they even exist.

It' depends on the player. I hate it that Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, and DeMarcus Cousins are shooting 3's when fans see how under-utilized and sometimes under-developed their post games are. I think the 3pt shot is the final weapon for a big man and not a need in my eyes unless you are a role player who needs to justify his place in the league with a bad skillset. It's simply aesthetics/bias for me because I like seeing Dirk/Love light it up but not guys like Davis or Cousins shooting it at the bad to mediocre percentages especially when counted on as the primary rebounder.

[MaceCase]

Well, I think some guys who have the ability to score inside on a consistent basis, suffer a bit if they start shooting threes instead of getting inside for high percentage looks. Al Horford is probably the best example - he started shooting threes on a pretty high volume for a bigman - over 3 attempts per game, but he shot a slightly below average percentage - 34.4% - which isn't horrible by any means, but it's not particularly good, either, and he's a guy who can score inside, has that fundamentally sound post game, and he's a good passer (I've always considered him a poor man's Duncan), so IMO he would've benefitted more from trying to score from the post. He's never been good at drawing fouls (career-high is 3.3 FTAs per game for a season, really bad for an all-star bigman), but last season, he averaged a career-low 1.6, even though he's still in his prime.

Personally, I'm more old school - I like to see bigs (especially guys like Horford who are actually skilled and have good size) playing inside, if they are not natural floor spacers like Dirk, Love, Channing Frye etc., which Horford is not. If you are not a 40% three-point shooter (or at least 37-38%) as a bigman, I think you could probably make a bigger impact inside. Josh Smith chucking 3 or 4 threes per game at below 30% was a real nightmare, and he was doing that even when he was a good player, basically reduced his own value with those boneheaded shots.

I think you used absolutely the worst example in Horford. Horford has always been a mediocre post player with a severely limited repertoire leaving him with no consistent means of producing much post offense on his own. He is however an elite jump shooter particularly from 20 feet which has forever been his bread and butter in the league. It was a natural progression for him to take the two steps backwards and add the 3 ball to his game given that if he's already hitting long 2s at ~50% then he should be able to manage to hit 23 footers at ~35%. He is not at all dissimilar in skill set from a Serge Ibaka rather than a Tim Duncan so I'm not at all sure how you are trying to frame it as though he just began shooting jumpers last season, he's always been a "natural floor spacer".

For big men whose primary offensive skill is taking jumpers then they need to be able to refine that skill and expand it to everywhere on the court to serve as a better function of their team's offense by opening up more space for those that can create for themselves and others. For big men that are focal points of their team's offense such as Davis or Cousins then yes, it needs to be a reliable tool but not one that is relied on. From an individual standpoint both Davis and Cousins have great faceup games and can handle the ball well, the ability to draw out rim protectors to an area of the court they aren't comfortable defending only serves as an advantage. The issue usually arises when they decide to settle on their jumpers rather than using it to open up more efficient areas of their game.

[boomershadow]

There are some examples used in this thread that might not be the best representation of the point, but I definitely do think that parking a power forward in a spot beyond the 3 point line to wait for a kickout does reduce other facets of the game that are indeed important.

[Torgeir Bryn]

Guess it might depend on a lot of factors, but as a center, you can have 4 other guys that space the floor that are more natural fits for perimeter games than 7ft players.

One of Cousins problems have been that the Kings often start games with him as the second best 3pt shooter. I would prefer him to only take trailing 3s and otherwise get his ass down in the paint, but it's pretty crowded there and he has always shot a lot of long 2s. It's normally more efficient to just take a step or two back for the extra point.

That Cousins was the 3pt shooter that Rondo assisted most last season is troubling. Having great shooters around him should be a high priority with such a dominant post player.

[justicewinslow]

How does shooting 3s give up blocks?

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[UcanUwill]

If you shoot a lot of 3s, you better have good percentage,I dont care if you are a bigman or a guard really.
Or be it a very small part of your game. On occasion, bigman can keep defense honest by attempting a 3, I have no problem with that.

