Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[Birdie]

Man, what is going on in this thread, a pissing match over nothing.

Do people not realize how the salary cap works? BOS' "options" are severely limited in matching salaries just to fit Kyrie's cap # + his trade kicker into their cap. Even if by some chance, he was feeling helpful and waiving his trade kicker, BOS would still need to send out minimum of 3 players no matter what to get to the 18.9mil as opposed to the 23.4mil (with trade kicker). So, in essence, if BOS/CLE doesn't want Ky to block a trade by not agreeing to waive his trade kicker, BOS has to send out around 18.8m.

Seeing as CLE isn't gonna take in Horford's contract nor do I see another team eating that without some premium compensation, and BOS isn't trading Hayward, after those 2, BOS just has a crap load of small $$$ deals. Their 3 highest paid small money deals are and what "could" be a possible deal, would be;

IT4/Crowder/Tatum = Kyrie with full trade kicker

For CLE, I think it would be worth it. You get All-Star PG, a cheap defensive young-ish win-now player in Crowder and a promising prospect in Tatum for the future. And for BOS, instead of dumping a max contract on IT4, you get 2 years of Kyrie but at what cost?

Cuz BOS' present problem is, all their "win-now" rotation players are getting more expensive and soon to be capped out in adding in talent easily. Doing this deal removes 2/5 of their past starting lineup and seeing as they traded Bradley away, they would be losing their 2 best defensive players and their best offensive player.

If I were CLE, and this was the offer, I'd take it and don't look back. Go for the chip next year with LBJ in tow, if he stays, he stays but at the very least, you still got Tatum to take over at SF to show for it and can still move Love to strip down the roster as well. I think it's win/win for CLE. The only issue is what does BOS think?

[Gus McCrae]

People are overrating the hell out of young guards. Outside of Fultz and Ball, no one drafted within in the last 6 year is as good and/or has the ceiling to be substantially better than Irving.

Actually the last guards drafted unquestionably better than Irving are Harden and Curry in 2009 and perhaps Wall in 2010. no one since 2011 has been unquestionably better than Irving.

People are acting like developing your young Frank/Booker/Fox/etc will likely net you an Irving. LMAO.

Knicks should mortgage the house for Irving (anyone except for KP).

Laker and Philly fans love you right now

hey, he makes good points.

[ISayshowmee]

From rebuilding to win now Vlade ? After all the work done during the draft, you will throw all of them away for 1 so-so star ? Not making any sense.......Kings still might not even make the playoffs even with the addition of Robin.

[JeepCSC]

To do this now goes beyond selfish.

There is the selfish element of it, for sure, but there's also the "overvaluing of self" element about it that makes it a combination of sad and funny at the same time.

Kyrie isn't Kobe, isn't Westbrook, isn't Harden and so forth. He's extremely good at what he does well, and he's quite poor at what he does not do well.

Two pieces came out today that put things into better perspective. One is from Zach Lowe and one is from 538. I made posts about each article in another thread.

Lowe piece
viewtopic.php?p=57822032#p57822032

538 piece
viewtopic.php?p=57827261#p57827261

As Lowe said, it's almost unheard of for a player to walk out on a Top 3 All Time talent like LeBron. It doesn't happen. Particularly for someone of Kyrie's limited ability. It would be like Magic walking out on Kareem, except Magic >>>> Kyrie.

The flip side is that it's almost unheard of for a top 3 all-time talent to walk out on teams built specifically for them. Lebron has done it twice and everyone expects him to do it again. Kyrie didn't want to be like Wade holding the bag on the tarmac as Lebron zooms off next year. Good for him.

[RCM88x]

The funny thing is Kyrie is doing exactly what people wanted Kevin Durant to do. Why isn't he being celebrated as a hero? He wants a more difficult road to the finals to prove how good he is. He's the opposite of kevin durant, so everyone who trashed KD'd decision, welcome to your new favorite player.

The difference here is that KD could certainly have been the best player on a championship team, while that is definitely not the case with Kyrie.

