DeMar DeRozan is underrated all of a sudden

[Gooner]

Kyle Lowry was FAR and away the better player.

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Everyone who followed basketball closely always has said Lowry was the better player. There is reason the RAPM/RPM metrics have one of these guys as a top 15 player and the other outside the top 20. It isn't close on who was the better player on those teams.

RAPM/RPM metrics don't mean s**t. Go through those lists and you will see many nonsensical rankings.

[Jabroni Lames]

The most valuable NBA perimeter players have strong 3 & D skills. DeRozan has neither. He's still very valuable, but lack of 3 & D gets exposed in the playoffs.

[Gooner]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

It's not revisionist history, it's you not knowing what you're talking about. You literally cited PPGZZZZZ as your argument two posts prior. It's like saying Blake Griffin was a similar caliber player as Chris Paul because Blake Griffin scored more! He wasn't, because that's not how it works.

Derozan can go out and get you a bucket when you need one. That's his utility to the team, but on the whole, his numbers have consistently rung hollow throughout his career. Lowry has always been the engine that made Toronto go, and that remained true until the playoffs when Kawhi took over.

Yeah, and you always need that guy on your team. Lowry was the engine, I'm not denying that.

[Gooner]

Lowry led the raptors.

He did as a point guard, the leading scorer was DeRozan.

Lowry was miles better than DD that year. He was better than DD at everything in 15/16.

DeRozan averaged 2 more points on worse efficiency in the regular season and 1 more point on much worse efficiency in the playoffs. Kyle destroys him everywhere else. Lowry also dropped an absolute bomb on Miami in game 7 to get them to the ECF (35/7/9/4 on only 20 shots) while DD was doing his best to chuck the Raps out of the playoffs with his 28 points on 29 shots performance.

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

[skones]

Kyle Lowry was FAR and away the better player.

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Everyone who followed basketball closely always has said Lowry was the better player. There is reason the RAPM/RPM metrics have one of these guys as a top 15 player and the other outside the top 20. It isn't close on who was the better player on those teams.

FWIW, the numbers throughout the Derozan's career are A LOT worse than outside the top 20.

13-14 143rd
14-15 111th
15-16 166th
16-17 52nd
17-18 45th

RPM:
13-14 158th
14-15 158th
15-16 157th
16-17 137th
17-18 67th

[skones]

He did as a point guard, the leading scorer was DeRozan.

Lowry was miles better than DD that year. He was better than DD at everything in 15/16.

DeRozan averaged 2 more points on worse efficiency in the regular season and 1 more point on much worse efficiency in the playoffs. Kyle destroys him everywhere else. Lowry also dropped an absolute bomb on Miami in game 7 to get them to the ECF (35/7/9/4 on only 20 shots) while DD was doing his best to chuck the Raps out of the playoffs with his 28 points on 29 shots performance.

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

[dhsilv2]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Everyone who followed basketball closely always has said Lowry was the better player. There is reason the RAPM/RPM metrics have one of these guys as a top 15 player and the other outside the top 20. It isn't close on who was the better player on those teams.

RAPM/RPM metrics don't mean s**t. Go through those lists and you will see many nonsensical rankings.

No you won't. They do require a bit more thought and understanding of basketball however. They are by far the best metrics we have to evaluate players in a one metric tool. Especially when paired with BPM we get very good and consistent results when evaluating players.

[Gooner]

Lowry was miles better than DD that year. He was better than DD at everything in 15/16.

DeRozan averaged 2 more points on worse efficiency in the regular season and 1 more point on much worse efficiency in the playoffs. Kyle destroys him everywhere else. Lowry also dropped an absolute bomb on Miami in game 7 to get them to the ECF (35/7/9/4 on only 20 shots) while DD was doing his best to chuck the Raps out of the playoffs with his 28 points on 29 shots performance.

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

I don't measure it that way, there is value to mid range game.

[dhsilv2]

Lowry was miles better than DD that year. He was better than DD at everything in 15/16.

DeRozan averaged 2 more points on worse efficiency in the regular season and 1 more point on much worse efficiency in the playoffs. Kyle destroys him everywhere else. Lowry also dropped an absolute bomb on Miami in game 7 to get them to the ECF (35/7/9/4 on only 20 shots) while DD was doing his best to chuck the Raps out of the playoffs with his 28 points on 29 shots performance.