Personally hate how Donatas Motiejunas is in love with 3 ball and all he does is float around the 3 point line, and shoot those low percentage 3s. It is more infuriating than a poor shooting guard, because you just know guy like D-Mo can be much more effective in the paint. These type of players drive me crazy. Pero Antic is another example. Yeah, if you shot 37-40% I would have no problem, but these guys chuck low 30s.

Expect Nikola Vucevic to join the club soon, he is averaging two 3PT attempts in Eurobasket qualifiers so far. Like his foul drawing rate wasnt bad already...

[Side beard]

If you shoot a lot of 3s, you better have good percentage,I dont care if you are a bigman or a guard really.
Or be it a very small part of your game. On occasion, bigman can keep defense honest by attempting a 3, I have no problem with that.

Personally hate how Donatas Motiejunas is in love with 3 ball and all he does is float around the 3 point line, and shoot those low percentage 3s. It is more infuriating than a poor shooting guard, because you just know guy like D-Mo can be much more effective in the paint. These type of players drive me crazy. Pero Antic is another example. Yeah, if you shot 37-40% I would have no problem, but these guys chuck low 30s.

Expect Nikola Vucevic to join the club soon, he is averaging two 3PT attempts in Eurobasket qualifiers so far. Like his foul drawing rate wasnt bad already...

It probably has to do with Morey and his love with numbers.

[UcanUwill]

If you shoot a lot of 3s, you better have good percentage,I dont care if you are a bigman or a guard really.
Or be it a very small part of your game. On occasion, bigman can keep defense honest by attempting a 3, I have no problem with that.

Personally hate how Donatas Motiejunas is in love with 3 ball and all he does is float around the 3 point line, and shoot those low percentage 3s. It is more infuriating than a poor shooting guard, because you just know guy like D-Mo can be much more effective in the paint. These type of players drive me crazy. Pero Antic is another example. Yeah, if you shot 37-40% I would have no problem, but these guys chuck low 30s.

Expect Nikola Vucevic to join the club soon, he is averaging two 3PT attempts in Eurobasket qualifiers so far. Like his foul drawing rate wasnt bad already...

It probably has to do with Morey and his love with numbers.

Nah, he was a bigtime low percentage chucker before he entered the league. Especially turned into one under coach Tomas Pačėsas, coach who was his biggest fanboy at the same time and let him take any shot.

[DaGawd]

Porzingis blocked plenty of shots in spite of shooting the 3 regularly

[RCM88x]

Porzingis blocked plenty of shots in spite of shooting the 3 regularly

I'm kind of looking more at guys who have their games adjusted while they are in the league to shoot more 3s, DMC, Ibaka etc... Zingis is one of the guys who belongs in a stretch 4 role, he's built for that. Kind of like a better Channing Frye or the obvious Dirk comparison.

Horford is probably the only guy who didn't experience much of a overall performance drop off, but he shot nearly 40% from 3pt range and was never much of a rebounded/rim protector to begin with, so there isn't a massive loss in production like we see in AD or Ibaka.

[King of Canada]

Part of this conversation is also the flip side where there is conversation in the NBA about how offensive rebounding isn't as important as it was once considered. Two sides to the same coin.

[davidfr94]

Bigs that have a really good low post game (like cousins, valanciunas, gasols, randolph, Kat) should use the three point shot as a complementary weapon and try to make the opposing team think "man this guy is unguardable".
Maybe incorporate one or two plays but not totally change their game to make them shoot 5 threes per game. Play your game, let the game come to you and if once in a while you find yourself alone at the 3pt line (and you are actually good at it) take the three. What i hate about this thing is that it seems to have an impact on their mindset. It is as if they are becoming lazy to battle inside the paint and therefore settle for the jumper.