The expectation for a Kyrie lead team the 7-8th seed while for KD it's a Finals appearance. That's a big difference in these sort of comparisons and conversations.

So if you're really really good you should go for the hardest road but if you're just really good you should take the easiest route? That's essentially the standard that is being set. Look I kind of get it but that still means people's respect for Kyrie should go up, based on what you say it just means that Kyrie is shouldn't be expected to take the hard route, but he should still be praised for it since it means he is more of a competitor.

I think you're misunderstanding why people criticize Durant's move. It is 100% due to the fact he chose GS, not at all due to the fact he left OKC. If he went to SA, Washington, LAC, Boston.... sure, that would have been fine with me and made the league much more interesting and enjoyable. However, he chose the team that was already the favorite to win the title and the team he had a 3-1 lead on before being a big part in his teams collapse.

You have to realize also that nothing that has come out of this has lead us to think that Kyrie prioritizes winning with this move. Its all about personal gain, because of both the teams he's listed and the team he is leaving. At least Durant cared about winning, probably to a fault. Kyrie seems to care more about playing a larger role on a team than actually being part of title contender, because that is what he wants to leave...

[Tai]

If Kyrie makes this request a year from now, no one would blame him. But the fact is you just went to three straight finals, man. And the Cavs might have WON the first two if Kyrie was healthy. From the outside, Kyrie seems to care more about ego & image than winning

Reports say Ky was upset his name was floated in trade offers. He doesn't want to be part of an organization that doesn't value him and at the same time have his fate be up to LeBron.

The Cavs don't consult Kyrie for types of guys he would play with, but they will rush to appease LeBron and keep bringing in rusted old vets that can't even contribute in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Cavs can't nab guys like PG13 because LeBron refuses to hint at his intentions.

Winning is huge, but Kyrie has pride and won't have LeGM control his career trajectory anymore. Ky hopefully learned some things and will be better.

No kidding. I have to assume most of the Cavs fans hating on Kyrie don't believe Lebron will leave, but if Kyrie at least has a feeling that Lebron wants to get outta CLE, why is Kyrie wrong to want to bolt himself before he's left holding the bag?

From Woj himself 2 days ago: www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20125888/kyrie-irving-trade-request-shows-learned-lebron

In registering his preference for a trade, league sources said, Irving divulged to Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert that he's become increasingly uneasy about a future that includes a roster constructed to complement LeBron James -- a roster that could be devoid of James come free agency in 2018.

Irving had wanted to discuss the trade scenarios with the Cavs ownership and management at the end of the NBA Finals, league sources said, but that meeting was difficult to set since GM David Griffin was on the way out and Koby Altman has come into focus as GM in only the past seven to 10 days.

Why would Kyrie imagine a roster without Lebron if he was given prior assurance Lebron would stay? Or is everyone just gonna scream "Fake News" at Woj cause his story involves Lebron?

[Profound23]

Dear New Orleans. I am no fan of yours. But you better pick up the phone and ask Cleveland who do they want besides AD. Kyrie in Gentry's offense with AD would be deadly. Cousins plus anyone has got to give Cleveland at least some kind of interest.

Kyrie with Giannis, AD, or Kawhi would be ridiculous.

[jbk1234]

To do this now goes beyond selfish.

There is the selfish element of it, for sure, but there's also the "overvaluing of self" element about it that makes it a combination of sad and funny at the same time.

Kyrie isn't Kobe, isn't Westbrook, isn't Harden and so forth. He's extremely good at what he does well, and he's quite poor at what he does not do well.

Two pieces came out today that put things into better perspective. One is from Zach Lowe and one is from 538. I made posts about each article in another thread.

Lowe piece
viewtopic.php?p=57822032#p57822032

538 piece
viewtopic.php?p=57827261#p57827261

As Lowe said, it's almost unheard of for a player to walk out on a Top 3 All Time talent like LeBron. It doesn't happen. Particularly for someone of Kyrie's limited ability. It would be like Magic walking out on Kareem, except Magic >>>> Kyrie.