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

Maybe even 15 years.

[Gooner]

Everyone who followed basketball closely always has said Lowry was the better player. There is reason the RAPM/RPM metrics have one of these guys as a top 15 player and the other outside the top 20. It isn't close on who was the better player on those teams.

RAPM/RPM metrics don't mean s**t. Go through those lists and you will see many nonsensical rankings.

No you won't. They do require a bit more thought and understanding of basketball however. They are by far the best metrics we have to evaluate players in a one metric tool. Especially when paired with BPM we get very good and consistent results when evaluating players.

Danny Green was way ahead of Kawhi Leonard this year in RPM, how do you explain that? There are countless examples like that every season.

[Duffman100]

No, he's not underrated.

He is a flat out AWFUL defender. Just terrible.

[skones]

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

Maybe even 15 years.

I mean, it's probably time to call it quits on the back and forth when RAPM/RPM/BPM etc are trash statistics and FG% is the end all be all to efficiency.

[Michael Jordan]

I think top 25 is fair to say.

[Gooner]

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

Maybe even 15 years.

I mean, it's probably time to call it quits on the back and forth when RAPM/RPM/BPM etc are trash statistics and FG% is the end all be all to efficiency.

Yeah, Kevon Looney was definitely top 30 player last year, RPM is a perfect metric.

[Johnny Bball]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

[skones]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

If he's a top 20/25 player in the league your replacements shouldn't make you 5 points better per 100 possessions as a team period. I fully understand the context. The context is that he's being replaced in lineups and the team is consistently better over the course of 77 games.

The Spurs were a deep sum of their parts team last year. Top players differentiate themselves from that. Derozan didn't. There's a reason the on/off numbers are supported by a bevy of other numbers we have at our disposal.

[dhsilv2]

RAPM/RPM metrics don't mean s**t. Go through those lists and you will see many nonsensical rankings.

No you won't. They do require a bit more thought and understanding of basketball however. They are by far the best metrics we have to evaluate players in a one metric tool. Especially when paired with BPM we get very good and consistent results when evaluating players.

Danny Green was way ahead of Kawhi Leonard this year in RPM, how do you explain that? There are countless examples like that every season.

That one is obvious as hell, lol. You'll consistently see 3 and D players doing well on RPM because they are extremely valuable players. The two players however have different roles on the court and we have to evaluate RPM within that context. You cannot simply say a player has a higher or lower RPM or any metric without first apply context to the role and player. Take a few hours and really study the metric and come back with questions, maybe make a thread to ask people who understand stats and can help you get a better grasp on all the information we have.

FYI in case you're confused, Leonard was not an MVP level player in the regular season this year.

[skones]

Maybe even 15 years.

I mean, it's probably time to call it quits on the back and forth when RAPM/RPM/BPM etc are trash statistics and FG% is the end all be all to efficiency.

Yeah, Kevon Looney was definitely top 30 player last year, RPM is a perfect metric.

The only one calling anything a "perfect metric" is your insistence on using FG% because "you don't measure efficiency everyone else does because the midrange game has value."

Really no use continuing with you any further.

[Gooner]

No you won't. They do require a bit more thought and understanding of basketball however. They are by far the best metrics we have to evaluate players in a one metric tool. Especially when paired with BPM we get very good and consistent results when evaluating players.

Danny Green was way ahead of Kawhi Leonard this year in RPM, how do you explain that? There are countless examples like that every season.

That one is obvious as hell, lol. You'll consistently see 3 and D players doing well on RPM because they are extremely valuable players. The two players however have different roles on the court and we have to evaluate RPM within that context. You cannot simply say a player has a higher or lower RPM or any metric without first apply context to the role and player. Take a few hours and really study the metric and come back with questions, maybe make a thread to ask people who understand stats and can help you get a better grasp on all the information we have.

FYI in case you're confused, Leonard was not an MVP level player in the regular season this year.

Klay Thompson was around 170th place in RPM, and he is a prototypical 3 and D player. Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon were outside of top 50, behind George Hill and Bledsoe. Context matters, as you say, so these raw stats don't mean anything, they just serve as a distraction and food for bias.

[r0drig0lac]

DeRozan is not nor has he ever been a top 20 player and yes he did improve last year.

agree