On the contrary, if you are a jump shooting big man and your offensive game is primarly built on pick and pop and long twos, you should focus on improving your three point shot. Guys like ibaka, speights, sullinger, humphries, booker, have done it because they understood that it could make them more valuable to their team. Other should work on it like darell Arthur, Brandon bass, lauvergne, thadeus Young, maybe even guys like aldridge and favors (not sure about these last two though).

It is another story if these players are changing their game to extend their carreer.

[tsherkin]

Part of this conversation is also the flip side where there is conversation in the NBA about how offensive rebounding isn't as important as it was once considered. Two sides to the same coin.

This isn't correct. Offensive rebounding isn't less important, it's less emphasized. Oklahoma has had an offensive rebounding rate very similar to early 90s teams for a while now, and it hasn't hurt them at either end. Teams have just been prioritizing transition defense a lot more in the more recent years and that's been a theme for most teams, since most teams are just copy cats. It's very much a viable tactic still to crash the offensive boards and generate secondary chances and possession extension, especially if you're only throwing your two bigs at the boards and letting your backcourt protect against a rush the other way.

[76ciology]

Part of this conversation is also the flip side where there is conversation in the NBA about how offensive rebounding isn't as important as it was once considered. Two sides to the same coin.

This isn't correct. Offensive rebounding isn't less important, it's less emphasized. Oklahoma has had an offensive rebounding rate very similar to early 90s teams for a while now, and it hasn't hurt them at either end. Teams have just been prioritizing transition defense a lot more in the more recent years and that's been a theme for most teams, since most teams are just copy cats. It's very much a viable tactic still to crash the offensive boards and generate secondary chances and possession extension, especially if you're only throwing your two bigs at the boards and letting your backcourt protect against a rush the other way.

Agree and I notice teams are trying to take advantage of offensive rebounds (such as OKC & CAVS) against very good small ball teams.

[King of Canada]

Part of this conversation is also the flip side where there is conversation in the NBA about how offensive rebounding isn't as important as it was once considered. Two sides to the same coin.

This isn't correct. Offensive rebounding isn't less important, it's less emphasized. Oklahoma has had an offensive rebounding rate very similar to early 90s teams for a while now, and it hasn't hurt them at either end. Teams have just been prioritizing transition defense a lot more in the more recent years and that's been a theme for most teams, since most teams are just copy cats. It's very much a viable tactic still to crash the offensive boards and generate secondary chances and possession extension, especially if you're only throwing your two bigs at the boards and letting your backcourt protect against a rush the other way.

I guess I wasn't clear. The strategy of not chasing rebounds to get back on D, paired with bigs not crashing is what I'm talking about too. We're on the same page. I have a habit of not making detailed enough responses.

[HurricaneKid]

There are some examples used in this thread that might not be the best representation of the point, but I definitely do think that parking a power forward in a spot beyond the 3 point line to wait for a kickout does reduce other facets of the game that are indeed important.

I think the analytics are demonstrating that the reduction of post play and mid range shots are a GOAL to be achieved, rather than a facet of the game that is being reduced. Which is kind of the point in teams shooting more and more 3s, fewer and fewer mid range shots, etc. The goal is to create an offense as efficient as possible and this is the way those offenses are doing that. Incorporating shooting at as many positions as possible helps IMMENSELY as that defender cannot help, or at the very least can't help as much. If you want to know what the biggest change in the game from last year to 10 years from know its simple: everyone will be a better shooter in the future. Its just too important to have that threat out there.

And shooting isn't JUST about having elite bigs move to the 3 pt line. Its to remove his defender from the lane and to penalize teams for utilizing help. A few years ago both Vogel, then Pop took out their All NBA Def Cs in the closing seconds because they didn't want them operating in space or being forced to defend 3 point shooters. In both cases it cost them dearly. However, leaving them in uncomfortable positions away from the basket was also utilized by the Cavs in this years G7 when Ezeli was uncomfortably asked to guard LBJ at the 3 pt line on successive possessions. Having a big in the game means the offense can create a mismatch with relative ease.

Accept this for what it is, the evolution of the game.