The flip side is that it's almost unheard of for a top 3 all-time talent to walk out on teams built specifically for them. Lebron has done it twice and everyone expects him to do it again. Kyrie didn't want to be like Wade holding the bag on the tarmac as Lebron zooms off next year. Good for him.

I don't get the holding-the-bag narrative. If Kyrie told them after the season that he was going to opt out & not re-sign, with only one year left, he wouldn't even have to ask for a trade. Cavs would immediately put him on the block. With only one year left, he'd have a lot more control over which team he ended up with.

[Tai]

There is the selfish element of it, for sure, but there's also the "overvaluing of self" element about it that makes it a combination of sad and funny at the same time.

Kyrie isn't Kobe, isn't Westbrook, isn't Harden and so forth. He's extremely good at what he does well, and he's quite poor at what he does not do well.

Two pieces came out today that put things into better perspective. One is from Zach Lowe and one is from 538. I made posts about each article in another thread.

Lowe piece
viewtopic.php?p=57822032#p57822032

538 piece
viewtopic.php?p=57827261#p57827261

As Lowe said, it's almost unheard of for a player to walk out on a Top 3 All Time talent like LeBron. It doesn't happen. Particularly for someone of Kyrie's limited ability. It would be like Magic walking out on Kareem, except Magic >>>> Kyrie.

The flip side is that it's almost unheard of for a top 3 all-time talent to walk out on teams built specifically for them. Lebron has done it twice and everyone expects him to do it again. Kyrie didn't want to be like Wade holding the bag on the tarmac as Lebron zooms off next year. Good for him.

I don't get the holding-the-bag narrative. If Kyrie told them after the season that he was going to opt out & not re-sign, with only one year left, he wouldn't even have to ask for a trade. Cavs would immediately put him on the block. With only one year left, he'd have a lot more control over which team he ended up with.

I coulda sworn Paul George happened four ****ing weeks ago. He alongside league MVP Westbrook (love him or hate him) isn't the worst thing in the world, but let's not pretend like the Pacers did that for Paul George's sake.

Most teams that Kyrie preferred could be like "well if we can possibly get him in free agency (assuming they have space), why trade for him now?" and the rest are wondering why bother dealing much if he'll leave anyway. At least a team that trades for Kyrie now can say they'll have him for a while, especially if it's a team Kyrie actually prefers.

[axeman23]

He hates LeGM for trying to trade him, he hates the organization for constantly giving into LeBron. It's not uncommon for players to be spurned by their organizations and then want out in the midst of their contracts. In fact, it's not uncommon in everyday jobs as well. Kyrie simply cannot play another minute with LeBron. The dude is giving up his eligibility to sign a huge contract. Like he hates LeBron so much he'll give up 10s of millions of dollars. LeBron went from promising Kyrie they'll be back to the finals this year, and then giving the OK to trade him not a few weeks later.

Maybe be pissed at LeBron for being such a snake in the grass.

The only rumor I heard where Kyrie was even in trade talks was a three-way deal where the Cavs would've gotten Bledsoe & PG. Gilbert called LBJ and asked him if he would extend if PG would extend with him. LBJ said no because he didn't want Kyrie traded. Kyrie's resentment of the Cavs being LBJ's team predated any trade discussions this summer. I'm not buying that wooden nickle.

We'll eventually hear the story throughout the season. Anyways, I don't see Kyrie being with the Cavs by training camp. And if he is, the team will play miserably because the environment in the lockeroom will be pure toxic.

And if the locker-room becomes toxic, Kyrie will be a big part of that. I'm sorry those trips to the Finals were inconvenient for him, maybe he wanted the extra time off?

[HurricaneKid]

Why are so many "Cavs" fans **** on Kyrie right now? Anybody with common sense can see LeBron brings with him a soap opera of problems. LeBron is passive aggressive and he's a hypocrite. He'll crap all over his teammates for not trying hard, but willing to take a seat on the bench in the middle of the game just cuz.

Kyrie simply doesn't want his career to be orchestrated by LeBron, and he's willing to forgo a sure chance of reaching the playoffs and even the finals to pursue his dream his own way. Call it an ego trip or whatever, but it's at least refreshing that some guys won't gargle LeBron's nutsack.

Kyrie was willing to lead a young, rebuilding team and recruit stars to play with him. Then in 11 days it changed to whatever LeBron wants he gets. It's unfortunate that LeBron just wants old washed up shooters who play no defense and threw out every young prospect and draft pick to do so. This team was a joke in the finals despite having a great offense all year, and it only gets worse with age.

Anyways, Cavs fans should be happy Kyrie is leaving because if LeBron is as narcissistic as we all think, he'll stay in Cleveland to counter all the chatter of him to LA being a reason Kyrie wants out now.

I vehemently disagree with the entirety of this post but the bolded part is just awkwardly wrong. The Cavs scored 114.8 pts/100 possessions in the Finals. That's almost 11 points higher than GSW allowed in the RS. The all-time RS record is 115.6 so that is incredibly good. The Cavs defense was just horrific.

[HotRocks34]

There is the selfish element of it, for sure, but there's also the "overvaluing of self" element about it that makes it a combination of sad and funny at the same time.

Kyrie isn't Kobe, isn't Westbrook, isn't Harden and so forth. He's extremely good at what he does well, and he's quite poor at what he does not do well.

Two pieces came out today that put things into better perspective. One is from Zach Lowe and one is from 538. I made posts about each article in another thread.

Lowe piece
viewtopic.php?p=57822032#p57822032

538 piece
viewtopic.php?p=57827261#p57827261

As Lowe said, it's almost unheard of for a player to walk out on a Top 3 All Time talent like LeBron. It doesn't happen. Particularly for someone of Kyrie's limited ability. It would be like Magic walking out on Kareem, except Magic >>>> Kyrie.

The flip side is that it's almost unheard of for a top 3 all-time talent to walk out on teams built specifically for them. Lebron has done it twice and everyone expects him to do it again. Kyrie didn't want to be like Wade holding the bag on the tarmac as Lebron zooms off next year. Good for him.

I don't get the holding-the-bag narrative. If Kyrie told them after the season that he was going to opt out & not re-sign, with only one year left, he wouldn't even have to ask for a trade. Cavs would immediately put him on the block. With only one year left, he'd have a lot more control over which team he ended up with.

The comparison doesn't hold, of course, because we're trying to examine someone leaving when his contract is complete versus someone requesting a trade when, I think, they have two years left on their contract.

To answer Jeep's comment further, though, the problem for Kyrie is that LeBron is better than him. Significantly better. Which means that LeBron is more likely to come out the "winner" in all this as compared with Kyrie. Even an aging LeBron.

Peak Shaq was better than Peak Kobe, but the gap between those two was closer than the gap between LeBron and Kyrie. And Kobe played in LA for the Lakers (easy to recruit players), and Kobe played for one of the best coaches of all time.

I was just listening to Zach Lowe's podcast from today and he said "Kyrie's going to get killed for this", meaning Kyrie is going to take a public relations beating. He will, and he should. How many plaudits does Carmelo Anthony get for being 'the man' on the Knicks?

Windhorst, who was on Lowe's podcast, said that Kyrie will look bad if he's languishing on a bad franchise while LeBron is headed back to the Finals, without him.

I agree.

All of this comes back to "knowing your role" or "staying in your lane." Kyrie isn't LeBron, isn't Kobe, etc. Nothing wrong with wanting to spread your wings, but the timing is poor and you are over-valuing yourself here. Going to the Finals every year is good for one's brand.

The better player has more leverage than the lesser player because he's the better player. That's why lesser talents don't leave greater talents, particularly ones at LeBron's level. That was Lowe's point. It just makes no sense, and it particularly makes no sense to do it in this rushed (still under contract) way.

To say this another way, Kyrie isn't LeBron. So what LeBron can do is not what Kyrie can do, at least almost certainly not with the same level of success. Because he's not as good a player. Just as I may not be able to use the same pick-up lines as Prime Brad Pitt because I don't look as good as he does, or have as much money.

Durant looks good for having left OKC now because he won a title. But Westbrook also looks ok because he had a historic season, averaged a triple double and won MVP.

Also, there are no current 73-9 teams for Kyrie to be traded to.

How does Kyrie look when LeBron possibly returns to the Finals without him and Kyrie could be struggling on a non-playoff squad?

We might soon find out.

[OkcSinceSGA]

The Clippers absolutely cannot catch a break. Imagine if Kyrie had made this demand a month ago? They could have made this trade themselves!

Yeah - I thought that too - what exactly are the rules on how long after you sign/trade someone that can you trade them again?

Naw. Kyrie makes Clippers a worse version of their recent selves. Top heavy, no depth, poorly built. The current Clippers roster is superior to a straight up Kyrie for CP3 swap. Kyrie is a horrid defender and mediocre playmaker. He doesn't compliment our bigs well or address any weaknesses.

[XXBKXX]

From rebuilding to win now Vlade ? After all the work done during the draft, you will throw all of them away for 1 so-so star ? Not making any sense.......Kings still might not even make the playoffs even with the addition of Robin.

Damn.. I'm definitely no Cavs fan.. but calling Kyrie a "so-so" star is criminally undervaluing him

BK
-------------------
Lakers / Angels / Dolphins

[RCM88x]

Why are so many "Cavs" fans **** on Kyrie right now? Anybody with common sense can see LeBron brings with him a soap opera of problems. LeBron is passive aggressive and he's a hypocrite. He'll crap all over his teammates for not trying hard, but willing to take a seat on the bench in the middle of the game just cuz.

Kyrie simply doesn't want his career to be orchestrated by LeBron, and he's willing to forgo a sure chance of reaching the playoffs and even the finals to pursue his dream his own way. Call it an ego trip or whatever, but it's at least refreshing that some guys won't gargle LeBron's nutsack.

Kyrie was willing to lead a young, rebuilding team and recruit stars to play with him. Then in 11 days it changed to whatever LeBron wants he gets. It's unfortunate that LeBron just wants old washed up shooters who play no defense and threw out every young prospect and draft pick to do so. This team was a joke in the finals despite having a great offense all year, and it only gets worse with age.

Anyways, Cavs fans should be happy Kyrie is leaving because if LeBron is as narcissistic as we all think, he'll stay in Cleveland to counter all the chatter of him to LA being a reason Kyrie wants out now.

I vehemently disagree with the entirety of this post but the bolded part is just awkwardly wrong. The Cavs scored 114.8 pts/100 possessions in the Finals. That's almost 11 points higher than GSW allowed in the RS. The all-time RS record is 115.6 so that is incredibly good. The Cavs defense was just horrific.

The Cavs defense certainly wasn't good, but GS offense might have been one of the best ever too... I don't think the Cavs defense looks as bad if they are playing an offense that isn't stacked on a historical level.

[mtron929]

Why are so many "Cavs" fans **** on Kyrie right now? Anybody with common sense can see LeBron brings with him a soap opera of problems. LeBron is passive aggressive and he's a hypocrite. He'll crap all over his teammates for not trying hard, but willing to take a seat on the bench in the middle of the game just cuz.

Kyrie simply doesn't want his career to be orchestrated by LeBron, and he's willing to forgo a sure chance of reaching the playoffs and even the finals to pursue his dream his own way. Call it an ego trip or whatever, but it's at least refreshing that some guys won't gargle LeBron's nutsack.

Kyrie was willing to lead a young, rebuilding team and recruit stars to play with him. Then in 11 days it changed to whatever LeBron wants he gets. It's unfortunate that LeBron just wants old washed up shooters who play no defense and threw out every young prospect and draft pick to do so. This team was a joke in the finals despite having a great offense all year, and it only gets worse with age.

Anyways, Cavs fans should be happy Kyrie is leaving because if LeBron is as narcissistic as we all think, he'll stay in Cleveland to counter all the chatter of him to LA being a reason Kyrie wants out now.

I think this attitude will slowly shift once (if) Lebron leaves next year. Then, the Cavs fans will take a look at this whole soap opera and be more sympathetic towards Kyrie. I suspect that for all Lebron has done for the Cavs, he is going to have mixed result when it comes to popularity amongst fans. I see him being sort of like Shaq in LA. Lot of the Lakers fans love Shaq but it is not a consensus the way it is for Kobe.

[mtron929]

Why are so many "Cavs" fans **** on Kyrie right now? Anybody with common sense can see LeBron brings with him a soap opera of problems. LeBron is passive aggressive and he's a hypocrite. He'll crap all over his teammates for not trying hard, but willing to take a seat on the bench in the middle of the game just cuz.

Kyrie simply doesn't want his career to be orchestrated by LeBron, and he's willing to forgo a sure chance of reaching the playoffs and even the finals to pursue his dream his own way. Call it an ego trip or whatever, but it's at least refreshing that some guys won't gargle LeBron's nutsack.

Kyrie was willing to lead a young, rebuilding team and recruit stars to play with him. Then in 11 days it changed to whatever LeBron wants he gets. It's unfortunate that LeBron just wants old washed up shooters who play no defense and threw out every young prospect and draft pick to do so. This team was a joke in the finals despite having a great offense all year, and it only gets worse with age.

Anyways, Cavs fans should be happy Kyrie is leaving because if LeBron is as narcissistic as we all think, he'll stay in Cleveland to counter all the chatter of him to LA being a reason Kyrie wants out now.

Because all he had to do was play out the season, make another run at a ring, inform the Cavs he didn't intend on re-signing with them, and the Cavs would've happily traded him to someone on his list. To do this now goes beyond selfish.

Except it is not clear if he was the one who made the trade request public. I suspect that lot of these "requests" happen more frequently than we think but it happens in private. It is not Kyrie who leaked this to the public making a **** out of it. You can only guess who it was.

[Roscoe Sheed]

There is no mandated delay on trades. Remember Rasheed Wallace was traded to Atlanta and then traded to Detroit after just 1 game

[jbk1234]

Why are so many "Cavs" fans **** on Kyrie right now? Anybody with common sense can see LeBron brings with him a soap opera of problems. LeBron is passive aggressive and he's a hypocrite. He'll crap all over his teammates for not trying hard, but willing to take a seat on the bench in the middle of the game just cuz.

Kyrie simply doesn't want his career to be orchestrated by LeBron, and he's willing to forgo a sure chance of reaching the playoffs and even the finals to pursue his dream his own way. Call it an ego trip or whatever, but it's at least refreshing that some guys won't gargle LeBron's nutsack.

Kyrie was willing to lead a young, rebuilding team and recruit stars to play with him. Then in 11 days it changed to whatever LeBron wants he gets. It's unfortunate that LeBron just wants old washed up shooters who play no defense and threw out every young prospect and draft pick to do so. This team was a joke in the finals despite having a great offense all year, and it only gets worse with age.

Anyways, Cavs fans should be happy Kyrie is leaving because if LeBron is as narcissistic as we all think, he'll stay in Cleveland to counter all the chatter of him to LA being a reason Kyrie wants out now.

Because all he had to do was play out the season, make another run at a ring, inform the Cavs he didn't intend on re-signing with them, and the Cavs would've happily traded him to someone on his list. To do this now goes beyond selfish.

Except it is not clear if he was the one who made the trade request public. I suspect that lot of these "requests" happen more frequently than we think but it happens in private. It is not Kyrie who leaked this to the public making a **** out of it. You can only guess who it was.

There's no such thing as a private trade request if you insist the team actually engages in trade talks. As soon as you call another front office, it's out.

[BadMofoPimp]

Chris Paul may be better, but he is 32 years old and isn't going to get any better. If anything, he is about to start declining. Not sure if the Cavs would do this, but I suspect Houston would.